Talk:List of elected or appointed female heads of government

Possible misunderstanding conscerning Peruvian "prime minister"?

Is the peruvian prime minister, more accurately the Head of the Council of Ministers, really to be included in this article? According to this page the President of Peru is both head of state and head of government: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Peru.

If this is true then the Head of the Council of Ministers, Rosário Fernandez, is not actually the head of government and should thus therefore not be included in the article. -- Darthdyas (talk) 18:43, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, according to the Prime Minister of Peru article, the Primer Minister is not the head of government and shouldn't be in this list. Since five years have passed with no response, I went ahead and changed that. Cheers, -- Irn (talk) 23:15, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

The United Nations' list of heads of state and heads of government (https://www.un.int/protocol/sites/www.un.int/files/Protocol%20and%20Liaison%20Service/hspmfm.pdf) includes the Prime Minister of Peru, therefore they should be included. ZBukov (talk) 07:52, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for joining the conversation! But I don't think the source you provided should be seen as definitive. I see that it's from the UN in some sense, but how official is it? It seems pretty informal to me. The website for the government of Peru explicitly states that the President is the head of government as well as the head of state, and that seems a lot more definitive to me. Cheers, -- Irn (talk) 15:29, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

@Zoltan Bukovszky: Please stop edit-warring over this and join the conversation. This is a list of heads of government, not Prime Ministers. -- Irn (talk) 16:15, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

It might seem 'pretty informal' to you, however this is the complete list of the heads of state, heads of government and foreign ministers of the United Nations' member states, compiled by the UN Protocol and Liaison Service, based on official information provided by the member states themselves (see https://protocol.un.org/dgacm/pls/site.nsf/HSHGNFA.xsp). And while it does not include the State Counsellor of Myanmar and the Prime Minister of Mozambique, it does include the Peruvian, South Korean, Namibian prime ministers whom some repeatedly delete from the article. But as for Mozambique, I would rather err on the side of inclusion and put a high state official on the list who held the title of 'Prime Minister', as I guess the majority of readers would find that relevant (and add a note to it to do justice to the point you made above). ZBukov (talk) 16:54, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

So here's what we have: the UN Protocol and Liaison Service says that the Peruvian government says that the President is not the head of government, and the Peruvian government says that the President is the head of government. Why would we go with what the UN Protocol and Liaison Service says the Peruvian government says when we have what the Peruvian government says directly? The UN Protocol and Liaison Service seems like a good source for when we don't have anything better, but in this case, we clearly have a better source. -- Irn (talk) 17:44, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

No, it's not the UN Protocol and Liaison Service's opinion, but the Peruvian government's. The UN is merely compiling information officially provided by the governments, which means that they don't invent heads of government whom their respective countries don't consider as such (hence the exclusion of the Myanmari State Counsellor and Mozambican Prime Minister from their list). ZBukov (talk) 08:30, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Right, I get that, but the Peruvian government itself directly contradicts the UNPLS, even though the UNPLS gets its information from the Peruvian government. So we have a conflict between what the Peruvian government says directly, and what the UN Protocol and Liaison Service says the Peruvian government says. I don't see why we should value the UNPLS over the Peruvian government's own words that we can read for ourselves. -- Irn (talk) 15:37, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

No, it's not the UNPLS that the Peruvian government contradicts, but itself. The list published by the UNPLS is official government information for the outside world which states that Peru's Prime Minister is a head of government. Therefore I see no reason not to include them in the list, and at most indicate in a footnote that the Peruvian government's website casts doubt over their own statement about this. And since Wikipedia is supposed to be informative, we should include information that can be relevant and indicate what makes some of the names on the list questionable constitutionally. This is why I would definitely put Mozambique's Prime Minister on the list too. People interested to read about this topic can understandably expect to see every Prime Minister listed here, whatever the constitutional nuances about the equilibrium of power between the them and their presidents. Including pertinent information and mentioning the possible doubts is more helpful than deleting it altogether. ZBukov (talk) 09:03, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

I disagree very strongly. As I've said before, this is a list of heads of government and not a list of prime ministers. We should do everything in our power not to confuse the two. I would imagine that it is precisely that confusion that led to the contradiction we face now. If you look at the file name of the UNPLS list, it's "hspmfm.pdf", in other words "heads of state, prime ministers, and foreign ministers" yet the final document says "heads of state, heads of government, and foreign ministers". I would guess that there was some confusion there - either within the UNPLS or between the UNPLS and the Peruvian government - that led to the Peruvian prime minister being included in that list. In any regard, I seem to be alone on this one, so I asked for a third opinion, and, having received that opinion, will press this no further. Cheers, -- Irn (talk) 23:05, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Third Opinion

A third opinion has been requested. I see that the basic question is whether the Prime Minister of Peru should be listed, since, under the current constitution, Peru has a presidential system in which the President is both head of state and head of government. I will offer the third opinion that, since there is an office of Prime Minister, which is normally a head of government, a female occupant of this office should at least be mentioned with a note stating that the Prime Minister of Peru is not generally considered a head of government. That is my third opinion. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:17, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for the third opinion. I really don't like this compromise because it misrepresents the official stance of the Peruvian government. However, I have changed the article to reflect your compromise, and I don't wish to pursue this any further since I seem to be alone in my opinion. Cheers, -- Irn (talk) 22:35, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Monarchs should not be excluded

Why does the map accompanying this article exclude heads of state who are monarchs; and why does it do so unevenly?

By cartographic definition, the United Kingdom can never have a female head of state unless and until it becomes a republic again (as it was under Oliver Cromwell). But Canada and Australia, both of which have the same head of state as the United Kingdom, are regarded as having had female heads of state. This is ridiculous. A female governor general or lieutenant governor actually has less power in Canada than the Queen, whose direct permission is required for certain actions under the Canadian Constitution - such as the temporary expansion of the number of seats in the Canadian Senate. The governor general cannot approve that but the Constitution requires the Queen must personally approve the order.

The map should be revised to show ALL female heads of state, not just the republican genre!

I tend to agree. Queens should be counted as female heads of state at least for those countries with no governor general, if not for all. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 20:10, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Isabel Perón

I've noticed that in the female heads of government list Isabel Perón's presidential term was cut into two parts (1974-75 and 1975-76) because Ítalo Argentino Lúder's role. Lúder's article states that he was acting president for Isabel Perón. In my understanding when somebody is acting for someone it means that the acting person merely deputizes for the incumbent during his/her temporary absence. For example if a president goes on sick leave (as Isabel Perón did in 1975) and somebody else acts on his behalf during his hospitalization, the president doesn't need to be elected and sworn in again and doesn't begin a second presidential term when he returns to his office. So Isabel was not president for two separate terms. I guess it's pretty convincing that the Argentine presidential homepage (http://www.casarosada.gov.ar/index.php?option=com_content&task=galeriaPresidentes&Itemid=62) lists Isabel as president for the term 1974-76 and doesn't even mention Ítalo Luder - after all the Argentines themselves should know who their president was. ZBukov (talk) 10:16, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Dilma Rousseff

The map is actually wrong. The President of Brazil (such as the President of Argentina) acts as both head of state and head of government and, thus, Brazil should be painted orange instead of yellow. --Rodrigogomesonetwo (talk) 02:53, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I noted this as well. Maybe someone who knows how to can change the map to correct this? --Darthdyas (talk) 20:26, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Missing

Savka Dabčević-Kučar is missing. --Aciram (talk) 20:42, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

This is almost the same discussion we're having at the sister page page on heads of state. The constituent states of Yugoslavia were not independent and not sovereign so their sub-divisional leaders were not heads or state/government. Therequiembellishere (talk) 22:45, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it is a similar question. I am uncertain about the matter. I do hope you do not consider me to be trolling; I am truly a little pussled. I confess I am ignorent about this, but this isn't about whether they really were independent states. We know they were not. It is rather about whether they were states on the paper, juridically. The Soviet and communist states were countries were reality and officiall reality were two different things. She was after all called "Pre Minister" of a "Republic". I do not know and do not claim to know the truth, I am just confused. --Aciram (talk) 23:17, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

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Updated map

Since the new Danish government was formed some weeks ago, the map needs to be updated, since the new head of government is Helle Thorning-Schmidt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andr5036 (talk • contribs) 14:38, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

List is incomplete, missing quite a few past heads of government

I'll add some past women heads of state (mostly smaller nations) that are missing, within a couple of days I hope. Was thinking it might be good to split the table; one for incumbents, and a separate table for past government leaders. OttawaAC (talk) 01:49, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

No, this list is absolutely complete. If you want heads of state, go here. Therequiembellishere (talk) 02:20, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Acting Prime Minister missing

The list also contain acting prime ministers. In that case, should Ulla Lindström be included? She was acting prime minister of Sweden in 1958. She was the first in that position.--Aciram (talk) 14:38, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

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Twice

Radmila Šekerinska appears twice and with different dates.--85.55.216.41 (talk) 22:39, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Let's remove heads of state from this list!

I propose to remove female heads of state from this article, as there is a separate article for them (List of elected or appointed female heads of state), so this results in an unnecessary and misleading duplication (giving the false impression that there have been more female prime ministers). The lead of the article ("This is a list of women who have been elected or appointed as head of government of their respective countries. This list does not include female heads of state, with the exception of leaders of presidential republics.") looks a little self-contradictory to me, because in a presidential republic no-one can be elected or appointed as head of government since there is no such position there, as the president (or captain-regent or chairperson of the council of state) combines the roles of head of state and head of government. Please have your say whether you agree to remove the heads of state, or not! ZBukov (talk) 18:34, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you in principle, but I very strongly suggest you actually do your research before deleting parts of the article. In this edit of yours [1] you carelessly removed many legimate entries, such as Isabel Martínez de Perón, thus erasing an important amount of perfectly acceptable information. --190.19.82.64 (talk) 01:30, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Dear fellow editor, the reason I removed those entries is because there is a separate article for female heads of state. So while the information is factually correct, it does not belong in this article. ZBukov (talk) 12:07, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I am extremely curious as to why you believe Isabel Martínez de Perón or Sylvie Kinigi were not heads of government. --190.19.83.160 (talk) 15:49, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

When someone is both head of govt and head of state, shouldn't they be in both lists? Nancy Pelosi is not listed here, so if Hillary Clinton is elected pres, she would be, correct? — kwami (talk) 20:00, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

In the constitutional sense the leader in a presidential system combines head of state and head of government powers, but since there is no separate head of government position, it's misleading to include presidents in this list of prime ministers. As they already feature on the list for presidents, this would give the false impression there were more female prime ministers than what was actually the case.

As for Nancy Pelosi, she would not appear in this list under any circumstance (especially not as a consequence of the election of someone else), as in the US constitutional system there is no prime minister.

And the unitary state, which you mentioned in your edit summary is a completely unrelated concept. That's about the distribution of power and sovereignty between central and local governments, not between different actors of the executive. See Canada and the USA, neither is a unitary state, one has a head of government and the other does not. Or see the United Kingdom and Colombia, both are unitary states, one has a head of government and the other does not. ZBukov (talk) 22:20, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Actually avoiding their inclusion would be misleading. This is not a list of female prime ministers, but a list of female heads of government. If a woman has been elected or appointed to the position of head of government she should be included. Whether she, as the head of government, was also head of state or not is completely irrelevant. --190.19.83.160 (talk) 15:58, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Please read the first paragraph of my previous comment. The point is that in those cases there was NO head of government position, therefore they were not elected or appointed as heads of government, but as heads of state. The argument in your last sentence about concurrent positions would only hold water if both positions existed and the people in question held both of them. But it was not the case. Isabel Perón was 'only' President of Argentina, and not concurrently President and Prime Minister of Argentina. ZBukov (talk) 22:06, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

List of female prime ministers

I see there is a separate List of female prime ministers. It has been suggested that it should be deleted or redirected here but it also contains brief comments. Would it be worthwhile to transfer these? Is so, any offers of assistance?--Ipigott (talk) 08:23, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

I know this is very late, but I think the articles should be merged and would be willing to assist in this. Xander 1993 (talk) 16:27, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Tansu Çiller

Turkey 22nd Prime minister Tansu Çiller isn't that list! She was elected and almost 3 years prime minister in Turkey. She was head of goverment! Regards, Fenerli1978 (talk) 18:01, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

China

The map has a blue color for China, but China is not mentioned in the article at all. China should be gray on the map.

This is a list of female heads of government, while what's shown in blue on the map is where there have been at least one female head of state. See list of elected and appointed female heads of state. Hopechen (talk) 22:54, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

Nicola Sturgeon

What is Nicola Sturgeon doing in this list? Scotland is not presently an independent country. Therefore, Sturgeon would be comparable to Canadian premiers, for example, rather than to prime ministers of various independent states.Anderson Rawls (talk) 16:20, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

True. Sturgeon's presence is irrelevant in this list. ZBukov (talk) 21:00, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Scotland has their own devolved government which has the power to do most things, she is the head of that government and therefore should be on the page — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.209.160.173 (talk) 13:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Whatever powers the Westminster parliament decides to cede to the devolved Scottish government, it still doesn't make Scotland an independent state (what's more the UK isn't even a federation like Canada, but a unitary state). And from an international point of view this puts Ms Sturgeon on par with the premiers of Canadian provinces or the ministers-president of German states - and they are not on this list. ZBukov (talk) 21:36, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Taiwan and Korea

The current President of both Taiwan and South Korea are women, please correct. Also, the highest office in South Korea is President, not Prime Minister, so a note should be added to the previous cases where the Prime Minister of that country was a woman. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.129.81.188 (talk) 17:39, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Merge with heads of state article?

Am I the only one who thinks having two separate articles, one for heads of state and one for heads of government, is silly? It just creates confusion and, as seen on this talk page, conflict over who should be included. Especially as a). many countries combine the head of state role and the head of government role, which makes it seem like countries that have had female leaders have not were one only looking at this page, and b). the head of state article does not include monarchies, making it seem like many countries that have had female leaders have not if you were only looking at the head of state page. E.g. the UK had at one point a female head of government (Thatcher as PM) and a female head of state (Queen Liz) at the same time, however if you were looking at the head of state page alone you may think the UK has never had a female leader. I'm sure there are similar situations occurring regarding other countries, and so it just seems pointless to have two separate pages. Willing to merge these pages myself if people agree here? --Xander 1993 (talk) 16:16, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, this is honestly a no brainer; I don't see any issue in doing so, as long as you specify the difference between head of government and head of state. You could probably just mention that a lot of them overlap and leave it at that, but I'm not sure how it'd be sorted? Like, would it be two separate lists, or would it be organized by country/country's government, or something else? Other than that, I'd say go for it. Katgh0st (talk) 20:14, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

I personally would have one list, sorted chronologically as the lists are currently, with a box to denote whether the woman in question is a head of state, head of government, or both in countries that combine the roles. Xander 1993 (talk) 17:34, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Decided to go ahead with the merger as there had been no opposition Xander 1993 (talk) 20:17, 20 May 2017 (UTC)