Talk:List of black Academy Award winners and nominees/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Barkhad Abdi

Please stop removing Barkhad Abdi from this list unless you can give a clear reason why he should not be included - i.e. that he is either not black or was not nominated. Melcous (talk) 00:14, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Hello. I see that your account is newly registered. To answer your question, I removed him because he comes from a society where a) the peoples in general do not regard themselves as belonging to the same "race" as most of the people included in that list [1] (though they likely will acknowledge having dark skin, which is a separate matter), and b) they are indeed of different ancestral/genetic background (e.g. [2], [3]). His inclusion was thus inappropriate. Also (assuming that you were the anonymous ip), please in future remember to log in. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 14:23, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

I do not wish to get into an edit war, and have moved this discussion here to give others a chance to comment. No I was not the anonymous IP, and in fact about five different users have reverted your repeated edits removing his name from this list. The general criteria for this list seems to be about skin color rather than "race" as it includes African Americans, black British, and others from Africa (Kenya, Benin). It seems to me that most people think he should be included on this list due to the color of his skin and that is why so many editors keep adding him back to the list after you remove him. Melcous (talk) 23:46, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Actually, your account and two anonymous ips reverted. At any rate, if this list were reserved for individuals with a dark skin tone, then many Dravidians, Australian Aborigines, Melanesians and Negritos would also be included; but this doesn't appear to be the situation. Kenyans and Beninians likewise do not have the distinct genetic and cultural background that Abdi's community does. Many Kenyans actually originate from West Africa (see Bantu Migration). Also, please note that WP:CATGRS discourages categorization by "race", as it's subjective ("Ethnic groups are commonly used when categorizing people; however, race is not"). This is why there is no comparable "list of white Academy Award winners and nominees" or "list of brown Academy Award winners and nominees". Instead, all the other comparable lists are by nationality or region (e.g. List of French Academy Award winners and nominees, List of New Zealand Academy Award winners and nominees). Per WP:ETHNICGROUP, this page should therefore probably be renamed to "List of African American Academy Award winners and nominees" since most of the winners are African American. I've also created List of African Academy Award winners and nominees after List of Asian Academy Award winners and nominees. Middayexpress (talk) 15:45, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Some of this has been discussed above, so I'm not sure why you didn't have the wider discussion about what this article is meant to be before simply removing Abdi from the list with no explanation. Your point is fine IF this article is to just be African Americans, but it is currently not and so it just seems odd and incomplete to include other black nominees and winners from the UK and Africa but not Abdi. Abdi should be included until it is resolved that the article is referring to a specific region, or even "race", and all people on the list only included on that basis, but currently the only consistent criteria being used for the list is color. I'm not sure who the many Dravidians or Melanesians who have been nominated for Academy Awards you refer to are. I would have imagined an indigenous Australian would make it on to this list as 'black', but unfortunately none have ever been nominated for an Academy Award. Also, your list of African winners and nominees also includes actors born and raised in the US and UK but with an African parent, isn't that a subjective decision to list them as African rather than under the region in which they live and/or the nationality with which they identify? Melcous (talk) 21:26, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Abdi has a distinct background from the other folks listed herein, as demonstrated. This issue was also not discussed elsewhere on this talk page. Sophie Okonedo and Gabourey Sidibe are listed on List of African Academy Award winners and nominees because their fathers are Nigerian and Senegalese, respectively. I see how their inclusion there could perhaps cause confusion, though, so I've removed them. Examples of Dravidian Academy winners and nominees can likewise be found at List of Indian Academy Award winners and nominees. At any rate, per WP:ETHNICGROUP, I've renamed the page to List of African-American Academy Award winners and nominees for consistency across the project and since almost all winners and nominees listed herein are African American. Middayexpress (talk) 23:09, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm tempted to move this back to "black" but don't want to get into an edit war over it. WP:ETHNICGROUP doesn't say anything about preferred "African-American" and the use of this term is a form of systemic bias. British and Kenyan actors, to take recent examples, are certainly not African-American and many would be offended to be called that. My experience on other lists is that it won't take long before non-Americans are deleted from the list because the list is just for Americans (it says so in the page title), hence the systemic bias. If you want to avoid the word "black" there are other terms, such as "African diaspora", available. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 14:40, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

"African diaspora" is inadequate as it usually refers to New World descendants of the historic migrant populations from parts of Africa. WP:ETHNICGROUP also states that "Ethnic groups have several acceptable naming conventions", and notes "African American" as an acceptable name. Since the winners and nominees are mainly African-American, that's what the list should be titled per WP:COMMONNAME. African winners and nominees are covered on List of African Academy Award winners and nominees. This is in line with all of the other Academy Award winners and nominees wikipages (e.g. List of Asian Academy Award winners and nominees). Middayexpress (talk) 15:10, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

African-American is an acceptable name for African-Americans. It is not acceptable for Black British or other variations on that theme. Citing COMMONNAME makes no sense here as "black" is a perfectly acceptable common name and arguable more common than "African-American", given that even Americans frequently use it instead. While you have now made real my expectation of systemic bias by removing all non-American black people, this list was clearly intended to be about the race and not the nationality, highlighting important firsts and achievements on that level. Eliminating non-Americans undermines that, leaving many not represented on any list (and possibly leading to the pointless creation of a separate list for black winners and nominees). I'm still tempted to revert all of this. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 02:52, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

According to Melcous, this list actually "seems to be about skin color rather than "race"." Even if it were otherwise, WP:ETHNICGROUP still explicitly discourages categorization by race. There's no reason why this one group should be singled out while no comparable "List of White Academy Award winners and nominees" or "List of Brown Academy Award winners and nominees" wiki-pages exist. In fact, the list was originally reserved for African-Americans [4]. Middayexpress (talk) 14:52, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

I'd support reverting it, particularly as the changes were made with no discussion like the one that is being had here now. I think the intention of the page was clearly to support firsts and achievements based on race and removing other nationalities makes those people's achievements invisible. As I said before, I'm not keen on an edit war either, but I think a discussion should be held and consensus reached before such wide sweeping changes are made, and thus it would be better to revert it as it was and then change it only if there is agreement from more than one person that it is the best way to go. Melcous (talk) 08:22, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I indicated above that "this page should therefore probably be renamed to "List of African American Academy Award winners and nominees" since most of the winners are African American." Also, this page was already moved to "List of African-American Academy Award winners and nominees" by User:Tenebrae well before I ever moved it, and on the same grounds too. That is, that since the list mainly consists of African-American individuals, its title should reflect that and it should also be consistent with the naming scheme observed on the other comparable wiki-project pages (e.g. List of Indian Academy Award winners and nominees). The list was in fact originally reserved for "African-American winners and nominees from 1929 to the present" [5]. Middayexpress (talk) 14:52, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

I disagree with the move of this page from List of black Academy Award winners and nominees to List of African-American Academy Award winners and nominees. Contrary to the edit summary, WP:ETHNICGROUP does not say that articles about "black" people need to be changed to being about "African-American" people instead, especially when that means that some of the actual content of the article needs to be removed. Considering that many readers of this page are likely to be interested in the nominations/wins of Chiwetel Ejiofor, Lupita Nyong'o, Steve McQueen, and other black people not from the United States, removing them from the article so that the article can be limited to African-Americans does not seem like an advantage. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:07, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

WP:ETHNICGROUP does not mention "black", "white", "brown" or "yellow" at all as acceptable naming conventions for ethnic group pages, which this list certainly is. It only mentions "African American", "Wauja", and similar other ethnic group names. The fact remains, this wiki-page was originally reserved for "African-American winners and nominees from 1929 to the present" [6]. So the move actually brought the list back to its original purpose, not the other way around. Middayexpress (talk) 13:11, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

The ethnic groups listed at WP:ETHNICGROUP are certainly not meant to be a list of all the ethnic groups that could be covered in Wikipedia. Less than 20 ethnic groups are mentioned there. Furthermore, the original version of this page included Marianne Jean-Baptiste and Sophie Okonedo among other black, but non-African-American, nominees. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 06:24, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

WP:ETHNICGROUP is not meant to be a comprehensive list of ethnic groups that could be covered on Wikipedia. It is meant to serve as a guideline for "conventions on how to name Wikipedia articles about peoples, ethnicities and tribes." It thus gives examples of the acceptable naming conventions for a hypothetical Elbonian ethnicity. "Black", "white", "brown" and "yellow" are not among the acceptable naming conventions, nor are they ethnicities to begin with. "African American", however, is, so that is what the wiki-page is titled. Also, the page creator likely assumed that Marianne Jean-Baptiste and Sophie Okonedo were African-Americans since they tend to do a lot of U.S. work using American accents. The fact remains, though, that the list itself was originally reserved for African-Americans, as clearly stated in its intro [7]. Middayexpress (talk) 14:46, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Middayexpress has objected to Abdi's inclusion on the list, essentially claiming that Abdi is not black. Aside from the numerous media sources that can be cited where he is referred to as "black" (any simple google search will produce dozens of these from reliable sources), Abdi won two Black Reel Award for this role. Those awards are "designed to annually recognize and celebrate the achievements of black people in feature, independent and television films". But if that is still not enough, he has described himself as black in an interview with the LA Times[8]. About his family leaving Somalia for Yemen he says, "Mostly black kids don't go to school in Yemen. They're poor people there. In Somalia, everybody was my family, neighbors.... Now all of a sudden I'm an outsider." He said a similar thing in an interview with The Daily Beast[9]: "I wasn't loved by everyone. Now I’m a black kid in Yemen and everyone is having a hard time saying my name." I am re-adding him to the list. 99.192.50.212 (talk) 17:16, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm afraid you are mistaken ip. That Barkhad won a minor award he had nothing to do with doesn't mean much since even Justin Bieber has won a BET award. Barkhad also does not identify as "black" in the way this list presumably does. He is strictly referring to dark skin color. The reality is, Somalis in general do not regard themselves as belonging to the same "race" as most of the people included in the list [10] (though they likely will acknowledge having dark skin, which is a separate matter). They are also indeed of different ancestral/genetic background (e.g. [11], [12]). His inclusion was thus indeed inappropriate. Middayexpress (talk) 17:35, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

(1) The BET awards is not an apt comparison. They have acknowledges that in nominating Bieber they nominated someone who is not black. The Black Reel Awards have only ever been for an onlt ever nominated black performers.

(2) When you say "Barkhad also does not identify as "black" in the way this list presumably does. He is strictly referring to dark skin color." you are your own interpretation to discount the claim he has made about himself. That is original research. He says he is black. The list is for black nominees and winners. So he belongs.

(3) You have offered no sources for your claims. I have provided two primary sources and a significant secondary one. You know as well as I do that there are dozens of reliable sources saying he is black. Can you find any arguing that he is not black? failing that, you just hove your own personal assessment and nothing more, aka original research. 99.192.50.212 (talk) 17:51, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

This list has nothing to do with that other award you mention, so it's completely irrelevant. Even if it were relevant, it's a small-time award founded by an African-American organization, and Barkhad has no control over who nominates him. Further, he does not mean "black" in the way you are using it. He means "madow", which is a Somali term for dark skin tone. There are also terms for light skin tone ("cad"), and reddish skin tone ("mariin"). However, the actual term for the so-called "race" you are alluding to is "jareer"; Somalis refer to themselves separately as "jileec" [13]. Middayexpress (talk) 18:14, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

But Abdi is not using any of those terms, he is using the English word "black" in American interviews, so it seems fair to assume that he may well mean what Americans commonly understand by the term, and that is certainly how the interviewers and readers would understand what he is saying in that context. I understand that Middayexpress finds this term personally offensive, but it seems to me that this is an issue of how terms are used and understood in different cultural contexts. As has been noted a number of times, and is explained by Black people, the English term is commonly used in the USA as a self-designation and is not commonly considered offensive. The inclusion of Abdi on this list is likewise not intended to offend, but rather to note his achievement in that context. Given that the primary topic is a US award, it seems that this perspective should be followed. I also understand that Middayexpress and others disagree with the outcome of the RfC below, and if they choose to pursue that and a different decision is made in the future, then the article can be changed to reflect that. But the current decision stands and should be respected in the content of the article. A number of editors have also indicated their willingness to revisit the separate discussion of whether this list should exist at all, and again if that avenue is pursued it may be a worthwhile forum for these kinds of discussions, but again until a decision is made, the article should reflect the current situation and include non-Americans, including Abdi. Given all this, I find it difficult to see how the continued removal of Abdi from this list can be seen as acting in good faith. Melcous (talk) 06:45, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Abdi did not speak any English until only a few years ago. When he thinks, it's in the Somali language, not in English. So when he says "black", he means "madow". This is not a racial term but a designation for dark skin tone, just as "mariin", "cad", and "cadaan" are terms for "reddish", "light", and "white" skin tones, respectively. All of these terms are used by Somalis to describe their own skin tone range except for the last one. The actual term for the "race" that the anonymous ip is alluding to is "jareer"; as shown, Somalis refer to themselves separately as "jileec". Further, Abdi was certainly not recognized by the Academy for his skin tone. He was nominated for best supporting actor in a movie, like all the other nominees. It's this pov list that insinuates that he was honored for that. And please don't deny that it does since you yourself noted earlier that this list actually "seems to be about skin color rather than "race"" (which btw would apply to many dark-skinned people on list of Indian Academy Award winners and nominees). His inclusion is thus indeed inappropriate, and on multiple levels at that. An uninvolved user has also just confirmed that the closure of the RfC was inappropriate and does not reflect the discussion's actual consensus. On his recommendation, I have started a formal move review. Middayexpress (talk) 15:23, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Your speculation about why Abdi used the word "black" is interesting, but it is just speculation, which in Wikipedia terms is WP:OR. You also have reverted the same edit five times in the last few days, so perhaps you should review WP:3RR. You are clearly violating th spirit of it and it does warn against more than three revisions outside 24 hours. 99.192.50.212 (talk) 15:42, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm afraid it's not speculation. The Academy likewise didn't award Abdi for his skin tone, so his inclusion here was pov to begin with. I also suggest you re-read the 3RR policy. I have made two reverts in 24 hours. You (at least ostensibly...) have made as many. The RfC is now formally under review, which makes your latest revert all the more unacceptable. Middayexpress (talk) 15:53, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

You say it is not speculation, but cite not a single source to back up your claim about what Abdi meant. Meanwhile, there are TWO direct quotations from him from separate interviews where he self-describes as black plus a huge weight of reliable media sources that describe him as "black". The evidence is clear and all on one side of the issue. 99.192.50.212 (talk) 16:08, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

The first link doesn't even mention Abdi [14], and in the second all he states is that "mostly black kids don't go to school in Yemen[...] they're poor people there". Even if he had said what you claimed, there is zero evidence that Abdi means "black" in the way that you are insinuating (hoping?) since that is not the meaning of the skin tone term "madow" in Somali (which, as pointed out, is only one of several such terms). Your definition of "black" also conflicts with that of the Melcous account, who clearly wrote that this list actually "seems to be about skin color rather than "race"". Middayexpress (talk) 16:36, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Clearly, you do not understand WP:GF. I quoted an entire sentence from an interview and when you checked the link on the interview and found an unrelated article, you decided that it was reasonable to assume that I had no source. Someone operating in good faith might think to put the quoted sentence into google to find the top hit is the correct URL for the article, which is this: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/23/barkhad-abdi-from-limo-driver-to-oscar-contender.html. You probably thought it better to pretend I had no source than admit that he very clearly self-identifies as "black" in that interview.

Secondly, you keep telling me that I am interpreting his words in one way and you in another way and that your interpretation is better, but you ignore the fact that I am not interpreting his words at all. The list is for black nominees and winners. He is a nominee. He says (twice) that he is black. No WP:OR needed. You only need original research if you want to pretend you can read his mind to explain why he keeps saying something that he does not really mean. By the way, he said that he is black to American publications. He has been living in the US for fifteen years now - over half his life. So if you want to claim that he meant something other than what he said, find a source. Otherwise, it's just your assumption vs his own words. 99.192.84.191 (talk) 17:31, 21 April 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.50.212)

It's not my responsibility to make sure your own claims/links are in order. At any rate, as expected, there is no evidence that Abdi means "black" in the way that you are insinuating. He means dark-skinned ("madow"), not the "race" you are alluding to (that would be "jareer" [15]) i.e. much like the "black" Tamils in this English language testimonial. This is his sister, btw. Middayexpress (talk) 18:56, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

"It's not my responsibility to make sure your own claims/links are in order." Of course it isn't, but unless you thought I was just fabricating a quotation out of thin air (which would be the very definition of not assuming good faith), then you would know that the issue was a mistaken link being posted, not that he didn't say it. You chose to assume bad faith.

"there is no evidence that Abdi means "black" in the way that you are insinuating" What on earth are you talking about? I am insinuating nothing. By "black" I mean black. That is all. He said that he is black. I have no evidence that he meant anything other than "black" when he said that he is black. There is no "insinuation" in taking "black" to mean black. You can play all the Humpty-Dumpty games you like, but it will not change the fact that he has self-identified as black, thus belongs on list of black nominees.99.192.84.191 (talk) 19:11, 21 April 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.50.212)

I didn't choose to assume anything. The link you actually provided didn't even mention Abdi, and I quite rightly pointed that out. As for the rest, you stated below that "the list is noteworthy for documenting how the Academy has homored people of a particular race." In other words, you believe "black" here refers specifically to a race, not dark skin color like the Melcuous account suggested. That is what I mean by there is no evidence that Abdi means "black" in the way that you are insinuating, as opposed to "black" in the way the Tamil woman alludes to in the link above. By that logic, the dark-skinned Dravidians on list of Indian Academy Award winners and nominees should be listed here too. Middayexpress (talk) 19:37, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Carol Channing

As much as I love the woman, does Carol really belong on this list? She's said to be only 1/4 black (Even she herself has admitted that she's not sure the story of her father's ethnicity is true), and indeed back in the day she identified as a white entertainer playing roles written for white women only. Futhermore, where was she during the civil rights movement?Cleanupbabe (talk) 10:51, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

selma and timbuktu?

The best picture section notes that Precious was the first film to be nominated for best picture with an African-American director (though he was also a producer). The Best Short Film (Live Action) notes that Dianne Houston was the first African-American female to be nominated. Is it worth including that Selma is the first film to be nominated for best picture with a female African-American director?

Also, is it worth including that Abderrahmane Sissako is the first African-born black director to have a film nominated for best foreign film? At least, I heard that was the case. I'm not sure if it's true. - 134.76.54.249 (talk) 17:41, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Academy Awards which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 13:19, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Continued reversion of Hailee Steinfeld

Hailee Steinfeld continues to be reverted from the Supporting Actress category with no explanation or reason behind deletion. Whereas no content on this page includes actual citations, the source I provide states Steinfeld's ancestry, whose maternal grandfather was half black and half Filipino. This information is enough for her to be included on the corresponding "Asian nominees/winners" page but continues to be reverted from here. There are no guidelines stating that a person has to have a certain percentage of black ancestry in order to be included on this page, so why the continued reversion? Actresses like Halle Berry and Ruth Negga, who are one half black, are included, so why is being one eighth black (and one fourth a person of color) not acceptable enough for being included on this page? Who are we to decide that Steinfeld cannot claim her African-American ancestry? Rcul4u998 (talk) 21:43, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Milestones

I recommend pruning the "milestones" to limit them to truly important ones, adding sources, and correcting them. For example, Sidney Poitier is described as an African American; he is Bahamian-American. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 13:05, 20 October 2018 (UTC)