Talk:List of best-selling game consoles/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Semi-protected edit request on 9 November 2022

HOME? (they declared it as "handeld" but not as we mean it today) Alpha Roid (talk) 00:38, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm not understanding the question/proposal here. Sergecross73 msg me 00:45, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. From what I can tell you're suggesting that one of the entries has "Home" in the "Type" column when it should be "Handheld". I suspect (but I'm ultimately guessing) that you may be referring to Sega Pico, but can you clarify which entry you're referring to, and do you have a source that describes it as handheld? You can change |answered=yes to |answered=no in the edit request template once that additional information has been provided, but as it stands it's unclear what edit you're requesting. Thanks. - Aoidh (talk) 22:01, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Old Layout

Get back the old layout. It was better in every way. Pederjo99 (talk) 08:24, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

The one with different colours for the manufacturers? I thought it was a useful aid.Halbared (talk) 09:42, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Can you've a little more specific? Vaguely alluding to a past version as "better in every way" is hardly a good starting point for a constructive discussion. Sergecross73 msg me 14:01, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Pederjo99 wants to return to when we had 5 different tables, some with duplicate entries, for each "type" of console, rather than a simple table with a sortable column with the exact same information. They unilaterally tried to restore that format, which we discussed and changed over a year ago, and their argument is simply "it was better". -- ferret (talk) 14:07, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 December 2022

I can see a mistake Alithefrisk (talk) 23:27, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Please tell us what you see, and we'll fix it on your behalf if it needs fixing. Sergecross73 msg me 23:30, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Steam Deck

Should the Steam Deck be listed here? I've read that it's a handheld pc and not a handheld console as listed here. 2A02:1810:1D82:9300:3994:F685:A5F6:7FF6 (talk) 19:54, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree ,its not a console at all. Im not sure why its listed here Gemini.skywalker (talk) 11:19, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Someone slipped it in without discussion or consensus. Sergecross73 msg me 15:06, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

That was me- see my other comment below. I would argue that, thanks to its marketing at major console game events and the out-of-the-box experience, it is indeed a console. At the very least, most consumers seem to view it as such and it seems silly to disqualify it due to its more open nature (when Playstation 2 also had "Other OS" functionality) Madwonk (talk) 18:26, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

it is a console A video game console is an electronic device that outputs a video signal or image to display a video game i guess you think its like a Pc but its pretty much an console that's like saying Xbox isn't an console because the Os looks like windows it makes no sense Nickiswerid (talk) 14:49, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

and if you are saying that it doesn't have a video game controller then you're lying to yourself Nickiswerid (talk) 14:52, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

No one is saying that. Sergecross73 msg me 15:39, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

who said i was talking about anyone in this topic? Nickiswerid (talk) 15:56, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

I've never heard anyone say that anywhere honestly. Sergecross73 msg me 16:03, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

I think the Steam Deck should be listed as: it's a standardised device for playing games, and it sells in the Switches marketplace being a direct competitor to the Switch.Halbared (talk) 13:21, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Yeah- I added it in here but I see it's been reverted. While it's not technically a console by some definitions, it's being marketed alongside the Switch and other modern consoles (as I recall the launch event in Japan even had a booth with three consoles lined up including the deck). Functionally it's a console; if we want to argue including a desktop mode/other OS is the line then the Playstation 2 shouldn't be included either. Madwonk (talk) 18:24, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

It's ok Nickiswerid (talk) 23:56, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

swtich sale should be separate in 2 lite psp and ps3

Switch have two type one you can plug on tv and the lite one not. So why put the sold as the same swtich.. it like put together psp and ps3 66.131.206.215 (talk) 12:54, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

It's not like that at all. Terrible comparison. Sergecross73 msg me 14:14, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Steam Deck

Steam Deck has now sold over 1 million units, more than some members at the bottom of the list. Given it is really a fully fledged console, I see no reason it shouldn't be added. 216.53.159.147 (talk) 03:31, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

As you can see in the sections above, there's some disagreements on whether or not it should be included. Even beyond that, I don't believe we have any official sales for it anyways. Sergecross73 msg me 03:44, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but I've seen multiple sources saying that. Yeetmaster25 (talk) 23:25, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Xbox series X/S sales update?

Could we have a sales update for the Xbox series X/S as apparently its passed 20.26 million units sold/shipped in an estimate in December 2022. The old sales figure is nearing a year old, so i think its time we had an update.

Source for sales: https://www.purexbox.com/news/2022/12/xbox-series-xs-passes-20-million-sales-according-to-latest-estimates ToadGuy101 (talk) 20:26, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Hypothetically, sure, but that source gets their estimate from VGChartz, which is not a reliable source, so we can't use that one. Sergecross73 msg me 21:23, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 January 2023

Hello, I was reading this article and saw a grammatical change that could be made. This change may sound minor but it is something I saw when reading through a wikipedia page. On the wikipedia page "List of best-selling game consoles," when reading through the notes at the bottom there seemed to be a problem with the grammar for one of the sentences. It currently says, "Microsoft announced on July 17, 2020, that they would cease manufacturing the Xbox One S All-Digital Edition and Xbox One X, though production of the Xbox One S would continue." Obviously in the sentence where it says, "they would cease manufacturing the Xbox One S," that is grammatically incorrect as it should be "of the Xbox One S." Overall please change, "they would cease manufacturing the Xbox One S," to, "of the Xbox One S." Flamerdragon23 (talk) 23:16, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: The text as written is correct. "Production" is a noun, so you "cease production OF x". "Manufacturing" is a gerund, so it's appropriate to say "cease manufacturing x." "Cease manufacturing of x" would still be grammatical, but would be more awkward. PianoDan (talk) 23:55, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Update XBOX One sales numbers maybe?

I saw a lot of things about how the XBOX One only moved about 20 million units. Is this verifiable, if so it'd move the XBONE down quite a good bit in the charts. 173.91.229.77 (talk) 16:55, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

It's a bit murky because Microsoft stopped giving official figures, but 20 million is unrealistically low no matter how you slice it. See the source in the article currently for more details. Sergecross73 msg me 16:58, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 February 2023--> new sales data

Alcabcucu (talk) 06:50, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. small jars tc 08:30, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 February 2023

It is estimated the PS sold more than Gameboy advanced. Switch postions. 2607:FEA8:F420:F400:2909:474A:82B1:1BE8 (talk) 03:39, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

•  Not done - This is too vague to be actionable. Sergecross73 msg me 04:05, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Steam Deck inclusion

I really don't think the Steam Deck should be included here, it's a handheld gaming pc and not a console. 87.67.122.98 (talk) 01:15, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

@87.67.122.98 definitely agree, the reason to include it because steam deck is a "Linux based" console is strange when steam deck is a handheld pc that plays pc games, not a stand alone platform like Nintendo Switch and other video game consoles on the list. Sponge123 (talk) 03:43, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Yep, it doesn't belong here. if it belongs here then laptops should also be here. Mytavance (talk) 03:57, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 March 2023

Steam deck is not a hybrid, nor a console. it is a PC in a handheld format. Doesn't belong on this list. Mytavance (talk) 03:56, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done 💜  melecie  talk - 04:54, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

I disagree, in my opinion it should be included, while it is a PC, it also fits the definition of a console such as

made for primarily gaming, having a built in game controller, running a gaming-focused OS, sharing form factor with consoles such as the Switch or Vita, and sharing very similar hardware to the PlayStation 5 and the Xbox Series X|S (AMD Zen 2 and RDNA2 based APU).

The only difference in practice to a traditional console is that it's more open and runs a Linux based OS that ships with a desktop you can go to, it's like how the PS2 was a DVD player and could run a Linux desktop OS, it shouldn't stop being counted as a console because of that. Lexd2g (talk) 02:04, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

A consensus must be established for inclusion. When it was added before, it was done without consensus. Sergecross73 msg me 03:27, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

PS2 sales number

The ps2 sales number isnt 155 milion its 158 milion because thats the exact sales of the ps2 147.253.54.110 (talk) 19:08, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm hoping there's some typos or missed words here, as this argument makes zero sense as is. Sergecross73 msg me 19:15, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Because the total life time sales of the ps2 was 158.7 million. Why i'm asking to change so people that were reading this article would see the exact sales of the ps2, (158.7 million) and not >155 million. 147.253.54.110 (talk) 00:09, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

I still feel like there's still a lot of typos that are confusing your point, but if you're arguing that we should change the PS2 sales figures, you need a source to verify the new number. Sergecross73 msg me 01:43, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

ok 147.253.54.110 (talk) 09:31, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

PlayStation 2 sales - Wikipedia heres one 147.253.54.110 (talk) 09:33, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

because i couldent find one wich means it will not be change but because sony ended sales of the ps2 in january 2013 and the sales most people know is 155 milion was back in march 31 2012 147.253.54.110 (talk) 09:37, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Without a reliable source, we cannot change the sales figure. Sergecross73 msg me 12:26, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

ok 147.253.54.110 (talk) 19:51, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Why dont add Meta quest 2 and others VR on the list ?

Meta quest 2 is also a gaming station that i have at home, why dont add VR on the list as gaming station ? Vr sold are more impressive that a lot of old gaming system .. 66.131.206.215 (talk) 12:52, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree. Quest 2 has outsold the Wii U so it alone would actually be fairly high up the list, and if Famicom Disk System and Sega CD on this list it would make sense for PSVR to be on here too. BecksworthTT (talk) 18:57, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Ive added the quest 1 and 2, I was thinking of adding consoles like the pico 4 but i couldn't find reliable sales data. Not sure whether to add the rift s, but I figured only standalone headsets would count here. ConallC (talk) 13:07, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Also not sure if the PSVR and PSVR would count as they are essentially accessories to consoles, not standalone. ConallC (talk) 13:09, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

One thing should be changed in Gameboy section

The Gameboy was not only the first portable to sell over 100 million it was the first console to make the milestone 2600:100D:B058:41CC:31C4:4B7C:1FC7:142 (talk) 17:50, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

 Done - Next time make a Semi-protected edit request. Arnav Bhate (talk) 11:56, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Change title from "List of best-selling game consoles" to "List of best-selling video game consoles"?

What if we change the title? The article mentions what a video game console is, so what if we change the title from "List of best-selling game consoles" to "List of best-selling video game consoles"? All of the article is about video game consoles, not other types of games like board games. What do you people think about this? Waterard (talk) 22:43, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

I'd understand maybe if it was simply between "video game" and "game", but doesn't the presence of the word "console" clear that up? It's not like "board game consoles" are a thing, right? Sergecross73 msg me 23:44, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

You do bring up a good point, but other lists do mention video games in their title, for example List of best-selling PlayStation 4 video games or List of best-selling Nintendo DS video games. Why does this article's title just mention game consoles instead of video game consoles? Waterard (talk) 02:43, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

quest 2

The quest 2 is not a console its a VR 147.253.54.110 (talk) 21:52, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

The Oculus Quest 2 is actually a VR console that plays VR games. So it should be in this article. Waterard (talk) 02:45, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Steam Deck inclusion: consistency with other list

The Steam Deck is listed on List of handheld game consoles, so it's considered a game console from the perspective of that list, therefore why can't it be listed here?

I understand some people have been saying it's a PC therefore it's not a game console, but why can't it be both? There are also other examples on the above-linked list of consoles which are also a PC, such as the GPD Win. And the PlayStation 2 could also be used as a PC. The point is, these devices were developed primarily for the purpose of gaming, and directly compete with other more traditional game consoles, so it seems wrong to exclude them just on the basis of their hardware architecture. Kidburla (talk) 16:24, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't read too much into it being on the "List of handheld game consoles" article - I think it was me who just threw it on there when I was cleaning up that article a couple years ago, before I knew there was a debate on its status, and I think no one's really noticed or contested it since then. Here, its not on there because there hasn't been consensus to add it on there yet.

Discussions on it keep fizzling out, so if you wish to pursue this, maybe its worth setting up a formal WP:RFC or something (though it may be better to do that at Talk:Steam Deck first, and the decision there would ripple out to other articles' its mentioned at.) Sergecross73 msg me 16:37, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Personally I am very much for the inclusion as a console. The primary function of the steam deck is a storefront with easy access to play any games. Just because it makes it very easy to mod, doesn't mean it isn't a console. You can put linux on a switch but is it therefore no longer a console? It's still a hybrid console. A pre-built computer mass produced to be cheap and easy to use from the box, that is what all consoles are, including the steam deck. Karstvgl (talk) 21:17, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Sure, but at the same time, if we're going by standards like that, you could say the same thing about PC's or tablets if you just used them strictly for installing and playing basic games, but no one is going to argue they're consoles. Sergecross73 msg me 23:47, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

The Steam is made, marketed and sold as a console, which is it de facto; so it should be here. It's sales are so tiny though, it doesn't really make a difference.Halbared (talk) 09:53, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

That's simply not true. The official website literally says, right at the top, "All-in-one Portable PC Gaming" Sergecross73 msg me 10:34, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Steam deck console is sold by secondary sources, like Amazon et al, and referenced by media (NYT) as a console.Halbared (talk) 20:38, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm just responding to what you said. You said, without evidence, that it was "made" and "marketed" as a console, but a simple check of the product's own website pretty clearly refutes this claim. Sergecross73 msg me 13:16, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Sure. The steam deck is made to compete with the switch (it's not it's sole reason, but one amongst many), and is marketed as a console in it's sales bumpf.Halbared (talk) 13:29, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Alright, I'll cut to the chase, since you dont even seem interested in actually proving your claims - the problem is is that there's many sources calling it a console and many sources calling it a PC. And that's why there hasn't been any consensus to include it. Sergecross73 msg me 13:52, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Sure I understand that. I used Amazon and the NY Post as an example as they are the first clicks I found when I searched to see if my memory was correct or faulty. This isn't a hardline, it's ambiguous. I don't mind either way, I have no hard feelings on the subject, I'm just contributing to the discussion. As you say above, it usually just peters out. If somebody starts an RFC, I'll participate and vote. I'm just adding my tuppence worth. :) Halbared (talk) 13:59, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

If it comes to an RFC, just know that neither Amazon listings nor the NY Post are considered reliable sources. Sergecross73 msg me 14:07, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Separate categories for Switch?

Ahem, the claim that the Switch has sold over 125 million units is very misleading. I can understand counting the sales of Switch and Switch OLED as one total. But shouldn't the Switch Lite be excluded from that count? Given that it lacks any means to output to a television, it is a dedicated handheld and not a hybrid. Thus its number of sales should be counted separately. So the Switch totals should be: 104.6 million (89.58 million original Switch units plus 15.02 million Switch OLED units); the 21.02 million Switch Lite units sold count as a separate category. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8004:5160:4CBF:24F8:66CC:3F7D:49E2 (talk) 07:00, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

No. This article doesn't specifically track home consoles, just units as a game console, which would include handheld console units as well. Sergecross73 msg me 12:46, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2023

Under the list entries for Xbox Series X/S and Meta Quest 2, specify a data-sort-value so that after sorting manually by units sold, these entries no longer appear as the least selling ones.

Specific changes:

• change from Xbox Series X/S entry:

   |style="text-align:right"    |~21 million

to:

   |style="text-align:right" data-sort-value="21.0" |~21 million

• change from Meta Quest 2 entry:

   |style="text-align:right"    |~20 million

to:

   |style="text-align:right" data-sort-value="20.0" |~20 million

}} ProperGooseMan (talk) 17:32, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done Xan747 (talk) 18:21, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Additional column idea

Should we add a column to the chart for console generations? It would allow sorting for more direct comparison easier. oknazevad (talk) 16:12, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

My vote would be no, I don't think we need another opportunity to argue about the generations. Sergecross73 msg me 16:22, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough. It's not like we haven't become pretty consistent with them across articles as is. Of course, our entire generations set up has its own odd history that probably constitutes cytogenesis. oknazevad (talk) 22:16, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 August 2023

it says oculus quest was released in 2010 2604:2D80:5B01:2100:89C7:19BD:3C3E:27C1 (talk) 19:02, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. --Pinchme123 (talk) 21:33, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Inclusion of PS VR

When virtual reality headsets are included on the list as well, then why isn't the PlayStation VR listed? Maxeto0910 (talk) 09:50, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

No, because the PSVR is a peripheral for the PS4/5 194.154.190.247 (talk) 13:31, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. It's my personal stance that none of the VR platforms should be listed, honestly. Sergecross73 msg me 13:58, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Eh, the Quest units are self-contained, and platforms in their own right.

Also, being add-ons apparently isn't necessarily disqualifying from this list. It already has add-one like the Sega CD and Famicom Disk System. The real question is should we keep those or remove those for consistency? oknazevad (talk) 16:10, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Personally im in the opinion of removing them. I feel being stand-alone should be a criteria. Gemini.skywalker (talk) 11:51, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 September 2023

PlayStation Portable units sold and position in table is incorrect

Should be >82.5m

Should be placed above GameBoy Advance

Source https://twitter.com/ShawnLayden/status/1707563288178135099 Nick1984s (talk) 16:30, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 17:42, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

PSP lifetime sales

On September 28, 2023, former Sony Interactive Entertainment chairman Shawn Layden tweeted that the PSP sold over 82.5M units, with a photograph of the final PSP ever manufactured inscribed with an exact production total of 82,523,607 units. While this information has been added to the PSP's page and has yet to be challenged, the information was reverted when I edited this page to update the PSP's lifetime total. While his tweet is obviously not an official Sony press release, I would think Layden role as chairman of SIE during the PSP's run should make him a fairly authoritative source. ShadowOfTheVoid1980 (talk) 06:59, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree, I dont see a reason why his tweet couldnt be used as a source. Gemini.skywalker (talk) 19:09, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

WP:PRIMARY says that we shouldn't accept extraordinary claims from first party sources. A brand new, uncorroborated sales figure from an (unverified) Twitter account would violate that. Sergecross73 msg me 19:46, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Also to point out the obvious, this is a production count at best if true, not a sales count. Should those numbers be close? Sure. But are they the same? No. -- ferret (talk) 19:49, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

So you're saying we can't be sure that's the real Shawn Layden because he doesn't pay Musk the $8/month for the blue check and Musk hasn't granted him a gold check. Even though the entire video games news media and everyone in the industry, including Sony Santa Monica Studio (actual verified gold-check Twitter), have recognized that as his actual Twitter feed for years. And we know for a fact that Layden has one of the last 30 PSPs ever manufactured, as per this Nov. 2014 news story from IGN. I'm not saying Wikipedia has to accept what literally everyone else is. If you all have standards for sources that high and that exacting, fine by me. Just putting the facts out there that A) yes, that definitely is Shawn Layden, and B) yes, that's one of the last 30 PSPs. The rest of you can decide what to do with these facts. If Wiki is going to be the only site on the internet to refuse to use the 82.5+ million figure, that's your call. I'm not going to waste any more time trying to put facts out there if they're just going to be rejected. ShadowOfTheVoid1980 (talk) 16:37, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

There are endless reports of impersonation on Musk's version of Twitter, but that aside, your source being an unverified social media account was only one of three issues raised. Even ignoring that, there's WP:PRIMARY - extraordinary claims should not come from 1st party sources - and ferret's note that your source doesn't even state sales, it only states production numbers. Production numbers =/= sales. Sales/sold/shipped do not appear at any point of that tweet. Sergecross73 msg me 17:43, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 November 2023

The PlayStation Portable is stated to have sold approximately around 80 to 82 million units on this page. However, recently we've finally recieved a more accurate number of units made via ex PlayStation boss Shawn Leydan on his official Twitter page. Source: https://twitter.com/ShawnLayden/status/1707563288178135099?t=m2pBeq7oRPjQgND2N_kIRA&s=19 TheLoathsomeDungEater (talk) 09:08, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. This is not a reliable source for PSP sales. All it shows is that Leydan had a PSP model with a particular number etch on it. It's probably close, but does not act as proof of sales. For example, that particular unit itself was not a "sale" as it was given to Leydan. -- ferret (talk) 14:18, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

‡ Double-dagger glyph indicates hybrid video game consoles

Is there a point to the "‡ Double-dagger glyph indicates hybrid video game consoles" indicator when literally the next column states if the console is a home, handheld or hybrid console? Seems completely needless.96.250.251.45 (talk) 21:40, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. We don't need it. The purpose of the glyphs is to provide a visual aid for accessibility reasons. But when there's a column containing the same info, the glyphs aren't really needed. We can easily get rid of the all three of them (other than the hash mark, as that's needed because the green shading shouldn't be used by itself to indicate which consoles are current per accessibility guidelines). It would reduce the visual clutter. oknazevad (talk) 03:51, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

This is left over from when we had separate tables rather than a type column, I think. -- ferret (talk) 04:44, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Possibly. Definitely not needed anymore, though. Anybody object to removing them? oknazevad (talk) 05:08, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I believe ferret is right and it's a leftover from before that column existed. I'm fine with removing it. Sergecross73 msg me 16:18, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

I have done away with them. oknazevad (talk) 02:53, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Addition of V.Smile and V.Motion to Best-selling console list

I have prepared a revision to the Best-selling consoles list to include the V.Smile and V.Motion video game systems, with a source from the manufacturer citing 11 million sold (here). The number is a combined sales figure of the two platforms, which is also done with the Game Boy and Game Boy Color. With this in mind, how should the formatting of this new entry be handled? Should there be a note about the figure, like with the aforementioned systems above? TavianCLirette (talk) 04:54, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

I am the one who contested its inclusion. There's 2 things. One, I'm not even really sure it's a video game console in the traditional sense. It's hard to tell because the article is in awful shape, but it looks more like those Leapfrog toys for toddlers.

Secondly, I'm not sure if it's appropriate to combine the figures of these two platforms. We combined the two game boys because they were essentially the same thing with a color screen added. However, we would never combine, Game Boy and Game Boy Advance because they're extremely different. I'm not sure which scenario is more comparable to a V.motion. Sergecross73 msg me 12:39, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

I have seen the condition of the V.Smile's article, it is indeed not great. In any case, I assure you that it absolutely is a system for playing video games, complete with titles played via cartridges. It uses primitive technology (seemingly SNES or PS level) & is targeted at a young audience, but otherwise totally fits the bill.

Secondly, the Game Boy Color is distinct from the Game Boy in several technical aspects, & has over 600 exclusive titles (for some reason the game list includes the GB compatible ones, that's why it lists 900+), more than the N64. The only reason I have seen that they are combined, is that this is the only figure Nintendo provided & they would be listed separately otherwise. TavianCLirette (talk) 18:23, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

No offense, but I'm really looking more for verification through third party reliable sources, not personal assurances... Sergecross73 msg me 23:44, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

No worries, that's not an issue at all - here are a few sources describing the system in more detail, describing it as being authentically a video game console: (from Wired) (from Techwalla) (from howtoadult) - surely at least one of these could have a place in the V.Smile article itself. TavianCLirette (talk) 00:26, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

I've taken a deeper search to address the second issue, detailing the relationship between the V.Smile & the V.Motion. Another post from VTech's press release states, in a paragraph about the V.Motion game library, that "all Smartridges are 100% compatible with the entire V.Smile line of products including V.Smile Motion, V.Smile Learning System, Cyber Pocket™ or V.Smile Pocket." In other words, they all play the same game library.

Furthermore, this post from The New York Times ("For the traditionalist among the preschool set, a joystick is included.") & a Wired press release ("the option of using the joystick or tilting the controller for movement control") assess that the "motion" feature of the V.Motion is an alternative to the existing joystick movement controls from the original system, not an additional control.

If these sources, along with the ones I mentioned above, are added to the V.Smile article, would that be sufficient data to include the sales figure in this article? TavianCLirette (talk) 06:57, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

I dont see an issue with this console being added just because its target market was young kids and that for some reason doesnt feel “cool” for the article moderator. It is a console in all senses so not adding it would be personal irresponsability. WOWLWOWL 01:59, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Going by what the admin said, their issue with it was that there weren't sources in the V.Smile's article saying it acts as any proper console. There was also a problem with it being a combined sale for it and the "V.Motion".

I've shown sources to address both points earlier, & just added them today; but they strangely haven't responded since asking for them.

I'll wait for any more concerns over the night (I'm in CDT), but if no one has questions, I'll go ahead & add it back. TavianCLirette (talk) 23:45, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I had completely forgotten about this discussion until it popped up on my WP:WATCHLIST just now. While I still dont believe they're generally classified as traditional video game consoles, you did find some reliable sources that mention it, and I haven't found any counterpoint sources. So I don't have any grounds to oppose for now. Sergecross73 msg me 01:03, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Why doesn't the Gameboy/Gameboy color get its own section?

What i mean by this is there are all other consoles marked for their significance to the market why isnt there a Gameboy section saying how it was the first one to cross the 100 million mark by popularizing the handheld market while also be the handheld system for over 10 years?

This comment made me realise it was pretty wierd the GB wasnt highlighted so I went ahead and did so. User:Gemini.skywalker User talk:Gemini.skywalker 12:25 , 2 March 2022 (UTC)

I believe the reason the Game Boy was excluded from the gallery before was because it'd "188 million" sales figure is a combination of Game Boy & Game Boy Color sales, making its notability contentious. I personally think the second part, that it popularized handheld gaming, is notable enough for the picture's inclusion, but the figure's importance should be checked. TavianCLirette (talk)• — Preceding undated comment added 22:59, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Sega console Brazilian variants

Shouldn't these just be added to the other entries for those systems? Yes, that would require adding the figures from two separate reliable sources, but routine calculations are absolutely acceptable. oknazevad (talk) 03:56, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

I've never quite known what the proper way is for handling this. It feels wrong to omit, but wrong to include in the original figures without proper context too. Sergecross73 msg me 02:07, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

It's never been clear to me that the Brazilian Sega market is actual Genesis hardware, or various redesigned and emulated hardware. Do they play the games? Yes. Are they the same hardware...? Unclear... -- ferret (talk) 02:10, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the Brazilian Master System and Mega Drive units are locally produced actual hardware, not emulation (which would be pretty much pointless at the time these systems were brought to the Brazilian market).

But what is "actual hardware"? You probably don't realize that Sega themselves internally revised the hardware of both systems multiple times even before the external hardware revisions for both consoles, not to mention the requisite differences between models sold in different markets. None of that requires a split out. Don't see why the Brazilian market models of the systems needs to split out. oknazevad (talk) 02:48, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

My understanding was that they were listed separately because they were produced/sold on behalf of Sega by another country. I'm not arguing that it's a valid reason, just my guess on the reasoning. Sergecross73 msg me 18:49, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I see what you're saying, I just don't think that's a reason to split them off. Being manufactured and sold under license by a third-party company doesn't make them any less units of the system in question. They're not bootlegs, and shouldn't be treated as such. It should also be noted that the third model of the North American Sega Genesis was also a third-party licensed model, and is already included in the main entry, so being third-party shouldn't cause them to be separate. oknazevad (talk) 04:35, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 March 2024

There is no official source that the Playstation 2 sold more than 160 million units. Presenting such a vague assertion as a fact without an official statement from Sony and arbitrarily adopting the sales figures seriously calls into question the credibility of this website. Zgillard (talk) 23:23, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

 Already done The edit has been reverted. You may contribute to the related discussion above if you have anything to add. Liu1126 (talk) 01:18, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 March 2024

PlayStation 2 should be update to >160 million based on confirmation of Current but soon to be former CEO of Sony Interactive Entertainment Jim Ryan stating that the PS2 sold 160 million consoles

Source:https://www.ign.com/articles/playstation-boss-jim-ryan-reveals-ps2-sold-160-million-units-worldwide 24.37.1.226 (talk) 02:14, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done Actively being discussed above. Sergecross73 msg me 12:02, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Jim Ryan (SONY) confirms that the PS2 sold 160 million units worldwide.

Sony's Jim Ryan confirmed that the PS2 sold 160 million consoles worldwide. https://www.ign.com/articles/playstation-boss-jim-ryan-reveals-ps2-sold-160-million-units-worldwide Aisenherz (talk) 14:59, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Already under discussion at #PlayStation 2 sales numbers confirmed to be 160m -- ferret (talk) 15:01, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 March 2024 (2)

Ps2 actual units sold is 160 million units. 47.247.8.186 (talk) 17:43, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

This is currently under discussion at #PlayStation 2 sales numbers confirmed to be 160m Timur9008 (talk) 17:45, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 March 2024

Abdirahman Ali buul (talk) 17:36, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

update number of ps2s sold to 160 million update nintendo switches to 142 million sold

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. -- ferret (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 February 2024

PS2's "155 million units" sales are outdated by nearly 4 million units.

We already have accurate data that PS2 sold 158.7 million units, from countless sources. IGN in their article even rounded it up to 159 million units.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1101872/unit-sales-video-game-consoles/ https://www.ign.com/articles/best-selling-video-game-consoles-nintendo-playstation-ps5-xbox

According to your current source in your wikipedia article, the author even admits that he reported on the 155 million sales only as for March 2012 (while Sony still sold 3.7 million units more within the next 10 months until its discontinuation in January 2013). Please update the numbers on the page.

"Sony stopped reporting individual platform sales on a regular basis in 2012[20][21] but continues to do so sporadically.[22] PlayStation 2: 155 million units sold as of March 31, 2012.[23] It was discontinued worldwide on January 4, 2013" Zalo248 (talk) 20:27, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Posting the same request again will not change the result. -- ferret (talk) 20:32, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I was about to reject this request for the same reasons, so it's not just ferret against this. Sergecross73 msg me 20:34, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 February 2024

PS2's "155 million units" sales have been vastly outdated.

We already have accurate data that PS2 sold 158.7 million units. Some even round it up to 159 million units. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1101872/unit-sales-video-game-consoles/ https://www.ign.com/articles/best-selling-video-game-consoles-nintendo-playstation-ps5-xbox

According to your current source in your wikipedia article, the author even admits that he reported on the 155 million sales only as for March 2012, while Sony still sold 3.7 million units more within the next 10 months until its discontinuation in January 2013.

"Sony stopped reporting individual platform sales on a regular basis in 2012[20][21] but continues to do so sporadically.[22] PlayStation 2: 155 million units sold as of March 31, 2012.[23] It was discontinued worldwide on January 4, 2013" Zalo248 (talk) 06:21, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Statista is an unreliable source. IGN denotes that the PlayStation 2 figure is unofficial and an estimate. That's not good enough here. -- ferret (talk) 06:26, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Sony official number I believe is 154 million. Yes, the Switch might actually surpass this number by the end of this year (2024). Even after the next one comes out it will still keep selling so it will likely even pass the 160 million mark. WOWLWOWL 17:49, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Please update Playstation 4 sales number

New official sales number from Sony have been published: https://venturebeat.com/2018/07/31/playstation-4-sales-pass-over-82-million-nearing-ps3s-lifetime-numbers/

Please update the reference and number. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Protomank (talk • contribs)

Nintendo updated sales on their website

total sales for the switch are now 84.59M https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/finance/hard_soft/index.html

XBOX Series s/x

Xbox numbers are well out of date, the current number sits around 28 million Hct3000 (talk) 14:32, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Do you have your source for that number handy? Even if you just copy and paste the URL here it will be a help in updating the list. oknazevad (talk) 14:56, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 February 2024 (2)

ps5 sales is 54.8 million units 2409:40E0:101D:2917:5C3:62F9:ABA7:3B06 (talk) 23:37, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. -- ferret (talk) 00:15, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Image layout

I'm not sure if this is true for other browsers, so I wanted to discuss, but on my browser the images after the chart spill over into the footer sections pretty badly. Should we move them to the top of the section so they appear alongside the chart instead of after it? oknazevad (talk) 09:18, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I noticed this as well. I tried it both with Samsung Internet on my phone & Microsoft Edge on my desktop - they are indeed affected pretty badly. I tried out a fix on my sandbox. It puts the gallery beside the list like you suggested. How does it look? TavianCLirette (talk) 07:11, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

It looks like there is a consequence for that solution too - in some mobile layouts, the images cause a gap between the header & the list. It didn't seem large in the Wikipedia layouts I tested, but the problem seems to be the quantity of images.

I moved the DS image to be with the PS2 (since it is the best-selling handheld), & took out the Game Boy & 100 million home console images.

This should help, at least. That leaves the rest of the images. Does anyone have a stance on whether these should be kept? TavianCLirette (talk) 16:59, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Semi protected edit request (made on a Sunday, on February 18, 2024)

Can you please separate the sales for the Game Boy and the sales for the Game Boy Color? Those are two separate consoles, one released in the 80s, the other in the 90s, so why bundle them together when for example, the PlayStation 2 and the underdog Atari 5200 are separate? Sincerely, 2A02:A212:2701:6D00:A4F0:361E:6AEA:50D0 (talk) 09:06, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

The Gameboy color wikipedia article considers it "part of the same product line" and Nintendo's own website lists them together when showing the sales. (https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/finance/hard_soft/index.html). If you are looking for the separate sale figures you can find an entry on the Gameboy color article. 2001:8003:EC4C:E700:415D:80AF:754E:B2D0 (talk) 10:55, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

The Game Boy Color article only considers the Game Boy Color to be "part of the same product line" as Game Boy in the same way that the Game Boy Advance is part of that product line. That's just the Game Boy brand.

If you read the article's info box, you will see that the Game Boy Color is shown to be the successor to the Game Boy & the predecessor to the Game Boy Advance. In other words, it's an independent iteration from either of them.

This isn't just word-of-mouth, though. That info comes from a Nintendo source too. Specifically, it was confirmed in a footnote of an Iwata Asks interview transcript. https://web.archive.org/web/20120329190132/http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/how-nintendo-3ds-made/1/0 TavianCLirette (talk) 07:59, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

[Request] Can the steam deck be added to the list?

It is estimated that the steam deck has passed the estimated 1 million mark with 3 million units sold up to date.

To bring more awareness to the platform that is so pro-consumer with its myriad of choice and games on sale.

The only conflict with this suggestion is that it is a pc gaming handhold. Ralimbahere (talk) 01:55, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

You answered yourself. It's a PC gaming handheld. It's not seen as a console by Wikipedia or reliable secondary sources. -- ferret (talk) 02:11, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

It's very clearly a hand held console. It simply uses the PC's game's. It's a Linux based system even, where as most gaming PC's are Windows.

Does this mean the Playstation 3 should be listed as a PC? "The original PlayStation 3 also included the ability to install other operating systems, such as Linux." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3 71.212.151.70 (talk) 21:56, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

No, because sources do not consider the PS3 to be a PC. Sources do consider the Steam Deck to be a "handheld PC" though. Wikipedia reports what reliable sources say. -- ferret (talk) 22:17, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Being a handheld PC does not exclude it from being a console though. A car can be a people carrier or a commercial vehicle or both. All PCs, consoles, Macintoshs, smart phones, tablets etc. are computers. Some devices fall into multiple subcategories. Terr-E (talk) 23:33, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, quite true. Except this is Wikipedia, and we report was reliable sources say, and the vast majority do not report it as a console. They explicitly call it a handheld PC, so we follow that. -- ferret (talk) 23:36, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply, you gave me quite the task! This is a good thing because it made me take a step back and try to objectively research this conundrum.

Going by Wikipedia:GAMESOURCES I went to every site mentioned under General gaming and General computing/technology. Weeding out some dead sites and some niche sites (like retrogaming or Japanese gaming specifically) I ended up with 24 sites from this list and looked up a review of the Steam Deck, or in lieu of a review I'd settle for a news item of the Steam Deck's announcement. Of these 24, 10 refer to the Steam Deck as a console at least once. Some of the remaining 14 do not mention PC or console and simply refer to it as "the Steam Deck" or "the device".

Several sites use both terms throughout the article ( and rightfully so ).

Furthermore, even within Wikipedia the Steam Deck is referred to as a console, appearing in Handheld_game_console and List_of_handheld_game_consoles.

Like I said, I consider the Steam Deck as a device that counts as both a handheld PC as well as a handheld console.

Therefor I resubmit the request to add the Steam Deck to List of best-selling game consoles. Terr-E (talk) 03:36, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Uhhh, this "demonstration" is kind of meaningless without actually showing any of your work. It's not persuasive at all without any evidence. If we allowed for this, I could just walk in and say "Oh yeah? Well I did a search and I found 40 sources that call it a PC!" Sergecross73 msg me 14:42, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure what you are asking of me ?

"actually showing any of your work" Do you need me to write a news article for a tech news site site and do a poll among thousands of people?

I try to play by the rules of Wikipedia as closely as I think possible, and all I get is scolded?

ferret stated "we report was reliable sources say, and the vast majority do not report it as a console. They explicitly call it a handheld PC" and I used reliable sources from Wikipedia's own reliable sources page to show that his statement was untrue. What could I have done differently?

Also by his logic, at least 7 other entries in this page would be disqualified. The Oculus Quest/Quest 2 are clearly classified as VR headsets, the Philips CD-i and the 3DO Interactive Multiplayer are, like the Steam Deck, not pure consoles, and the PC Engine CD-ROM, Mega-CD and Famicom Disk System are add-ons not consoles in their own right. Clearly this page allows for more than just devices classified as pure consoles, so why are you so hellbent on not extending this to the Steam Deck?

I feel like you guys are being too strict here. I am not trying to convince anyone that the Steam Deck is NOT a handheld PC, I'm just trying to show that even within Wikipedia's own guidelines it is reported as both PC and a console.

Please help me understand what you want from me, I am really trying here. Terr-E (talk) 16:42, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

You...think it's "too strict" to ask you to..present the sources you're talking about? You've vaguely allude to 24 separate sources...and presented zero of them. That's what I'm talking about. Sergecross73 msg me 17:50, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

No, I think it's too strict to exclude one multi-functional device from a list that already contains multiple other multi-functional devices that don't fulfill the criteria ferret mentioned, on the seemingly sole basis that ferret (also without sources) claims that one of the functions which does not qualify for inclusion on the page trumps all others.

I stated I used the sites from Wikipedia:GAMESOURCES but I assume you mean you need deep-links to the articles I found, is that correct?

If so, I apologize that I didn't catch that the first time. Terr-E (talk) 18:22, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Mentions the Steam Deck as a console only:

• GamesRadar+ https://www.gamesradar.com/steam-deck-oled-is-coming-with-a-better-screen-and-battery-life/ "The updated mobile console sports an HDR OLED screen…"
• VentureBeat https://venturebeat.com/games/valve-announces-steam-deck-oled-with-more-storage-bigger-battery/ "Valve today revealed a new model of its Steam Deck handheld gaming console."
• TechRadar https://www.techradar.com/reviews/steam-deck "The Steam Deck is one of the most eagerly anticipated product launches in recent times, with Valve trying its hand at making a handheld console."
• Wired https://www.wired.com/story/how-to-use-steam-deck-tips/ "Valve’s new portable console, the Steam Deck (…) officially launched on Friday."

Uses both console and PC:

• Eurogamer https://www.eurogamer.net/steam-deck-oled-review-a-beautiful-display-upgrade-and-so-much-more "the most extensive mid-generation 'console refresh' I've seen."
• Polygon https://www.polygon.com/reviews/23950861/steam-deck-oled-review-valve-handheld-gaming "This is my favorite console ever."
• The Verge https://www.theverge.com/23951655/steam-deck-oled-review "Valve, with the new Steam Deck OLED, may have created the best console revision ever."
• VG247 https://www.vg247.com/steam-deck-oled-launch-date "Steam Deck OLED features the same handheld PC gaming console experience as the original Steam Deck LCD…"
• Engadget https://www.engadget.com/steam-deck-oled-review-its-just-better-180038030.html "the Steam Deck OLED is still more of a Wii U than a Vita. It’s a beast of a handheld, and it makes the most sense as a portable console"

In my previous statement I erroneously counted "Edge" as a separate source, however I just realized that it now redirects to GamesRadar+, which is already on the list. Terr-E (talk) 19:30, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

It's not a distinct platform with platform specific games. That's one of the key aspects of game consoles compared to PC gaming as a category. The Steam Deck just plays PC games for which it meets the system requirements. oknazevad (talk) 21:17, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

The same can be said for the Xbox, Xbox One and Xbox Series. All x86/x64 based machines that run Windows games.

As well as the Dendy, NES Classic Edition and Pegasus which are on this list, all of which run games made for the NES/Famicom. And the Super NES Classic Edition, which does so for the original SNES/Super Famicom. Terr-E (talk) 21:43, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Not the same thing. Firstly, the Xboxes do not run Windows games, they run Xbox games. Yes, the games are easily ported from one standard to the other because of the similarity of the platforms, but they're still not compatible because of the differences, however small they may be. You are mistaken in that claim.

The famiclones are an interesting case, because they are unauthorized and unlicensed clones. Their inclusion is questionable, but they exist as systems that can play any compatible game though at the same time are limited to said compatible games.

The classic editions are closed devicesthat run included old games via emulation (ignoring for the moment that they have been cracked and modified by users). They're an entirely different thing, not the same as a console with the theoretical ability to support an infinite number of games for it. Honestly, I don't think they belong here. We don't have the Genesis Mini, PC Engine/Turbografx-16 Mini, or other such retro units listed. The only reason I can think to have the Nintendo ones is because we have sales figures for them (and because they were very much hyped). I would just rather remove them.

Either way, I don't think they support your claims to add the Steam Deck. oknazevad (talk) 23:46, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate your feedback. The Xboxes (excluding the 360) run a custom version of the same Windows OS that PC's use, and their hardware similarly uses the same components and ISA. The only limitation is an artificial one imposed by Microsoft. They have more in common with the Steam Deck than with the Sony or Nintendo consoles. I mentioned the Xboxes simply because they areas close to a PC as the Steam Deck is.

The Genesis Mini and the Turbografx Mini I assume are not mentioned because they don't break the 1M sold, which seems to be the cut-off point for this "best selling" article. The Atari Jaguar and the Ouya are also omitted with sales <200.000 units. (although I couldn't find a reliable source for the Turbografx Mini sales figures.)

Also, the "distinct platform with platform specific games" argument isn't mentioned anywhere on Video game console or Handheld game console so it seems very subjective. The argument could similarly be made that Steam itself is a "distinct platform with platform specific games". Terr-E (talk) 00:19, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

The 360 system software is still a version of Windows, just ported to the Power architecture.

Even then, that still doesn't matter. There's no binary compatibility between Xbox games and PCs, or vice-versa. And your last sentence is the fundamental flaw. The Steam Deck just runs PC games. Someone buying a game through the Steam storefront for their (Linux-based) desktop PC and for a Steam Deck gets the exact same binary. That is not true for someone buying a game for an Xbox and a Windows-based PC.

Additionally, for some further consideration, most modern arcade machines just use commodity PC hardware (or an inexpensive full PC) with a stripped-down embedded form of Windows to run the game software, but that software will not run on a consumer PC without alteration. It's a closed ecosystem specific to that arcade machine. That's part of what defines a console platform in the present day: a game binary is specifically for that platform. The Steam Deck does not have that.

But let's flip the script. I consider it strong evidence that the Steam Deck is just a PC with a handheld form factor is the fact that one can outright install LibreOffice on the unit. Once cannot install Microsoft Office on an Xbox (being able to use Office 365 via web browser is not installing it natively). oknazevad (talk) 03:18, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Your search results omits the third side of the argument though - that is not a console - and the prevalence of those results is one of the reasons why there hasn't been a consensus to add it to the article. Here's a sampling:

• Popular Mechanics https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/a42724581/steam-deck-review-handheld-pc-gaming/ "Just don’t mistake the Steam Deck for a game console. This system places all the benefits of a computer such as a desktop operating system, mod support, and highly adjustable graphics settings in your pocket."
• PC Gamer https://www.pcgamer.com/steam-deck-oled-review/ "Valve's refreshed Steam Deck is what handheld PC gaming was meant to be." (Console terminology not used.)
• Kotaku https://kotaku.com/valve-steam-deck-pc-console-switch-horizon-zero-dawn-re-1848628507 "There’s a reason the machine’s box is the size of a small bookshelf: it’s not a console, and needs all that space for…you know, so many hamster wheels. (Welcome to Digital Foundry.) A handheld device pretending it can do the same sounded silly and like the kind of boast that would fall flat on its face upon release. Ho boy, I was wrong about that. This thing’s a machine."
• Kotaku (again) https://kotaku.com/valve-steam-deck-pc-steamos-linux-jsaux-games-desktop-1849407251 "I’ve found it’s actually a really solid mini-PC for work, creation, and just everyday PC-related tasks, so today I’ll show you how to get started using your Deck as a powerful little PC in its own right."
• PC Mag https://www.pcmag.com/reviews/valve-steam-deck "It isn’t a graphical powerhouse like the PlayStation 5 or the Xbox Series X, but those systems have the size and power benefits of being home consoles. The Steam Deck is a handheld, and a formidable one at that. In short, this is a must-have device for PC gamers who want to free their Steam libraries from the desktop. Sergecross73 msg me 18:34, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I deliberately omitted the third side, because that is already the current status of the discussion.

Your quotes from Popular mechanics and Kotaku are valid, I concur. However the articles from PC Gamer and PC Mag do not mention the Steam Deck explicitly not being a console. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. The prevalence of results you talk about is not adequately demonstrated by 2 sources on the "nay" side of the argument vs 9 sources on the "yea" side. Also magazines with "PC" in the title I would not consider as objective when settling a dispute over whether something is sufficiently "console" enough.

If this was a binary decision (as in; if it is a PC it can't be a console), I would have agreed immediately that it shouldn't be on the list. My argument is that it is both. And there are plenty sources that consider it at least a hybrid of PC and console. It also looks and functions primarily as a console, with a (albeit large) handheld console form-factor and a default User interface (both the physical buttons and the software) aimed at the gaming aspect of the device, not the PC aspect.

All of this however does not warrant a consensus either way, but the result is rather binary even if the options are not. Either it goes on the list or it doesn't and there is no middle way I can think of in terms of consensus. It can't go on the list "a little bit". From the consensus page:

"If an edit is challenged, or is likely to be challenged, editors should use talk pages to explain why an addition, change, or removal improves the article, and hence the encyclopedia."

So that might give us another perspective on this dilemma. Does the inclusion or exclusion of the Steam Deck result in the article being improved? To this I put forward the following notion: Both consoles and PC's are evolving with time. The PC's have gained functionality previously indicative of a console, going from monochrome text-based devices mainly for productivity to veritable Swiss army knives of home electronics including gaming to rival any console. Similarly the consoles have since the turn of the century gained many features typically not previously associated with consoles such as audio/video entertainment and web-browsing. The Steam Deck more than any other device previously has tried (and arguably succeeded) to bridge the ever narrowing gap between PC and console.

The question on my mind therefore is "Would visitors of this page reasonably expect the Steam Deck to be on this list?" (assuming it meets the criterium of'best-selling')

And I conclude that the inclusion of the Steam Deck to be more of an improvement than a detriment to this list. Terr-E (talk) 20:48, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I see why itbcould be considered a console. Its meant for gaming and 20 years from now new games wont be able to play on it therefore giving it its own game library. But now i see the point that it is just a computer. A laptop. A uniscreen small laptop with no keyboard. I dont know, could fall on both really. WOWLWOWL 02:08, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

RfC: Is the Valve Steam Deck an improvement to this list?

Should this list contain the Valve Steam Deck? Is it "enough console" or "too much PC" for it to be on this list? Terr-E (talk) 01:15, 3 December 2023 (UTC) I would like to add a note regarding the first Kotaku source, which could be important in looking at these statements. By "There's a reason the machine's box is the size of a small bookshelf: it's not a console...", it appears they are using the word "console" to mean a home video game system. This is incorrect by a dictionary's definition of "console", but it is fairly common to see people use it that way. This CNET article is another example of this usage. TavianCLirette (talk) 09:16, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - there is not consensus in the industry or on Wikipedia that Steam Deck is a console. Such a thing would need to be decided on its own article first, not on this list about sales, anyways, so this RFC doesn't really make sense. Sergecross73 msg me 01:41, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Just because it's has a handheld form factor doesn't make it any less of a PC than a desktop or notebook. oknazevad (talk) 03:53, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

  Also, as a follow up thought, there's no such thing as a game you need a Steam Deck specifically to play. I'm not just talking the existence of exclusive titles, I mean that a particular copy of a game requires a Steam Deck specifically and is not playable on any other hardware. That's always been a defining feature of a console vs computer gaming. Every copy of every game the Steam Deck can be used to play is playable on non-Steam hardware. oknazevad (talk) 13:40, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

• Suggest leaving it out (Invited by the bot) I'm presuming from the discussion that it's PC software based. IMO the common meaning of "console" in electronic games includes software specialized for the system, not running on a PC OS. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:13, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
• Include - The Steam Deck is attempting to be a hand held console much like the Switch. It runs on Linux, which is recognized as a PC OS, but they are doing that to keep it open-sourced. They're trying to go where no console or hand held has ever gone before. Because it is Linux based, yes, it can run Linux software commonly found on PCs. These things should not be held against it. The fact that they want an open sourced gaming platform that runs on an open source OS shouldn't force a PC label on them. Look at a picture of it. It's basically a Switch, regardless of the OS. If the Switch is a "console," so is the Steam Deck. StarHOG (Talk) 14:01, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

  The problem with this argument though is that Steam deck still relies on getting games on Steam and it doesn't have its own physical media storage too. Not only that, consoles like Nintendo Switch have their own devikits to develop games. So I don't think Steam Deck should be on the list, and side note, Steam Deck doesn't have any actual sales data from Valve just yet. Sponge123 (talk) 05:36, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Existing consensus at Steam Deck, repeatedly reaffirmed, is that reliable secondary sourcing calls it a handheld PC. This is why the parent article explicitly doesn't state console. It's not a console, therefore doesn't go on this list. -- ferret (talk) 15:37, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Include - The Steam Deck obviously has a console form factor, is being referred to as a console by multiple reputable sources, is primarily focused on gaming (the PC aspect is clearly an alternative use), is made by a company with no other ties to PC hardware manufacturing but instead with a strong 25 year background in gaming. The fact that is can be used as a PC does not exclude it from being a console. Especially when the console part is presented as the primary use case evident by the form factor and the fact that it by default boots up with a console GUI and the PC desktop needs to be manually activated. The fact that the console GUI has a desktop OS basis is irrelevant, as the various Xbox devices are also defined as consoles, despite the fact they too are based on an x86/x64 ISA and run on a desktop OS basis.

Terr-E (talk) 17:04, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - Even Valve describes it as portable handheld PC and not a console on their website Gemini.skywalker (talk) 02:11, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support what is considered a computer or a pc is arbitrary depending on software, bioses and input devices. Playstation is technically a pc due to Net Yaroze, Linux for PS2 and OtherOS on PS3. The steam deck os is a hybrid os with a clear console mode optimised for gaming like a console. 185.31.155.124 (talk) 18:09, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

  Not only is that factually incorrect to each items definition, but it's implausible to follow that sort of logic, or we'd have to include ever single mobile phone, tablet, calculator, etc. It's not workable. Sergecross73 msg me 20:02, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

• Include - For me it's, "would this list benefit from the inclusion, and would Joe Bloggs expect it." I believe it's yes and yes. Good sources like NYTimes and BBC call the steam a console; retailers like Amazon call it a console, and the website themselves call it console-like. I think including this console benefits the page being by including it.Halbared (talk) 13:25, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support - I do consider the Steam Deck to be a console, even if Steam describes it as a "portable handheld PC", it would be an extension of that PC in the form of a handheld console, also the logic of the list benefitting from the inclusion makes the most sense to me. MaximusEditor (talk) 21:06, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
• Include - The list will benefit from inclusion, it's understood by an average person to be a console. As mentioned before, the list already includes devices that make use of technology not primarily meant for gaming devices. Xbox, PlayStation (OtherOS, PS2 Linux). Nintendo Switch and the Oculus Quest VR headsets make use of smartphone technology both in hardware and software. The list even includes Nokia N-Gage, a mobile phone. Tracerneo (talk) 23:29, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Include:

although it is indeed a small portable computer, my senses tell me it should be included since its primarily a gaming console. 99/100 will buy it just for gaming purposes. When its hardware becomes outdated enough to be able to play newer pc games it will define its own game library. There are other consoles in this list with double purposes or that do not function without the main console so this would just be another one of those “different” cases. It is a console and it is a pc. But it doesnt come with keyboard mouse etc so its main focus is being a console. WOWLWOWL 13:18, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Where do we draw the line? Is this an exception just because of its form factor? Because functionally, you could say the same thing for arguing to include any sort of computer or tablet to be included. All these "my sense tell me" don't provide us with a functional path forward. We can't use anecdotes and "vibes" as inclusion criteria. Sergecross73 msg me 14:08, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Yeah I understand what you mean. Its not clear but same thing happens with nokia ngage, oculus, the other virtual reality goggles. Even more as others have stated, the sega cd, the famicom disk system etc are not even consoles on there own. I think it comes down to factual numbers of units sold with this sort of thing. No i dont think normal pcs or tablets as well as cellphones fall into this category because their main function is not gaming. This on the other hand was designed and manufactured to play steam games in mind. That it has a native os too that allows you for other things if you want, sure. So does the wii if you want to install linux or windows on it you can. What i mean with senses is just a very intuitive / soft way of saying that i agree with most people, logically it should be considered a console mainly. if you want to play and maybe have an os for something steamdeck. If you want an os and maybe play things, laptop, cellphone or tablet. I guarantee you that os game developers are now taking steam deck capabilities into consideration, the person responsible for making this decision can look for sources like that to avail the inclusion. Its up to them really, its not gonna change public perception. WOWLWOWL 22:45, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm not following. Sergecross73 msg me 23:04, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, english is not my first language. Im tired from work so i wasnt trying my best at keeping the way of speaking of an american. I literally wrote the way my native language would speak but in english. WOWLWOWL 23:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Include - I don't think the definition of a console and a handheld PC are mutually exclusive, despite being technically a PC, it's still a dedicated gaming-first device with an appearance and a software experience that matches the one of a console, and there are devices on this list that are out of the box not exclusively gaming devices, like the Meta Quest and the Nokia N-Gage, both of which run smartphone hardware and software internally. It has also been referred to as a console by sources such as Forbes, The Verge, Digital Trends and The New York Times, and has been compared to other handheld gaming consoles like the Nintendo Switch numerous times. Lexd2g (talk) 04:09, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - Steam Deck is not a console at all, it doesn't have its own devkit to develope games on and you still get games Steam. So not sure why it takes some complicated tech jargons to explain why Steam Deck is a console when it's not. And just because Steam Deck is not on this best selling console list doesn't mean it's not relevent in the console market, because clearly many PC and console players do play games on Steam Deck too. Sponge123 (talk) 05:41, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Include - The Steam Deck is listed at List of handheld game consoles, so i feel like for consistency, it should be included on lists about game consoles, even if it isn't a console in the traditional sense. NowInHD (talk) 21:59, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 April 2024

Edit the PS2 total sales number to 160M from 155M. As per Playstation CEO Jim Ryan its at 160M

Source: Playstation Podcast https://blog.playstation.com/2024/03/29/official-playstation-podcast-episode-481-heres-to-you-jim/ Amolsdk (talk) 18:17, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done See discussion already present on this talk page. Sergecross73 msg me 18:29, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

The 1 million unit sold cutoff

Can this be made only to apply to non mainstream brands? Magnavox odyssey 1 and atari pong aren’t here because they sold less than this amount. WOWLWOWL 18:36, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Console weight?

“ Video game consoles usuallyweigh between 2 and 9 pounds (1–4 kg) on average, and their compact size allows them to be easily used in a variety of locations, making them portable.” This statement needs to be deleted, it doesn’t sound encyclopedic but more like a “knowhow” approximation trying to be a fact rather than a engineer data. It also has grammatical issues. To make it more professional it needs to at least address it more accurately. Give a true range from the lightest to the heaviest and specify that the bigger % lies within that in modern times.

PS3 weighs 5 kg PS5 weighs 9.9 lb Xbox one x weighs 9.8 lb

just a few examples not to mention the really old heavy hitters. WOWLWOWL 17:46, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it should be deleted outright. Weight has no bearing on best-selling console tracking. Sergecross73 msg me 17:49, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Completely right. WOWLWOWL 18:37, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Inconsistentency

Some Console Clock and/or Core/Thread Upgrades are grouped together, like the Game Boy w/ Game Boy Color, Nintendo DS w/ Nintendo DSi, Nintendo 3DS w/ New Nintendo 3DS, PlayStation 2 w/ PlayStation 2 Slim (It has a slight clock upgrade), Nintendo 64 w/ iQUE 64, Xbox Series X/S and Xbox One w/ Xbox One S. Others are separated, like the Nintendo GameCube and Wii. Others with do an upgrade on the architecture of the CPU and/or GPU are grouped together, Like the Xbox One w/ Xbox One X and PlayStation 4 w/ PlayStation 4 Pro. And some are completely excluded like the Sega CD having a higher clock speed than the Sega Genesis and the Sega 32X being Single-Core and a slightly lower Clock Speed. 2804:389:4A:F46C:7:93AC:201:3579 (talk) 11:27, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Different models of the same platform (DS/DSi, slim/pro models) are grouped together. Completely different platforms (Wii and GameCube) are listed separate. Sergecross73 msg me 11:33, 10 May 2024 (UTC)