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Disputed accuracy, unreliable sources, October 2016

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A Spanish Wikipedian contacted us at Wikipedia:Help desk § Possible hoax regarding an article on Spanish Wikipedia which had been derived from this list. There is some discussion and analysis of the sources at es:Wikipedia:Consultas de borrado/Anexo:Los 10 discos más vendidos de todos los tiempos en México, where they expressed concern about them. This list also appears to be in need of an update. Murph9000 (talk) 13:05, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Sorry about my english. In es:WP this article is in DR because it is a hoax. Most artist are from Mexico (except Durcal who lives half of her life there and sang "rancheras", many times consider another mexican citizen), but does not include artist from other countries but best sellers than these. In addition, numbers are Wrong, since the sells take in consideration in this list are worldwide, and not only in Mexico as the title indicates. The result is an incomprehensive salat that spray all over the net. Non oficial data from Amprofon or Sony Music (presumably original author of the list) exist to soport this list. Apparently the spanish article come from this list in english. MSN Latino is not online but wayback machine says it was a list with pictures or videos, no source nor official data neather. Please chech spanish DR to an extended and carefull analisys] of the sources. Also please check others articles that use the same source. Thanks. --Ganímedes (talk) 16:40, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I.e. In this page says "“Los Dúo” in 2016 was one of the best sellers of the singer with 1 diamant, 4 platinum and 1 gold, sealing 570 mil units in Mexico. Anothes example: In this list says "Tu ángel de la guarda" sold 2.800000 copies, but in México only get 4 platinum, wich represents 400.000 disks. Problem isn't "no reliable sources", but simply *fake* data. Regards. --Ganímedes (talk) 18:48, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Ganímedes: One thing you have to take into account is that the threshold for certifications was higher back then. 4x platinum in Mexico at the time was one million copies. Also, AMPROFON certifications are based on shipments, not sales. Erick (talk) 11:47, 7 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Ganímedes: Please, Erick, show me the source wich supports these numbers or your affirmation. In the meantime, we're wasting time keeping an obvious hoax and decreasing the credibility of Wikipedia. Regards. --Ganímedes (talk) 15:58, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The numbers in the table are worldwide sales. So, 400,000 in Mexico could be part of 2,800,000 worldwide. The list certainly isn't good quality right now, but the MSN source you can find in the web archive isn't necessarily the one used to create this list. The archive does not have the content of that URL from 2012/2013, which is when this was sourced; the earliest copy it has is from 2015, which could be completely different to the page used to construct this list. The best thing to do right now is to wait and see if anyone else responds to the messages on this talk page. I've added an additional tag for disputed accuracy. Murph9000 (talk) 19:15, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Accuracy of sales in this list are very questionable. It's clear that are worldwide figures and not in Mexico. Also, some of those worldwide sales are inflated if are "around the world". Murph9000 Mexico could be the "largest Spanish-language music market" or second, but is not higher that United Kingdom for example that is on top before or after the IFPI report of Global music industry markets and the best-selling album in that country is lowest that here. Also, there is not a official report from AMPROFON for example, when the list of the best-selling albums in United States or Argentina came from music sources or reports like the RIAA and CAPIF, not from tabloids and poorly sources that are copy+paste becoming a woozle effect. So there is even not possible makes a WIKIFY, or what? rename the list like: "list of best-selling albums by Mexican artists worldwide" and later create by each country?. Best regards, Chrishonduras (talk) 19:58, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, I'm leaning towards delete for this. I just don't like rushing into delete as an immediate reaction to this type of situation. I'd rather first give it a week (or less, if the way forward quickly becomes obvious) on just the talk page, with tags on the article, and see what develops. Murph9000 (talk) 20:18, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(EC) If Mexican only, Dúrcal should be excluded. Yes, Murph9000, those 400.000 probably are part of the 2,800,000 worldwide. Problem is, here never explain this sells are worldwide but *in Mexico*, see? There is no source to supports this. So no, best thing IMHO is to wait a couple days, maybe a week and, if no proove is providad (as I suspects, because it's quite obvious these numbers are manipulated), best move is to open a DR, not to let the templates sleeping more years. This kind of things give a very bad reputation to Wikipedia. Regards. --Ganímedes (talk) 20:23, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, Murph9000, when do you thing will be time enough to move forward? Regards. --Ganímedes (talk) 18:04, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'll wait 'till end of this month for sources to confirm these numbers. Otherwise, I'll see to put this article into DR. Regards. --Ganímedes (talk) 15:58, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Real and objective contribution

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A wikipedist very keeps repeating that AMPROFON has made a mistake in the sales figures and certifications. Is there any way to make him understand that he is wrong? He considers that his subjective point of view is correct and that the Mexican Association of Producers of Phonograms and Videograms is the wrong one. Isn't vadalism citing wrong information on Wikipedia? --Santiago Lodré (talk) 15:13, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Santiago Lodré: AMPROFON is right, you're wrong. They said the album was certified 4x platinum not 6x. There's not mention of a later cert after that.--88marcus (talk) 20:17, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]


Same case here:
Facebook official AMPROFON album

Please, see the AMPROFON website and AMPROFON facebook about Christina Aguilera's Mi Reflejo album, it was certified Gold in 2000 and Platinum in 2001, that doesn't mean it get Platinum+Gold.--88marcus (talk) 20:22, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@88marcus: No. In fact you have repeatedly mentioned that AMPROFON is wrong when you reverse my changes, I put that it is 6x Platinum because logically 2x + 4x is 6x. Or do you want me to put 2x Platinum + 4x Platinum to end this absurd fight? --Santiago Lodré (talk) 15:25, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Santiago Lodré: No my dear, I want that you showed me when this album was certified 6x Platinum. When an album was certified 5x platinum Amprofon website says like that: (see Amprofon website, search for Luís Miguel and see its certs for the album "Amarte es un placer" than see the official facebook which says like that: Facebook 2000 and Facebook 1999. This Luis Miguel album was certified 5x platinum in 2000, and was certified 3X in 1999. That doesn't mean it sold 5x platinum + 3 times platinum. The 5x platinum was the last cert that it got till today. Same case with Paulina, I told you before about that. It was me who made the confusion here in Wikipedia years ago, and included 6x platinum not 4x but you prefer the wrong cert because is higher, you want to keep Paulina sales completelly inflated, La Chica Dorada 3 million worldwide, 24 kilates 2,3 million worldwide... total Paulina sales = 40 million worldwide...--88marcus (talk) 20:40, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@88marcus: I think you are confusing things. It is not me who is wrong in the editions and puts Guatemala gold certification for 10,000 thousand copies (you confused it for 10,000 attendees by the way) in an album called 'Love', whose reference lacks viability (and by the way later I verify that) I think you don't read Spanish well. In the aspect of 'Paulina' I invite you to inquire, because far from that AMPROFON certified 2X PLATINUM + 4X PLATINUM (so that you understand better) it was certified in a Mexican TV program with 2x diamond, I suppose if you are a fan of it You should know that the disc was certified diamond because it sold 2 million copies. --Santiago Lodré (talk) 15:50, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Santiago Lodré: Guatemala certs platinum in the 90s for 10,000 copies shipped. We're using other charts to certs in Latin countries beside the official ones, since long time ago, it's not only me. You want to include here a shop website as a source, do you think this is reliable? Paulina was certified 2x Diamond worldwide not only in Mexico, you can watch carefully the program by yourself in Youtube.--88marcus (talk) 21:10, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@88marcus: Again, you should worry about not understanding what you read. At no time did I write that I had sold 'Paulina' 2 million copies in Mexico. I invite you to read it again, as well as your endless doubts with AMPROFON and the 10,000 copies of 'Love' that you confuse with 10,000 attendees. Do you understand the difference? --Santiago Lodré (talk) 16:44, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Santiago Lodré:Only the highest level of Platinum certification should be included. For example, if an album was certified in Mexico or else where 2x Platinum in the past, and later 4x Platinum, it means the sales for it reached the level of 4x Platinum, thus the certifying body, in this case Amprofon has issued 4x Platinum which corresponds with the sales that is at the level of 4x Platinum. In other words, once higher level of Platinum certifications are issued by certifying bodies, the earlier/lower level of Platinum certifications are to be ignored. While Aprofon has a bit different way of posting their certifications, the higher level of Platinum certs is what matter. Unless it is posted by Amprofon Platinum + Gold, then you include both, but this is not the case here you're discussing.--Harout72 (talk) 13:22, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Harout72: Hi. Of course, I understand the point of view, but I think we are omitting that by 2003 Amprofon modified the level of certification. I would like to get to the bottom of this, because if necessary, if 'Paulina' certified 4x Platinum as they say, where are the other 2x Platinum certificates? Could you channel me with someone to help me with this? --Santiago Lodré (talk) 10:19, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Santiago Lodré: An album is certified in Mexico based in the year it was released. If Paulina got 5x platinum cert is for 750,000 sold. Thriller by Michael Jackson is an exemple for that.--88marcus (talk) 18:12, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Santiago Lodré: The certifications issued by Amprofon for albums are based on release dates. In other words, if an album such as Paulina was released in May 2000, and was certified 4x Platinum in 2001, Amprofon applies 150,000 for each Platinum certification, it is 600,000 units for 4x Platinum. So just to clarify this for you, the 2x Platinum issued before 4x Platinum, was for sales of 300,000 units or more, however, when the sales for that album reached 600,000 units or more, Amprofon issued 4x Platinum for sales of 600,000 or more. So the earlier 2x Platinum are not lost, but they are included and or are part of the 4x Platinum. The certification levels for Amprofon can be found here.--Harout72 (talk) 00:32, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with both Harout and Marcus's point of view BTW. And just a quick opinion, any source saying that her album sold 2/3 million just in Mexico are hoaxes. Chrishonduras (talk) 00:48, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Claimed sales

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@Apoxyomenus: Thank you for the update. The 8 million sold for Juan Gabriel album came from here [1], which claims sales of 7.5 million for Romance and 4.5 million for Busca Una Mujer which is completely impossible.For example Brazil is a bigger market and I think no one reached the 4 million mark. Regards.Franlm14 (talk) 03:27, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Franlm14: I was aware of that article but not sure at all regarding Juan Gabriel's album. I've deleted his record on the table. No opinion yet about the two albums with five million claimed sales. Maybe a third opinion could bring light. If you happen to know other records before 1999 with sales of over 800,000 let include them. El Siglo del Torreon and other archive onlines contains good accountings. I didn't have included post-1999 albums such as A Corazon Abierto and Mediocre both with over 800,000 claims, but lack of evidence. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 03:44, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Billboard claimed 4 million for Secretos worldwide? [2] Franlm14 (talk) 03:51, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Íntimamente by Emmanuel: Ha alcanzado casi cuatro millones de copias a mas de seis años de haber sido lanzado. [3] Worldwide???Franlm14 (talk) 04:05, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Unlike the others one, both sources doesn't specify either if sales are from Mexico or worldwide. At least those source you pointed out are of pre-Wikipedia era (or the globalized Wikipedia era). Figures are keep but just in prose; unless you or other disagree to remove them. Perhaps, is something that happened like many of albums listed by Rotativo source, which seems more worldwide sales than Mexican figures. Depends also in the market but it could be possible to have a difference of millions in regards one or two titles against the rest in the list. An example can seen with First Love in Japan which remains unbeaten. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 04:38, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's why I don't trust in sources post wikipedia, Luis Miguel for instance has been vandalised by "fans" since then. AMPROFON is not very good scanning sales neither, his database don't update the certifications unless is requested by a record company (I think), because of that is almost impossible to determinate the best selling albums of all times. Franlm14 (talk) 05:01, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Franlm14: Sure I also agree. That's why I used to say pre-Wikipedia references and also AMPROFON seems to work based in requests by record labels, like others do. However, in regards Emmanuel and Jose Jose and their claimed sales: Seems that 5 million copies each isn't outlier, even if are post-Wikipedia figures. If we look at the references, 2 million and above were reported in their first decade (or to say even before their 4th anniversary) of their releases. Thus, having doubling figures after 40 years, seems its quite possible --Apoxyomenus (talk) 17:27, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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