Talk:List of best-selling Latin music artists

Enrique Iglesias

Ash Salvatore Before make a edit like that, please use the talk page. Also, look at his discussion in his main article. Those sales are primary sources and highly inflated thanks to Wikipedia vandalism. If you desagree please reach a consensus. Otherwise, avoid to make disrupt editions. Thanks. --Chrishonduras (talk) 17:47, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Excuse me? How are these sales inflanted? Wud u like to explain!? Ash Salvatore (talk) 17:54, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

@Ash Salvatore: Analyzing Enrique Iglesias' sales since when they (his record company) started being published on his website and in the media, it is possible to see how inflated the sales are now. In 1999, he had sold 13 million copies with his first three releases. link

In 2007, the media and the singer's official website spoke of over 40 million after the release of five more records, some sold more than 5 million and the number is very understandable.

• The offical website 2008 link
• Billboard article from 2007: link
• The independent 2007: link

But after that time Enrique released only two CDs, each of them did not even sell 2 million copies worldwide, also the recording industry changed, singles started to sell more than albums, but Iglesias’s official website and others websites stated that the singer sold more than 100 million records, some even speak of more than 180 million link, numbers that are totally improbable and different from what can be determined by his certifications and performances on charts.

Enrique has about 45 million certified copies to date.link Including his sales between 60 and 70 million is more accurate.--88marcus (talk) 18:08, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

As I told you: If you desagree please reach a consensus- his worldwide sales up to 70 million even doesn't match with his certifications. And yes, 70 to 170M or 80 to 180 are just thanks to Wikipedia vandalism. Now we have "reliable sources" supporting those amounts but its a "woozle effect".. Also, if you're the IP from Africa (196.194.184.100) who changed a moment ago his worldwide sales, you may be aware of a conflict of interest, an account used just with a particular subject. --Chrishonduras (talk) 18:13, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Ummm!!! Are you aware he has sold over 40m units bw 2010 to 2019 alone!!! And over here im talking about Certified sales from Each country... And you you're telling me he sold only 30ms from 95 to 2010 "15" years... Just funny Ash Salvatore (talk) 18:27, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Ash Salvatore: 88marcus is showing you proofs and a solid argument. And you just "think" because is "the truth" based on a bunch of sources indicating 170/180M that after all, are primary information. Also, your argument in edit summaries like "because newer sources shows 100/170/180M we need to put them" is not valid, since we have other "truth" of sources that aren't old at all, showing 60/70 million. And it's ilogical if we think he sold "50 up to 100 million" in matters of 5 or 6 years. --Chrishonduras (talk) 18:36, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

"Bailando" alone!!!! Sold over 8 million copies 2014!!! Listen you're not a fan and you havent been following him its maybe logical for u to assume that!!! But we are living in a streaming Era and spotify has taken over sales era!!! Nd Enriques been one of most stream latin artist !!!!! Most of his new songs have 100s of million steams! There for its not possible for him to still sell is a childish argument Ash Salvatore (talk) 18:54, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

So then, reach a consensus. Otherwise, making a revert to more than 2 users, and possible using an IP makes it a disruptive context. Not just because we have "the next available sales" we will "put them" in Wikipedia. In that case, use inflate sales of The Beatles, Elvis Presley & Michael Jackson for 1 billion or Madonna with 500 million and so on... because "it's a new era" and they sold well in all formats since their debuts... But Wikipedia doesn't work like that... in that cases as i told you one more time: consensus is the key and that's why we also based on all artist certifications to avoid inflated figures practiced by fans, press, record companies etc. If you don't like it, you may consider work in a fan page or something like that where the author will be free to write freely based in his/her own conjetures. --Chrishonduras (talk) 19:08, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

[+]

Not added yet

1. J Balvin: 35 million singles and four million albums
2. Maria Bethânia: 26 million
3. Nelson Gonçalves: 75 million (higher claims: 78M/80M; 36M: 1982)
4. Daniela Romo: 17 million/15 million
5. Maná: 20 million/15 million (higher claims: 30M/35M/40M)
6. Jon Secada: 20 million
7. Alejandro Sanz: 20 million/22(higher claims: 25M /35M)
8. Ramon "Palito" Ortega: 15 million
9. Gloria Trevi: 15 million (higher claims: 20M/30M)
10. Lupita D'Alessio: 20 million/24 million (higher claims: 28M/30M)
11. Timbiriche: 20 million/+ (higher claims: 30M/+)
12. Ricardo Montaner: 20 million/+/+ (higher claims: 22M/25M/30M/+/35M)
13. José Luis Rodríguez: 15 million
14. Yuri: 15 million/20 million/+ (higher claims: 25M/30M)
15. Lucero: 20 million/+ (higher claims: 27M/30M/40M)
16. Alejandro Fernández: 20 million / million/12 million (2006) (higher claims: 30M/35M)
17. Ana Gabriel: 20 million/+ (higher claims: 45M/50M/100M/+)
18. Mecano: 25 million/20 million/16 million/15 million/+
19. Soda Stereo: 17 million/+/15 million (book) (higher claims: 20M)
20. Pimpinela: 18 million/+/15 million (higher claims: 20M/25M/30M)
21. Antonio Aguilar: 25 million
22. Pedro Infante: 25,3 million
23. Miguel Bosé: 15 million/+ (higher claims: 25M/30M/35M/40M; 10M: 2002)
24. Los Chichos: 15 million/17 million/20 million/ 22 million
25. Cypress Hill: 15 million/18 million (higher claims: 20M/40M/46M)
26. Diomedes Díaz: 15 million/16 million/18 million/ 20 million/10 million (1996)
27. Los del Río: 15 million/20 million
28. Belinda: 16 million (seems inflated)
29. Jeanette: 50 million (seems inflated)
30. Álex Lora/El Tri: 30 million (seems inflated)
31. Tiziano Ferro: 15 million (no better sources)

Notorious Gap (-15 million)

1. Fey: 20 million but also 10 million/+/12 million
2. Ricardo Arjona: 20 million but also 12 million (higher claims: 30M/40M.../80M)
3. Jenni Rivera: 15 million but also 10 million (higher claims: 20M/+/25M)
4. Franco De Vita: 20 million but also 12 million (higher claims: 25M/30M)
5. Pepe Aguilar: 15 million but also 12 million/13 million/+/10 million/+ (in MEX)
6. Julieta Venegas: 20 million but also 12 million/10 million
7. Sandro: 20 million but also 10 million/8 million
8. Valeria Lynch: 15 million but also 10 million/+
9. Alejandra Guzmán: 15 million/+ but also 10 million/5 million (higher claims: 20M/30M/+)
10. Manuel Mijares: 20 million/17 million but also 10 million (higher claims: 22M)
11. Carlos Vives: 20 million but also 14 million/+/12 million (higher claims: 30M/+)
12. Joan Sebastian: 20 million but also 12 million
13. Emmanuel: 17 million but also 10 million (higher claims: 35M)
14. Cristian Castro: 20 million but also 10 million/8 million (2007) (higher claims: 25M)
15. Pandora: 15 million but also 10 million/8 million

Some current artists

1. Juan Luis Guerra: 15 million/14 million/+
2. Paulina Rubio: 18 million (Paulina album; 2 million)/17 million/16 million
3. Los Temerarios: 18 million
4. Juan Gabriel: 30 million (2002) (done with 60M as second claim)
5. Los Tigres del Norte: 30 million/+/+
6. Jennifer Lopez: 50 million records (Google Books)
7. Selena: 28 million records (before she passed away)/30 million/40 million
8. Luis Miguel: 50 million (2006) / + (2003) (done with 52M as second claim)
9. Eros Ramazzotti: 30 million (2003)
10. Rocío Jurado: 25 million/16 million/+
11. Gloria Estefan: 70 million/90 million
12. Daddy Yankee: 25 million/+
13. Vicente Fernández: 45 million/40 million

--Apoxyomenus (talk) 21:12, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

@88marcus: Since you're one of the few active users on this list, maybe you can consider give your opinion about my proposal below.

I don't know all of them, btw, but they have in most cases, "reliable sources" that I found in my research. It's pretty difficult to assure what are their realistic sales, because seems we just know certifications of few artists like Shakira, Julio & Enrique Iglesias. And I noted, like with almost any artist, they have inflated sales thanks to primary sources (e.g. a record label) and vandalism in Wikipedia. So don't surprise to see a claim of 250 million records for José José by media like CNN (example) or Camilo Sesto (100, 120, 180, 80 million etc).

I was thinking add the first group with their lower/middle sales claims, that are more realistic than their others figures, except numbers 28, 29, 30 & 31 that actually i'm not sure in their cases. With the second group, i'm not sure as well. Some of them have 15/20 million along with fewer 15M and more than 20M at the same time. Maybe we can follow the "formula" of the albums with diamond status in the USA with fewer than 10 million copies and create a different section with their cases. And the last group, many of the current artists on the list have the same problems with inflated sales due primary sources/vandalism, so we can downgrade or change their sales with a kind of consensus. I recently added on the list, other secondary sales claims like with Juan Gabriel, Marco Antonio Solís, etc but we can also re-evaluate and have just their "realistic sales" or at least, based on the "realistic figures" change their group but mainting at the same time both figures. Just let me know your 2cents if you have time, ofc. Thanks: --Apoxyomenus (talk) 07:10, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

@Apoxyomenus: Perfect, I agree with everything. But I have to point about Timbiriche, they're a local act, and there's no indication that any of their albums sold millions and millions of copies to be listed with 20 million sold. Anyway, great work. S2.--88marcus (talk) 21:46, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Perfect, I did the change as per this conversation. Some cases I didn't added a few artists due inflated sales (Belinda, Tiziano Ferro etc). --Apoxyomenus (talk) 15:23, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Enrique Iglesias (Spain)

Guys, Enrique Iglesias is from Spain.

Spain is in Europe, which is very far from Latin-America.

Anyone from Spain and therefore from Europe shouldn't be on this list.

Latin is a shortened version of Latin-American, if you want to include the Speakers of Latin-based languages this list should be titled "Romance Language music artists". It's misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JaimeDes (talk • contribs) 04:08, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Latinx artist =/= Latin artist. You don't have to be of Latin American heritage to be a performer of Latin music. This list is for artists who perform Latin music, not artists who are merely of Latinx heritage. Plus the music industry counts music in Spanish and Portuguese as "Latin". Erick (talk) 18:27, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

new change

I think pitbull should be added because he has 65 million records. Oscarotero3 (talk) 05:46, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Duplication

Jose Jose is twice on the list. Chucklepedia (talk) 18:57, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Shakira and others (sales)

@Editor universal: We use the artists' certifications as a basis for the articles that talk about sales and also is preferable to use the sales that are closest to them, I ask you to go to the article List of best-selling music artists and see how the table and criteria for organization are organized. Regarding Julio Iglesias, the Guinness Book cannot claim that his sales are 300 million, these sales are promotional, they did the same with Thriller by Michael Jackson, putting the album sales at over 100 million, but now they have changed, the sales are around 66 million according to their website. Gloria Estefan, is the same case, promotional sales, she has about 35 million certificated records and her success is greater in Latin American countries, usually little markets where if you sell 5 or 10 thousand copies, you will receive a gold or a platinum record, very difficult to exceed 100 million mark like that.--88marcus (talk) 23:32, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Lower threshold and/or change the criteria to match the main best-selling music artists

@88marcus:, @Apoxyomenus:, @FanDePopLatino:, @Muhandes:, I want to be bold and change the threshold from 15 million to 7.5 million, as that is a tenth of the minimum threshold on List of best-selling music artists. And on the subject of that article, I also believe it'd be good to follow the same criteria as that article to use certifications (at least 1 million certified copies perhaps?). Again with the best-selling Latin albums, we need a criteria to define what "Latin" means. We should use the same one used on the best-selling Latin albums list, that is, an artist who mostly performs in Spanish or Portuguese, is considered a "Latin" by music journalists, or performs a Latin music genre. Unlike the aforementioned list though, I am okay with listing all their albums in the certifications list regardless if the album is "Latin" or not, since the main subject is the artist. Thoughts? Erick (talk) 17:19, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

@Erick hey sorry for the late reply. I do believe there definitely should be a threshold for this. Also I'm not sure about what name/criteria for the article because there is a big misconception about what Latin countries really are. Latin countries would technically the countries that speak the romance languages that derive from Latin (so Spain, Portugal, Italy, France, and Romania) and any country that now speaks any of those languages after colonization. Now the misconception about latinos just speaking Spanish (which is actually called Castilian or Castellano) or Portuguese is because people in the U.S. link latinos to Latin America but one example of a country that doesn't speak either one of those but is still considered a Latin American country is Haiti which is a Latin country because they speak French but so does Canada although people don't think of it as a Latin American country even though it technically is. So if we're just gonna list artist who sing in Castilian (Spanish) or Portuguese then we should have an explanation on top of the page for readers to know why only singers who sing in one of those two languages are the ones included here. FanDePopLatino (talk) 05:49, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your input FanDePopLatino. As for the other Latin languages you mentioned, I can't find reliable sources that mentions the Latin music industry also including French, Italian, and Romanian languages. No artist who has solely sung in those languages has been on "best of Latin music artists". There needs to be reliable sources that the Latin music industry that includes those languages as well. I could only sources find music in Spanish and Portuguese being counted as "Latin" by the the Latin music industry such as the Latin Grammys and the Latin Songwriters Hall of Fame. Erick (talk) 12:13, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

@Erick yeah of course those lists won't include artist that sing in those languages because media is very ignorant about what latinos really are and that's why they list Christina Aguilera or Selena Gomez as Latin artists when they actually aren't. If you're name was what decides if you're latino then people from the Philippines could be latinos and Shakira wouldn't be because her name is Arab. If we go by any of those sources then none of them are reliable but oh well. Don't mind me it's just that I feel that if wikipedia is meant to be like an encyclopedia then we should go by facts but then again pop culture sources don't care about facts but instead about ratings lol. FanDePopLatino (talk) 05:33, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

@FanDePopLatino: True true. I think the problem is that the media often conflates a Latinx artist being a Latin artist. Aguilera and Gomez are the former, but not the latter. You don't have to be of Latinx descent to be a performer of Latin music. That's also why I roll my eyes whenever I see social media make ridiculous accusations of Rosalia doing cultural appropriation. And she's the only one too, because they're silent on C. Tangana being one of the most nominated at this year's Latin Grammys. Thank God social media isn't real life. Erick (talk) 14:08, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Christina Aguilera

I initially disagreed with AngelOfDestiny's edit, but this article from Billboard does call her a "Latin music star", so I'm leaning towards rescinding my earlier revert. In principle, I agree that Aguilera only releasing one album in Spanish shouldn't make her a "Latin star", but Billboard does mention her also being a Latin artist. If need be, I can search for more articles that call Aguilera a Latin music artist. Erick (talk) 13:53, 13 November 2021 (UTC) Never mind. The list includes artists who have never even a Latin album like Demi Lovato. I rescind my rescind. Erick (talk) 14:08, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Luis Miguel

In my opinion more than 60 million copies is over exaggerated, counting only is WEA sales. In the mid 00's in almost every single article claimed around 52-55 million copies, including his official website. After that a lot of digital media took the 90-100 million from "fan" edits in wikipedia. Franlm14 (talk) 16:24, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

We need a minimum required of Latin recordings for artists to qualify

@Apoxyomenus:, @Markus WikiEditor:, @FanDePopLatino:, @Brankestein:, @AJona1992:, @Muhandes:, so right now, aside from the minimum sales needed (which I think should be a tenth of List of best-selling music artists), there is no minimum threshold on the number of Latin recordings for an artist to be eligible. Should it be based solely on albums? For example, J. Lo and Xtina have only released one Spanish-language, yet both continue to record in the aforementioned language as singles. Should it be 51% of their repertoire (albums or songs recorded) in Spanish, Portuguese, or any Latin genre? A minimum of three Spanish-language albums or its equivalent if an artist has not released an album? Need some thoughts before I continue with this list. I'm open to any ideas, as long as we have a threshold. Erick (talk) 16:01, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

I believe we should be consistent with WP:Latin music's project scope and not sway away from it. Recordings should contain at a bare minimum of 51% of any Iberian language and instrumental albums should have a source or two that says it contains Latin music genres. With that being said, both artists you have mentioned have released Spanish-language songs, which in total most likely sold more than their respective Spanish-language albums combined, which should help enable them on this list. The threshold should be clear and be presented in the article to avoid confusion as Lopez is considered "a Latin artist" outside the United States. We shouldn't use "Latin music artist" to mean someone with a Hispanic background since Mariah Carey would be included in this list, we should also consider what is available for Spanish/Portuguese-language versions of songs (especially those in the 1990s), and we should also reconsider the title of this article if sales for such versions are found and meet the threshold. Also, are we including artists from Spain, Portugal, Andorra, Africa, and the Philippines? They don't use the term "Latin" so it gets more complicated than listing "Latin music artists". Our coverage of Latin music is very low outside of the Americas, especially for the aforementioned countries/continents I just listed above including some European countries such as Romania and Italy have a "Latin music" scene. So, what is "Latin music" for this list? I'm sorry for running on, but it's easy to create articles for artists and their albums/songs, but when it comes to article lists, it gets more complicated. Best – jona ✉ 16:34, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Also, we need to gather consensus on which sources we can use for this list. There are countless sources of very popular artists that are vague and will only provide an overall sales number without breaking down the numbers. For instance, if a source says "Artist" sold X number of copies worldwide, and if that artist regularly releases English-language songs, then do we still use that number? Should we only rely on sources such as Billboard that contain a breakdown of sales for artists who have recorded outside the project's scope? But then if we do, artists that are not that popular and outside of the United States wouldn't be included on this list. I think we should also come up with a list of acceptable sources for sales claim so that in the future, we do not get a fan who found a source that says "Artist" sold X number of copies worldwide that most likely includes recordings outside of the project's scope. Best – jona ✉ 16:44, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• To me, would be more a perspective of languages than heritage per se; rarely other languages such as French or Italian are included in the definition of the word in some places; but Spanish and Portuguese are the most common including our definition in the WikiProject. In this aspect, I would like to choose those artists actively releasing material in the Latin music scene or with a vast catalogue. And perhaps, would be helpful to use as a whole the criteria of 50%/51% for their entire catalogue-career. With this, we should no have problem with crossover artists like Shakira, as appears that most of her worldwide sales came from her English-language releases rather than Spanish. With this method, Italian artists such as Laura Pausini or Eros Ramazzotti if apply, can be placed here. After all, names like them aren't rarely in the "Latin music" scene, including music awards or charts because their Spanish/Portuguese releases. Contrary to Mariah Carey, that her music is entirely in English nor even related to anything that includes Latin music, with the exception of at least one Spanish interpretation ("Heroe"). That could be something similar to the principle of least astonishment. In regards cases like Jennifer Lopez or Christina Aguilera, perhaps are more the exception than the rule. Maybe, a sub-section explaining that could help, and/or including them in that sub-section. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 17:40, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• The instability of this list with crossover artists such as Shakira, Ricky Martin, and Enrique Iglesias, might pose an issue. I'm looking at this issue like this: if a new artist releases an album with 51% Spanish material, then they duet on English songs, then they are gone as the collective percentage would make them ineligible for inclusion. So in the hypothetical span of a few months, that artist is removed from this list. Then that artist releases their second Spanish album, they are back on here. I don't know if I agree with the constant ins and outs of artists based on a collective, especially since artists dabble back and forth, it'll be somewhat time-consuming to bring back and then remove said artists based on their activity. I also don't agree with excluding Latin crossover artists or European musicians in markets where releasing Latin songs is the norm. The collective rule is practice on WP:Latin music to figure out if an artist is included in the project, but since this is a list of best-selling Latin music artists and the definition has not been established yet, I'm more inclined to go with the 51% recorded rule to a collective. Just my two cents – jona ✉ 19:20, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Well, I see that concern. But I also take in consideration that maybe the list could be based in groupings and explaining this to the reader as "Latin"/"Latino" means variously. EG: Those examples of crossover artists like Shakira (a premier example of this group), along with Ricky Martin, and Enrique Iglesias at some point of their career. And those from entirely in Spanish and/or Portuguese, with sometimes crossover in other languages (Thalía for example). After all, to the media and public despite their songs in English, an artist like Shakira is universally known as a "Latin" performer. The most problematic cases for me, should be others like Jennifer Lopez or Christina Aguilera, as they have exceptional various releases in Spanish but not entirely in their whole career. Anyways, I will support any final decision. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 02:36, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree that we should include only artist whose repertoire is at least 51% latin music because as much as I like Jennifer Lopez and Christina Aguilera they are not latin artists. Lots of media might call them Latin artists but those are the same media that call Selena Gomez and Demi Lovato latin artist when they aren't (even if they wanna identify as latin). If we let those things influence who is part of the list then real Latin artists who release music in a Latin language would be very low on the list. Even though JLo and Xtina have recently started releasing some latin songs again, their whole discography is over 90% in English and their sales are mostly from those English language releases. They are not Latin artists but more like English speaking artists who have made small crossovers into latin music but they are still mainly English language artists (the same way that latin artist such as Thalía and Paulina Rubio have done small crossovers into other markets but they are still mainly Latin artists). Now when when comes to artists with more successful crossovers like Shakira and Gloria Estefan, their releases are mainly in Castilian (incorrectly known as Spanish) and those latin releases also entered mayor charts and received certifications so their latin music is definitely selling and not just their English language releases. I think that is how we should determine if an artist is a Latin artists and not by what sources say no matter how reliable they are because unfortunately in English speaking countries people have a big misconception about what a "Latino" really is and if wikipedia is meant to be an encyclopedia then we should look into facts and ignore political correctness. FanDePopLatino (talk) 14:08, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

A question for you guys. We should allow certifications sources aside of the online databases? Luis Miguel for example has almost 10 million copies certified in Mexico alone before 1999. Franlm14 (talk) 18:51, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Alright, so I made some bold changes. First I moved from the draftspace to my userbox so that there's no time limit on the article. Drafts not edited over six months get deleted and we're so close to finishing this article. Second, I lowered the threshold from 15 million to 7.5 million units, which is a tenth of the minimum threshold on the List of best-selling music artists article. Third, I move artists who do not have certifications listed online to claimed sales only, just like I did on List of best-selling Latin albums. I also removed J. Lo and Xtina as we seem to be in agreement that neither artist should be listed due to their limited Spanish-language recordings. And finally, I copied the definitions from the List of best-selling music artists as well. If everything's fine, then let's get some certified units and finish this article! @Franlm14: I am honestly uncomfortable with that idea, because I fear many try to change certified units that don't match the database online. I'd only be okay if sources show it came directly from the certifying authority and not the record label itself, but we'll need consensus from the other users. Erick (talk) 15:04, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Since this is a list based on best-selling musicians in a genre and not by race or ethnicity, and if we go with the collective rule, this list will need to be updated way more regularly based on a musician's activity. Since there's no genre-based list that we can model, how accurate can we be? Now it gets technical, how will we compute numbers to check and update percentages on each musician listed here? Also, why do we need to have multiple "claimed sales" figures? The fact that some artists have three is excessive. We need to agree on which sources are acceptable and what should we do with sources that provide vague numbers. Also, can we have a simpler, straight-to-the-point overview of the definitions of Latin music? I'm not a fan of large chunks of paragraphs detailing what a word is. I get that Latin music is complicated, but I'm pretty sure we can come up with something that doesn't put off readers. Best – jona ✉ 16:28, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry about that, all the artists listed here have been seeing Spanish for years now, so it's unlikely that they're suddenly going to sing all English going forward. And if that happens that's a bridge we'll cross when we get there. Like we don't need to be exact or use percentage which is why I say at least half instead of 51%. Maybe I could say as a general rule of thumb instead of being exact?

As for some artists having three clean figures, remember this list is based on how they also do it on the List of best-selling music artists article. Apoxyomenus and I mostly modeled the entire article around that one, the only difference is of course language requirement and a lower threshold requirement for percentage of certifications since there isn't many in Latin America. I'm open to suggestions on how to reduce defining Latin music section. I really do not mind at all if you want to go ahead and chop some of the unnecessary info off on the Latin section. To put it simply, I want to use the same methodology so to speak as the main best of selling music artist does for the most part. Erick (talk) 18:56, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I get it, but now we can shape this article to our standards based on the project's scope. What is stopping future vandals and IPs from adding multiple sales reports from various outlets? One claimed sales report from a reputable source suffices, not multiple numbers that make it excessively cluttered as if we cannot decide which source is better. Best – jona ✉ 10:30, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

I honestly have no objections to using only one claimed sales. My main focus at this point is just filling in certified units, so feel free to be bold and make the changes you see fit. 🙂 Erick (talk) 14:21, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

BTW have ya'll seen this?, I was scouring the web for worldwide sales claims for Tejano/Regional artists to populate the list. There are some articles on WP that use this site, but I don't see any posts about it being reliable. They seem to think "shipments" are "sales" when I searched for some artists knowing what the certifications actually represented. – jona ✉ 14:35, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

They also have a list of the "best-selling" USA Latin albums. – jona ✉ 14:37, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Yeah looks terrible if you ask me. I'm trying to do the same with tropical artists as well. Just curious, when do you plan to edit the article to address the concerns you brought up? No rush of course, just don't want to deal with edit conflicts lolz. Erick (talk) 14:53, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

I think can be included Billboard as a source for the contries without online database like Chile for example. Julio Iglesias has a Billboard source for multiples certifications in the List of best-selling music artists. Franlm14 (talk) 17:26, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

I'll be editing the list after I do some extensive searches. Probs later tonight, if not, then another day so you can edit without conflict. – jona ✉ 17:29, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

@AJona1992 Sounds good! Starting tomorrow, I work Monday to Friday from 8 to 4pm EST, so those are the times I won't be available. @Franlm14 As long as it can be shown that the certifications came from the certifying authority and not the record label, then I'm fine with it. Same with on List of best-selling Latin albums, but let's get consensus from our active users for both articles. @Apoxyomenus:, @Markus WikiEditor:, @FanDePopLatino:, @Brankestein:, @Swe97:, yay or nay? Erick (talk) 19:11, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Well, I'm fine how will be driven as per previously discussions. My only problem is time, and scheduled projects. So, I can only contribute briefly as a reviewer, commenting and other minor participations. Best regards, --Apoxyomenus (talk) 03:58, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

I think that since latin artists mainly sell in Latin countries we could use certifications that are not on official certifying websites but only if we have discussed it in the talk pages first to make sure the sources are indeed reliable. Like @Franlm14: mentioned above about Luis Miguel having certifications in Mexico that aren't on the amprofon website. That case is true for several artists so if we can find sources that are indeed reliable and we have discussed it to make sure we're all on the same page then we can add them to the list. @Apoxyomenus:, @Markus WikiEditor:, and I have found sources in the past for certifications and discussed their reliability on our talk pages before using them in articles. If we can agree to do this then I don't see a problem with using other sources for certifications. FanDePopLatino (talk) 13:44, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

I've reconsidered not using an artist's background as a factored. When looking at the Latin Grammy website for Person of the Year, they do factored in the artist's heritage for this award, and if you look at the Latin Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award, there are artists recognized for their contributions to Latin music such as Vikki Carr, Linda Ronstadt, and Joan Baez despite not having released many Latin albums in their respective careers. For this reason, I open to including Xtina and J Lo since they both have released at least one Latin album. Erick (talk) 14:50, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

In my opinion the heritage means nothing. If an artist doesn't consistently make records or songs in Spanish or Portuguese, in my opinion they shouldn't be on the list. It's unfair to compare them to everyone else, when some of them even don't speak Spanish or Portuguese. For example, it is fair that Christina Aguilera is above Luis Miguel or Shakira, in terms of Latin music? no in my opinion, her relevance to Latin music is almost non-existent. Mariah Carey has Venezuelan roots, fortunately she just release a few songs in Spanish and not an full album, she would be the best selling latin artist of all time. Franlm14 (talk) 06:08, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

You are completely right, and I didn't think about that. I made a massive revert. Erick (talk) 16:25, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

So thinking about this. When Billboard considers J Lo to be a Latin artist despite having only released one Latin album (see List of highest-grossing concert tours by Latin artists), plus she still records in Spanish despite being singles only. This means we cannot use a minimum threshold without a reliable source. Since Jona already figured out a way to go around this, by only counting Latin certified units, this shouldn't be a a problem anymore. So I'll be adding artists who are considered "Latin" by reliable sources, including J Lo, Xtina, Pitbull, Linda Rondstadt, and Andrea Bocelli. The latter two received a lifetime achievement award for their contributions to Latin music. That only leaves Xtina. When this list was being made, she had only recorded one Latin just like J Lo, but she has released another Latin album and has recently been focused on the Latin music market. As long as Spanish or Portuguese is one of their primary languages, the minimum threshold wouldn't stand a chance if this article were to be nominated to FL right now. Erick (talk) 03:40, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

I just got an e-mail from Billboard's Pamela Bustios who stated that "Being Latin depends on ascendancy". Instead of using strict numbers, I'm using a vague statement and will see how it pans at the peer review. Erick (talk) 22:28, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Modifications in the article List of best-selling music artists

People, stay tuned for the RfC that is happening in the article List of best-selling music artists, some people are voting for the page to be erased, or even stop including certificates. Changes that happen there can happen here and it will be a futile effort to try so hard to make this article as accurate as possible.--Markus WikiEditor (talk) 03:23, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

@Markus WikiEditor Sorry for the late response. It looks like they're moving to get rid of the percentage amount needed, which I am okay with. Erick (talk) 19:38, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Final verdict and suggestions

@Markus WikiEditor:, @FanDePopLatino:, @Apoxyomenus:, @AJona1992:, @Franlm14:, @Muhandes: I've done everything I could for this list and I believe it's finished (for what it is). Any verdicts? Feel free to be bold and make any changes you deemed to necessary! Thanks everyone of you for all your help with this list! Erick (talk) 04:51, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Quick view: I see there are artists with missing certs. J Balvin (Mexico, Italy +) or Daddy Yankee (Mexico, Italy +), Eros Ramazzotti (+) are some of them. Also probably there are many with missing Spanish certs, as they are hard to obtain. But overall good job. I might help later. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 05:35, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, we need to complete certs for artists, and check out the inflated claimed sales for many cases. Franlm14 (talk) 05:44, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

I also agree with Fran, we need to see those artists with inflated sales. For good or bad, some of them have a "range" of claimed sales, 15/20/25/30 million to give y'all a picture. So, cases like Jeanette need to have a double-check. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 05:47, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

@Erick I just did a few more edits. Sorry I haven't been able to add much to it lately but it is very well done. Like Apoxyomenus mentioned there are some certifications missing but we can always add them later. Let's try to add at least the certifications on the official certifying bodies website so we can move the article to the mainspace and then we can add the third party source certifications later.FanDePopLatino (talk) 05:49, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

"The column for certified sales includes markets, the databases of which contain certifications representing figures of 100,000 and more." If we use this rule we should remove a few certs. Franlm14 (talk) 05:52, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

I removed it. Thanks for catching that. Erick (talk) 21:31, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

If we are going with the fact that artists included on this page must have recorded 51% or more in Ibero-languages, then why is Santana included in this list? Looking through the discography, the band recorded most of their albums in English with two or three, at most, in Spanish. I think we can all agree that 99% of their claimed sales are from their English albums and 1% of their albums that are majority recorded in Spanish make up the rest. They are a rock band, not a rock en Espanol band. With that being said, are we going to blindly accept any claimed sales from any artist regardless of the language makeup in those reports? If we know Shakira records English songs from time to time, should we make sure that there is a note beside her stating that? Also, looking at Shakira's RIAA-certified units, I only counted 12.84 million copies from albums and songs that would meet the linguistic criteria of "Latin music", so the fact that we have 35.54 million certified units for the United States for Shakira, is a bit troubling. Even Selena's RIAA US-certified units include Greatest Hits, which includes zero songs in Spanish. So, are we just adding artists just because of their ethnic background and the fact that they occasionally record in Spanish? I believe that when this draft was created, it was mostly population focus, but now that we've populated this list, the focus needs to be in clean up and removing certified units that do not meet the linguistic criteria. Best – jona ✉ 16:14, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

This is a good idea, to determine who really dominates the Latin music. But it's almost impossible to determine how many sales comes from Latin records out of their total claimed sales. Franlm14 (talk) 16:58, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

True, but for certified units, we can make that distinction. For claimed sales, we can add a note that explains that the report may include English-language recordings that are otherwise omitted from total certified units. – jona ✉ 17:52, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

@AJona1992: I honestly have no objections...I just want this list done. lol It's been at this sandbox for 2 years. Erick (talk) 03:11, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

@AJona1992 One question, if an artist sells a full English album in a Latin country, does count? Franlm14 (talk) 05:38, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Also to do with certified albums that have been bundled together such as Fijacion Oral and Oral Fixation 2 by Shakira? Erick (talk) 18:03, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

@Franlm14 If the album is over 50% English, then it really isn't a "Latin" album, linguistically speaking. A Japanese-language album sold in the United States does not make it an English-language album, it's a Japanese-language album and vice versa; an English-language album sold in Japan does not make it a Japanese album. @Erick, I believe that duo is fine because there is an alternate version of "La Tortura" that helps skew the box set more Spanish. – jona ✉ 00:16, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

@AJona1992: I'm all done on my end. Can you take over especially with your propose? I'm planning to move this sandbox to the main space by the end of this month. Erick (talk) 05:14, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

@AJona1992:, @Franlm14:, @Apoxyomenus:, @Markus WikiEditor: Sorry for the months delay, I got caught up in several projects. I'm still very committed to working this list. I've decided this will be done by the end of the year. Once we reduce the certifications to Latin recordings only, can we finally get this on the mainspace?

At this point, what am I even missing? I added non Latin American certifications, reduced certifications to only Latin recordings, correctly artists by sales then certified units. I really don't know what else I could be missing...

I think it's done. We can check if some artist is missing, remove someone, or lower any inflated sales left. For the future, it would be nice to add Latin certifications outside of the databases for all artists, from countries like Mexico, Chile and Colombia. Franlm14 (talk) 10:34, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

@Markus WikiEditor:, @FanDePopLatino:, @Apoxyomenus:, @AJona1992: I'm really sorry to keep pinging you guys, but I'd really like to know where we stand. I did everything you guys suggested (adding certifications from non Latin America countries from online databases, reducing certified units to only Latin recordings, etc.) I'm ready to move this to the main space, but I need to make sure it's okay with you guys first. Erick (talk) 17:06, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

@Erick I think by now it's pretty safe to move it to mainspace. Any more edits anyone wants to make can be added on later. I still agree with adding certifications that are not in the official websites such as certifications in Mexico prior to 1999 that don't show on up AMPROFON. Those as well as others can be added later while the article is in mainspace. Right now it is well done with proper sources and solid evidence that it is a legit article deserving of mainspace so I say we go for it. FanDePopLatino (talk) 07:40, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Since the Berklee College of Music and the Guinness Book of World Records considers Julio Iglesias the best-selling Latin artist, let's have an image of him in the lead that establishes that. – jona ✉ 15:01, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Added per Guinness World record but not Berkelee per WP:RSSM. Erick (talk) 19:05, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Let's do it. I agree with what FanDePopLatin said. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 19:21, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Re: Raymon Ayala

@Magiciandude: RE; I must say yes, let's see the rest of his certs: Mexico, Brazil, Italy, Spain, probably Argentina, France, Canada, and a bunch of other countries. Unless other dispute. I've even seen a figure of 40 million somewhere. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 21:10, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Lol disregard the above text: I though it was the other Ramon Ayala (Daddy Yankee), but is Mexican singer Ramón Ayala. I've not clue about how popular he was or is; I've never seen anything about him, in record charts and stuffs like that. I suspect is part of a circular reporting from sp.wiki, that affected several artists including him. Maybe keep him on hold, and try to find an alternative figure could help. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 21:38, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

If it helps, he's recorded over 100 (!) discs. Also could you clarify what you mean by "keep him on hold"? Does that mean I should keep or removed him? Erick (talk) 03:14, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

With keep him on hold, I meant try to find a lower claimed sales. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 17:17, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Tracking / alternative figures to the record

• Vicente Fernandez: claimed 5 million copies sold in Colombia
• Daddy Yankee: 30 million records (and missing certs)
• Selena: 30 million
• Ariel Ramirez: 10 million copies (diez millones de copias)
• Amanda Miguel: 15 million
• Amado Batista: 12 million, 13 million
• Tucanes de Tijuana: 13 million, 10 million
• Diomedes Díaz: 10 million
• Marisela: 12 million (?)
• Pimpinela: 15 million

Non-added / Verify

• Pandora: 10 million
• Timbiriche: 10 million
• Wisin & Yandel: 15 million
• Roberta Mirada: 15 million
• Gloria Trevi: 15 million
• Soda Stereo: 10 million
• Alejandra Guzman: 10 million copies, 8 million
• Galy Galiano: 10 million

Try to down inflated figures

• Hombres G: 4 million (Book: Extremoduro De profundis. La historia autorizada, 2013 by Javier Menéndez Florez. Penguin)
• Lupita D'Alessio
• Yuri

--Apoxyomenus (talk) 17:17, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Keep an eye

• Yma Sumac: 40 million
• Pitbull
• Soda Stereo

--Apoxyomenus (talk) 22:13, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure if she qualifies. I've listed to her some of her songs and she doesn't exactly sing in Spanish or Portuguese. Of course, there might recordings I've missed out. BTW, I machine translated this list to the Spanish Wikipedia's article of the same name. I saw your contributions there and thought you should know. Erick (talk) 21:13, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

No opinion about her case (yet). I created this section to review and tracking some possible additions/discards. Cheers, --Apoxyomenus (talk) 16:01, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

@Apoxyomenus Franlm14, I found 30 million sales for Karol G. Probably inflated though and I'm not sure if the source isn't even good enough. Meanwhile Bad Bunny has apparently only sold over 7 million copies so the huge difference between the two doesn't make sense. Erick (talk) 19:52, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't know how really works the streaming sales, and if the equivalences is really close to physical sales. I suppose that for this list is the same important to have sold 30 million physical albums or 30 million from streaming singles. Franlm14 (talk) 20:31, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

@Franlm14 Thanks for the input! What do you also think about Bad Bunny's albums I posted on the talk page for best-selling Latin albums? Erick (talk) 20:37, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Brazilian artists

@Apoxyomenus:, @Markus WikiEditor:, I'm looking at the Portuguese Wikipedia at the article for Best-selling Brazilian artists/discs. I would like to add missing Brazilian artists, but I don't know which sales seems reliable or highly inflated. Which ones should I add that seems reasonable? Erick (talk) 21:08, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Late me take a look once I have time. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 17:05, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

@Magiciandude: Hello Magiciandude, this is going to take a little effort, but I'll put it here. First of all, I want to mention that in the Portuguese Wikipedia article you provided, there's a section dedicated to the certifications awarded to artists by ABPD (now Pro-Música Brasil) during the years 1979 and 1989. The list is reliable; I added it myself. It appears in several editions of the respected Brazilian newspaper O Globo, and it can be included in the article whenever you're able to do so. I'll share the link to the material I archived: link

At the time the certifications were issued, only gold or platinum records existed in Brazil, so there were no multi-platinum or double gold records as was the case from the 1990s onwards. I don't know why, but the ABPD/PMB website only includes certifications given from 1990 onwards. The ones that appear in O Globo were issued by them. Anyway, here are the artists for whom the sales are reliable and the numbers are more accurate for their sales:

• Roberto Carlos: 100kk
• Nelson Gonçalves: 75kk
• Xuxa: 30kk
• Maria Bethania: 26kk
• Amado Batista: 22kk
• Ivete Sangalo: 20kk
• Sandy e Junior: 20kk
• Zezé di Camargo & Luciano: 20kk
• Padre Marcelo Rossi: 16kk
• Bruno & Marrone: 10kk

The others seem inflated, given the lack of certificates and information about older sales (prior to the 1970s).--Markus WikiEditor (talk) 22:14, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

@Markus WikiEditor  Done I've added the missing and amended the Brazilian artists you mentioned. Is both Daniela Mercury and Banda Calypso fine where they are at? Erick (talk) 06:25, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

@Magiciandude: yes. Those two cases seems ok.--Markus WikiEditor (talk) 00:19, 18 August 2023 (UTC)