Talk:List of architects of Baku

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Source

The source by Tigranyan Edmond contains so much inaccuarate info that it could not be trusted. The building on Torgovaya where Landau was born is not the one owned by Mirzabekov brothers. That one is next to the school opposite the City Hall. Physiotherapy Institute is not Medical Academy, those are in different parts of the city. Grandmaster 19:50, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The reference is fine. It was my lack of judgement that mixed the two institutions. Does the Baku physiotherapy institute have a website or a wikipedia article I can go over? Thanks

My two cents

I find this article to be very interesting, though I wonder if it really is necessary to have a separate article. Rather than diverting this to Armenian Architecture, as Brandmeister has done, it might be better to incorporate the information here into the Armenians in Baku/Azerbaijan article, some of it in the history section, and the remainder under a heading like "Culture."--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 23:43, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, what you propose makes sense. But better sourcing would also be helpful. Grandmaster

POV

This article is POV all-over.

The word "Armenian architecture" is unacceptable; even if designed and built by ethnic Armenians, the architecture was not Armenian-owned. There is nothing that would thus qualify it as Armenian.
Bayev's Armenian origin is questionable; as far as I know, his Armenian roots are mentioned only in Yerevan-published POV sources and are not suggested either by his birthplace, or his name.
Ter-Mikelov never went by "Ter-Mikaelyan" and futhermore, his contribution to the construction of the Mayoralty of Baku is highly doubtful. The building is widely known as having been designed by Jozef Goslawski, and it is very unlikely that a celebrated architect such as him would entrust the design of such an important landmark to a student of a civil engineering college. Naturally, Edmond Tigranyan is not in the position to substantiate such a claim.
The same goes for Khudaverdyan, Safaryan and Tigranyan who are used to support the Freidun Aghalyan and Martin Tovmasyan claim. Parishan (talk) 09:06, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Armenian architecture label can apply to the churches built in Baku. Civic buildings to be sure were more neoclassical than anything else, in which case you have a point, but I am curious if Armenian architects ever incorporated elements of medieval Armenian architecture and building in their designs, something they certainly did during the Soviet era. One would have to go back to the archives of the Armenian newspapers and periodicals to find some more detailed information. Ter-Mikeylov is, of course, the russanized form of Ter-Mikelyan, and I am sure his name would of been written as so in Armenian language sources of the time. Your third point sounds like original research.

I'll try to build all this into a coherent narrative on the Armenians in Baku article once I have the time.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 17:35, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Totally agree with Parishan. Very few third party sources have been provided. Armenian ethnicity of Bayev is not supported by any third party source. In fact, Bayev had a typical Russian name and surname. Ter-Mikelov was a surname of Armenian origin, but the person himself, like his surname, was Russified. The name of Gabriel Ter-Mikaelian is an invention of modern Armenian authors. Every official Russian document mentioned him as Gavriil Mikhailovich Ter-Mikelov. Same goes for Vartan Stepanovich Sarkisov, who was not Sargsyan. I do not understand the obsession of the modern Armenian authors with post factum Armenization of the names of Baku Armenians, or persons who they believe to be of Armenian origin. They tried to Armenize the names of Mantashev, Mailov, Mirzabekov, Ter-Mikelov, etc, despite the fact that those people themselves never used Armenized surnames ending with -yan. It is nothing but rewriting the history for political purposes. This article should be merged into Armenians in Baku. Grandmaster 19:50, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, there's no reliable source to support the claim that Alexander Rotinoff was an Armenian. The article Alexander Rotinyan makes this claim with the reference to the same Edmond Tigranyan, while the official name of the UK truck company was Rotinoff, not Rotinyan. According to Google books, he was a White Russian emigre: [1] Grandmaster 19:58, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The fact of the matter is that Gabriel Ter Mikaelyan (who buried as Ter Mikaelyan in the Vera Armenian Cemetary in Tblisi) was ethnically Armenian. He was far for "Russianized" since he built Armenian churches in Baku, Tiflis, and Yalta and is buried in an Armenian church in Tblisi under Gabriel Ter Mikaelyan. The churches he built and designed were of architectural designs of the Pakradouni Armenian Kingdom (Most notable designs were from the city Ani). Russification was a phenomenon that affected everyone throughout the Russian empire. Men and women throughout the world were compelled and at times forced to adopt Russian last names, speak Russian, and etc.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Proudbolsahye (talk • contribs) 7 December 2012

I don't know if his tombstone indeed has an Armenized spelling and if it is a modern creation or not, but the fact remains that officially he has always been Ter-Mikelov Gavriil Mikhailovich. That's what his documents stated. I have yet to see an official document spelling his name otherwise. Grandmaster 20:13, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Come on, Grandmaster. You're being more than a little disingenuous here. The fact of the matter is that many ethnic minorities russified their names during this period, and even during the Soviet period. "Ter" is a popular prefix for Armenian surnames which signifies that someone in the family was a member of the Armenian church (Ter meaning "Lord" in Armenian). Loris-Melikov, one of the most important military and civil officials was of Armenian descent, so were a slew of other Imperial Russian Armenian generals, including Vasili Bebutov, Beybut Shelkovnikov, Ivan Lazarev, and Arshak Ter-Gukasov (Ter-Ghukasyan). Pressure to conform and assimilate was always present. This applied to others working in other fields, such as the arts, which is why Ivan Aivazovsky's surname was also russified. So unless you have some sources to present to the contrary, please stay away from making such ill-thought out remarks.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 20:48, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are missing the point that I'm trying to make. I'm not saying that Ter-Mikelov was not an ethnic Armenian, I only say that his official name was Gavril Ter-Mikelov, and not Gabriel Ter-Mikaelian. The latter is not found in any official source. Why exactly his name was Russified is not important here. Grandmaster 21:03, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And you might be missing mine. If a person's name was russified, then it's probable that was the way it was written in most official sources. But Armenian periodicals would more often than not spell names in Armenian. But whatever occurs in greater frequency should probably be used in these articles, with the Armenian name only mentioned in parentheses, for the sake of reference.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 21:07, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How do you know what was written in Armenian periodicals? It is just your personal assumption, not a fact. Grandmaster 15:18, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've went through collections of Armenian-language Baku periodicals more than once and seen it for myself.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 21:42, 9 December 2012 (=UTC)

MarshallBagramyan, it is not about being Armenian or not. I have every reason to doubt the factual accuracy of this article as a whole. And as an experienced contributor yourself, you must understand that a post-Soviet Yerevan-published source is not enough evidence for the creation of this rather controversial article. I can top Tigranyan with dozens of Azerbaijani sources who mention Goslawski alone as the architect of the said building (and so can you with a little effort on Google Books). Therefore, unless there is a third-party source, confirming Ter-Mikelov did indeed design that building, this information does not belong in Wikipedia. Same goes for the unreasonably Armenized spellings of the architects' surname. They are not mentioned as "Sargsyan" or "Ter-Mikaelyan" anywhere in the academic sources. And lastly, we are still to see evidence of Bayev and Rotinoff being Armenian, because personally I could not double-check that in reliable sources. Parishan (talk) 17:54, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ter-Mikelov did not construct the entire Mayoralty building of Baku. He assisted in the design of the tower only. We know that Józef Gosławski hired Ter-Mikelov as an assistant immediately after Ter-Mikelovs arrival to Baku. We also know the Jozer Goslawski is credited (and should be credited) as the main architect of the building. Edmond Torosyan mentions that architects Alexander Yakovlevich Dubov and Tryupin assured him personally that Ter-Mikelov contributed to the construction of the tower of the Mayoralty building in Baku. Torosyan being skeptical of this visited Baku and managed to visit the Baku Property Bureau where he uncovered the plan for the building construction. It turns out that Ter-Mikelov does have his signature on the plans and was responsible for the design on the tower. The construction of the building helps us to believe this as well. The tower has a different look from the rest of the building. The colors of the brick of the building are very different from the colors of the tower itself. It is as if two separate architects designed the building. If you truly believe Edmond Torosyan's book is a POV...thats fine. But do yourselves and big favor and check with the Baku Property Bureau just like the author did...you'll understand only then. MGKazanc (talk) 18:23, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You need to quote a third party source for this claim. Tigranyan made too many contradictory claims, distorted surnames and otherwise twisted the facts to be considered an RS. Grandmaster 19:23, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the previous comment. Just because a user says that someone just went on a limb and saw Ter-Mikelov's signature somewhere is not enough to buy it credibility. Especially if this someone is a non-notable or POV source. Parishan (talk) 14:46, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I myself would prefer some contemporary or pre-Soviet sources. I am not too troubled by the preference of Armenian writers to use the Armenian form of names, but some newspapers and journals from that time would be very nice to cite.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 19:45, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Contemporary sources are Ok, but I would prefer Russian imperial ones. In any case, the modern sources from the region are the least trustworthy. Grandmaster 19:57, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Brandmesiter's vandalism disguised as "redirection"

For the second time Brandmeister tries to destroy the article by "redirecting" it an unrelated place. This "redirection" however results in a complete removal of content from the article. This is a warning. Sprutt (talk) 14:46, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is no real "content" here, to begin with. Parishan (talk) 17:56, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I just moved it to a more neutral title. Now this list has every right to exist. My very best wishes (talk) 06:02, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

baku.am

The article from this website brings desinformation. The buildings on the photo of the article are not Armenian architecture. The church and the building of Baku Duma on this photo are designed by Josef Goslawski. But here these buildings are illustrated "Armenian buildings". Also in these website there are a lot of propagandist articles like this one. The events of 1905 were not "Armenian pogroms". There were massacres also against Azerbaijani (called "Tatars" at that time) population (for example two thirds of victims in Shusha were Azeris). But in the articles the events described as "Armenian pogroms". Wikipedia is not a place of propaganda. Please don't return this link without any consensus on talk page (see WP:CONS). Otherwise I would have to submit a request to admins. --Interfase (talk) 19:26, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The website has a reference guide which describes the various sources used for the website. This includes neutral sources as well. The Duma is believe to be built by Gosławski. Ter-Mikelov being an assistant to Goslawski also has a signature to the design plans. It must be noted that Ter-Mikelov did not construct the entire Mayoralty building of Baku. He assisted in the design of the tower only. We know that Józef Gosławski hired Ter-Mikelov as an assistant immediately after Ter-Mikelovs arrival to Baku. We also know the Jozer Goslawski is credited (and should be credited) as the main architect of the building. Edmond Torosyan mentions that architects Alexander Yakovlevich Dubov and Tryupin assured him personally that Ter-Mikelov contributed to the construction of the tower of the Mayoralty building in Baku. Torosyan being skeptical of this visited Baku and managed to visit the Baku Property Bureau where he uncovered the plan for the building construction. It turns out that Ter-Mikelov does have his signature on the plans and was responsible for the design on the tower. The construction of the building helps us to believe this as well. The tower has a different look from the rest of the building. The colors of the brick of the building are very different from the colors of the tower itself. It is as if two separate architects designed the building. Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:10, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]