Talk:List of Union Civil War monuments and memorials

expansion

Expansion needed! This list-article was suggested at wt:NRHP as a needed counterpart to the much better developed List of monuments and memorials of the Confederate States of America. Category:Monuments and memorials on the National Register of Historic Places by state is one possible source of more articles to be added to this list. --doncram 03:49, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Badly in need of pictures

This article is badly in need of pictures. Might have to go out and take some, or we know someone who photographs Union monuments & memorials. Might need to hook him up with an account or ask him to give me/us a license. Ileanadu (talk) 17:23, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Monument to abolitionist Lovejoy

Elijah Parish Lovejoy Elijah P. Lovejoy Monument 1897

He died in 1837, murdered by a pro-slavery mob. This is clearly an event leading up to the Civil War. He has a monument similar to the Civil War ones. I think it would be helpful to include him. Any objection? deisenbe (talk) 10:47, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Strongly oppose @Deisenbe: "a monument similar to the Civil War ones" is not the same as a Civil War monument. Unless the monument includes a panel, text, or something connecting it to the war, it should not be here. Carptrash (talk) 15:35, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

But the consensus was made to include Taney, who had no participation in the Civil War. deisenbe (talk) 20:36, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

@Deisenbe: That was their decision, just because "they" made a bad decision it does not mean we need to replicate it. Carptrash (talk) 21:53, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

I removed this fro Utah

• Lake Powell was named after John Wesley Powell, who was a Major in the Union Army and lost his right arm in the Battle of Shiloh. He gained fame for his exploration of the Colorado River basin.
  

This is a monument to Powell the explorer, it has nothing to do with the Civil War. Carptrash (talk) 15:31, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

And we need to talk about

listings such as this one.

• Corydon: Corydon Battle Site is a memorial to both sides that fought in the Civil War Battle of Corydon.
  

I am opposed to using sites that are not specifically Union memorials. This is a memorial to a battle site, it is not a Union Civil War monuments or memorial. Trust me, if we are going to seriously work at this article we are going to have hundreds, maybe thousands of sites. We should be selective. Carptrash (talk) 15:47, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I think this should be on both the Union and the Confederate lists. deisenbe (talk) 20:38, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

And we need to talk about

Abraham Lincoln. I propose that every Lincoln monument must include some Civil War component. So statues such as The Young Lincoln would not qualify, Lincoln the Emancipator would. We needed to discuss Lincoln, Nebraska. The list is seemingly endless, including stuff such as Lincoln (car) and much more, but let us think and talk about it now. Carptrash (talk) 16:09, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I fear

that this statement:

• Colored Soldiers Monument, Frankfort's Green Hill Cemetery. One of only four monuments to black soldiers that participated in the American Civil War", might be obsolete as there have been some monuments created probably after that statement. I am in favor of removing or modifying it, i.e. change "only four" to "a few" or something. Carptrash (talk) 18:17, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Would the person that put this in please tell us where the number four came from. deisenbe (talk) 20:39, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter what source was used, I just found this quote: "A great way to celebrate Memorial Day is by visiting one of the dozen monuments that have been erected to honor the United States Colored Troops (USCT) who participated in the Civil War." here [1]], so that Four thing is going to go very soon.Carptrash (talk) 20:55, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I just plucked out

• John Ericsson National Memorial because although Ericsson did design the famous (or infamous, depending on . . .) USS Monitor, there appears to be no reference to that or anything Civil Warish on the monument. Carptrash (talk) 21:16, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I am working on Union (GAR) Civil War monuments and discovered

that there are two articles devoted to that cause, which should be just one. My question here is, which is the better name?

• List of Union Civil War monuments and memorials
• List of memorials to the Grand Army of the Republic

Your input will be muchly appreciated. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 17:55, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

GAR refers to the fraternal organization of Union military veterans, and does not include persons killed during the war. I think GAR memorials cannot include tomb of unknown soldiers, etc.

The "Union Civil War monuments and memorials" title is broader, and includes any/all "Grand Army of the Republic" ones. I suggest ensuring that all GAR ones are individually included into this Union Civil War topic list-article which is organized by state and should include all the GAR ones into each state, and letting the GAR list continue to exist (but not invest into its development, ourselves). And it should be linked by "See also" at the end, but not prominently at the top as it currently is. --donoram 18:14, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Pretty much my take too. We do need to check that all the GAR monuments are that. Thanks for answering here, sometimes (I am sure you understand) I feel like John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness.Carptrash (talk) 19:48, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps Sherman Building (Corpus Christi, Texas)

Is anyone able to find out if the Sherman Building (Corpus Christi, Texas) was named after Union General Sherman please?Zigzig20s (talk) 21:50, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

@Zigzig20s:, it's on the Nat Reg form that is linked to in the article. " Built by H.G. Sherman—a Corpus Christi developer" Carptrash (talk) 17:19, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Let us talk Lincoln & Grant

Both were presidents with a strong connection to the Civil War. However (opinion) every mention of them is not necessarily a Civil War memorial. To me, in a statue, if Lincoln has a beard it is arguably a CW memorial. If Grant is in a uniform, no problem. But I have seen a source that lists a "Young Lincoln" statue as a Civil War memorial and I am not buying it. So what about Lincoln, Nebraska? I say "NO." The Lincoln Memorial in Washington I am inclined to say "yes" because it has the Gettysburg Address carved on the wall behind the statue. With a typo, as I recall, but that is not a factor here. Let us not repeat the mistakes that our comrades at the Confederate List are making. The Garfield Momument in Washington has three allegorical figures, one being "Soldier" to commemorate Garfield's service as a soldier in the War. Is that enough? We have a relationship. let's talk. Carptrash (talk) 22:03, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

I actually agree with you. I think it should be a list specifically honouring Union. Sadly the CSA list as you mentioned is not, which brings up issue I have. Consistency. Imho it should be some form across multiple platforms and articles, especially when it is related to other articles. Overall, still I am inclined to agree with you and make an actual list, only including when it is indeed in honour for Civil War symbol. Leading to Lincoln, it is extremely hard to differentiate when it comes to him, as so many associate(d) him with Civil War, emancipation, abolition, etc. In regards to Lincoln, imho it should be listed unless it clearly is recognizing in honour for non-civil war achievement. Your example of Lincoln, Nebraska, I actually say Yes. If this makes any sense. Kevin "Hawk" Fisher (talk) 10:07, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Again, unlike the Confederate list, we don't have to hurry. I just emailed the reference desk at the Lincoln NE public library, 'cause I am a firm believer in "When in doubt go to a library" and also asked a historian friend of mine who lives there. A look at List of counties in Nebraska is another interesting resource that might help serve as a template for other states. There are many counties named after Presidents and I feel that Lincoln County, and the city, should fall into this category. There are also several counties named after CW generals, so where does one put the county named after Custer, who was a CW general, but much more? Carptrash (talk) 17:12, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Completely understand, and normally would agree. Somehow Lincoln is different, as stated for how most viewed and associated him to represent, both than and now. There are only a few rare examples which I think are different than the norm, and Lincoln is one of them (if not only one). A statue of Young Lincoln in Senn Park, Chicago should NOT be included. It is honouring him as a youth, prior to Civil War. Simply naming something after Lincoln though, most will assume it is honouring him for bringing about emancipation, abolition, etc. Otherwise most everyone else, including other CW generals, should only be included if there is something linking to them specifically for Union Civil War cause. Kit Carson is a great example of someone who sure was in Civil War, but was known as frontiers man legend. Unless there is some symbol reflecting Kit in military uniform fighting or some clear mention it should be included, otherwise no. Kevin "Hawk" Fisher (talk) 19:28, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

I agree with you about consistency across the articles. Maybe once things die down, we can get consensus to bring them into congruence. Mojoworker (talk) 19:59, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

So I think using Lincoln's beard as a deciding factor is a good start. That he needed to grow a beard to look Presidential was suggested to him by an 11 year old girl, whose advice he took. Somewhere there is a statue of him meeting the girl, but that happened on his way to Washington, so is pre-CW. I have seen the Kit Carson monument in Denver listed as a CW monument, but I have seen it and do not think it is a Civil War monument. With Grant, in a statue if he is in a uniform, that's good, but having a county named after him in Nebraska, which has counties named after a bunch of other Presidents, I don't think so. As far as the other article goes. as Dylan once said, "Most likely you go your way and I'll go mine." Or if you prefer Doris Day, "The future's not ours to see, que serra serra." Carptrash (talk) 21:27, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes I totally agree with all of that. Grant, Lincoln without beard unless has some other obvious CW sign. I realize it is a double standard, yet sadly think it exists especially as it was Lincoln getting elected that was the final straw as well as his decision to send provisions to southern forts. So leaving Fort Carson, CO off, everything I can find references for as frontiersman, explorer of west, scout, etc. Which imho would be different if Fort Carson was in like NM, more debatable even though he had home in Taos, a NM base would have had more of a direct association to his primary CW actions. As to congruence, think will always be agree to disagree over such controversial topic for long time to come. Kevin "Hawk" Fisher (talk) 03:37, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

And I don't think it is a double standard at all. I think it is common sense. I did run into a Lincoln statue - a newish one- in front of the courthouse where he used to practice law, but I can't remember where that was? Anyway, probably was beardless. i wonder where my pictures are? Carptrash (talk) 04:30, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

I did get a reply from the Lincoln NE library that was a discussion of the naming of the city with no mention of the CW. When I asked the librarian for her opinion, here is what i got in reply.

"Personally, I would not say that it is a Civil War memorial. Lancaster was renamed Lincoln in Lincoln's honor after he was assassinated. The naming was to honor President Abraham Lincoln, not the Civil War. I have not seen anything about Lincoln, Nebraska's history to suggest that Lancaster was renamed as a Civil War memorial."

Which is good enough for me. I will argue against including Lincoln, Nebraska as a CW memorial. Carptrash (talk) 17:34, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Ha ha, been running across several of your pics all over the place. Lincoln NE coincides with what I have seen elsewhere too. Not the greatest of sources, as pretty quick and dirty list of place names (found couple minor errors) but one I have handy about Lincoln county simply mentions President. Been using it as starter, than try to confirm elsewhere.

John A. Logan place names are proving to be difficult. Anyway will work more on him and Sheridan later. Kevin "Hawk" Fisher (talk) 18:55, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

I have been posting pictures of statues on wikipedia for a dozen years, so yes, they are around. I am having a sort of second wind with these monuments, just did (I think) a Chicago Logan and am on to Chicago Sheridan next. Carptrash (talk) 20:51, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

References

Sorry

I am sorry, but I just could not help myself. Yes I know it needs removed, but darn I just cant help it. I do promiss not to do it anymore though :D Kevin "Hawk" Fisher (talk) 15:14, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Coins, stamps, bases, roads, and the like

Are not usually listed as monuments & memorials. Only the List of Confederate monuments and memorials does this. The other over 400 Lists of monuments and memorials do not. The argument that "they do it there at the CSA list so we should here" is not compelling to me, given those realities. We do not need to push American exceptionalism here. I am inclined to remove these listings, but, we have a relationship, which means we talk about things. Carptrash (talk) 17:50, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

@Carptrash: Roads and the like, I agree and never intended to especially add any roads. Maybe mention couple of the major Highways .. or not. As to Coins and Stamps, I added them mostly to give some consistency, even if it is not normally done, as you stated it has been done on the CSA list. While I am not in agreement with lot of CSA list, so do not want to make it totally consistent, I still like at least some form of consistency or resemblance to both the Civil War lists. However, I was really just wanting to add some of the main ones (ie: everyone knows Lincoln Memorial is depicted on $5 bill) or short summary to give some examples. For example there are prolly tons more stamps, which I do not intend to add, but I did list 5cent stamp Emancipation Proclamation to give an example of how varied and what all types of things have been done as Memorials for the Union. I personally am not really too stressed about it one or another, so long as it is kept to minimum (as stated more summary) or simply removed and not added. I do request however if they are removed, that is some mention in the lede to give an idea of various types of Memorials. Kevin "Hawk" Fisher (talk) 06:06, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

I will just add what I normally add, probably will not be any contentious stuff, if I add at all. I would like to see the article grow into being a fairly complete listing of statues and bas reliefs and that sort of thing. Mostly, for my perspective, peace and quiet would be nice. Carptrash (talk) 16:05, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Washington (state) added a monument that was missed, but need citations

I added missing monuments, but I did not think google was a good source for citations, perhaps I could get some help finding better sources. Thanks C. W. Gilmore (talk) 22:39, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Here is the problem that I have with parks and roads and that stuff. They were not built to be memorials, they were built to be parks and roads. So it is just the name that is the memorial and I don't feel that they belong here. Imagine if we decided to include every Washington Street in the USA in the List of memorials to George Washington. Boggles the mind, doesn't it? And then we do it again for Memorials to Abraham Lincoln. No thanks. Carptrash (talk) 00:15, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks but that part in Port Angeles is nothing more than a square built around the monument, it is the center of the little courtyard garden. I will work on finding better sources over the week. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 00:25, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

No worries and thank you for the sources, I was not sure about using waymaks. Thanks again for the help. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 01:51, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Union Street

Does a street named "Union Street" count? What else could this street possibly be named for? Brandonrush Woo pig sooie! 01:10, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Pittsburgh

Can someone please add to the list the Soldiers and Sailors Memorial Hall in Pittsburgh? This building and institution was originally built in honor of Civil War soldiers. Jmillerpgh (talk) 00:59, 29 June 2023 (UTC)