Talk:List of Tau Epsilon Phi chapters/Archive 1

Archive 1

Creation

I created this page in accordance with Wikipedia policy of not having an entire chapter list on a fraternity's article page. Jmlk17 21:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I weep for the loss of Beta Delta. bd2412 T 23:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I hear ya, I also weep for the loss of Tau Gamma - TG703 - Timmccloud 12:12, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

• I've updated this chapter list to be as inclusive as possible - please update the list if you see any missing chapters. There are a lot of gaps in the greek alphabet, so I'm thinking there is a lot that's missing. To the best of my knowledge and abilty, this is the the most accurate list of chapters of TEP - current and dormant - available on the web. Timmccloud 21:48, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Links to chapters

Note: I have moved this topic from the main TEP page to this discussion forum, as it's a more appropriate place for it. Timmccloud 21:39, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

• (Metros232) I completely disagree with your removal of chapter links from the Tau Epsilon Phi page.

You quote [WP:EL] as a reason, and I disagree - a national fraternity is the sum of its chapters, so there is a 'direct' and 'symmetrical' link between the two.

You quote [WP:NOT] as a reason, and whereas I might agree they do not belong as a list of links, they do have a place in the article..

Because of this, I am restoring the chapter list. However, my restoration will not be in an "external link" form, which I hope addresses your WP:NOT issues. Timmccloud 23:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• I see you restored the chapter information. Would you concede, at least, to removing all the external links in the left hand column? This is the big concern that we have about these chapter lists is that they often just become a directory for the links of each chapter. Would you consider adding one external link in the external link section to the chapter page on the national website which has such a directory of links? Everything else is fine, it's just the directory of links that is believed to violate WP:NOT and WP:EL. Thanks, Metros232 23:58, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• Thank you for your feedback! Metros, were it any other fraternity, I might consider your suggestion of a single link to a chapter list. However, the link you referred to was not the national fraternity list of chapters (it belongs to one chapter who found a need for it), and our national fraternity isn't very "web savy" so there is no working list of chapters on the national website I can refer to from the article (there is a spot on the site, and it's been broken for 4 years). Also, if the chapter name is going to be listed, why can't it be a link? The link establishes the veracity of the information provided in the chapter list, there is no "extra" space being wasted on the rendered page, and any information that is chapter specific can be left out of the main page because the link allows external reference (I did put the "notes" area for minor information). I have read the articles you refer to in the WP:EL and WP:NOT and also other references you have placed above discussing the links to chapters, and I still disagree with them. A fraternity cannot exist without it's chapters. Also encyclopedic content must be supported with valid references - and a chapter's website should be considered a valid reference for it's own existence. I would go even further to disagree with removing the links because they are used as a list - wiki's by their very nature require public interest in keeping them updated, and apparently people want to list their own chapters. What better way to keep the list of fraternity chapters up to date than to allow people to post their own chapter's link, in order that it may be used as a reference for someone trying to find specific chapter information? As I stated above, I will agree with WP:NOT as far as having chapter websites defined as external links being incorrect. Chapters have a much more direct and symmetric relationship to the national fraternity than just being cited as an external link, they are the purpose the organization exists in the first place. Timmccloud 00:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
• Moved discussion about links from our talk pages to this page. Timmccloud 00:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
  • But where does it stop? Suppose that someone felt that the Benevolent and Protective Order of Elks should do the same thing and include the link for each of their chapters...there's over 2100 of 'em. We did the same thing at FBLA-PBL, a student organization that has chartered 15000+ chapters in secondary and post-secondary schools. We had a link for almost every state's chapter (and a few local chapters) at one point and reduced it to the 2 links of chapter directories we have now. I think that the link I provided would be an alright addition to the external links. I don't think that creating our own little directory is appropriate, however. Yes, we can mention where the chapters are, yes we can mention what "number" chapter they are, yes we can mention when they were founded, but I think links to individual chapters' websites is inappropriate per our guidelines. I invite you to add your 2 cents to our discussion at WP:AN#Fraternities and sororities. Thanks, Metros232 00:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
    • I will, thanks. Not tonight though, the wife just called and requested my presence at home - she wants me to feed her dinner. Thanks for your suggestions and help. I will at the very least sleep on it, as you have raised some good points. I don't agree with the replacement link though - that is not an exhaustive list. Question - If I hosted my own list on my own private website and linked to that - would that be acceptable?Timmccloud 00:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
      • It could be and it could not be. There are gray areas when it comes to linking to websites that you own. However, generally editors are comfortable with a user posting the link that they own to the article's talk page and then the editors deciding whether or not it is appropriate. In this case, I'd imagine it would be appropriate for the article and would be added with little debate. Metros232 02:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
      • OK, I'll work on a private page this weekend, and post it here for review before altering the article. I've been thinking of your points about large organizations (elks, etc.) and I think when it comes to scale like that, different rules need to apply. TEP isn't a rich or huge fraternity; the national director only does it part time from a small store front, and when a new director is elected, the NHQ changes to the new directors home town. That's just one of many reasons we only have a handful of chapters, and the national website hasn't been updated substantially in years. I'm sure that large organizations, like the ones you quoted (Elks again), have the wherewithal for national directories; in the absence of a national list for small organizations, I don't see why Wikipedia can't be the reference point. Also, you had mentioned that we can mention the name, location, and even founding date - in your large scale example, there would still be 15000+ lines to the table of "acceptable" information. So although I have really chewed on your point about large orgs, I don't believe that a "one size fits all" rule of thumb is fair to the smaller groups, where all the chapters can be listed (and linked) without causing the article size to become unwieldy, and especially cases where there isn't a alternative source to link to (such as TEP). Still, I am working through reading the fraternities and sororities discussion page, and I do thank you for taking the time to discuss it with me Metros :) Timmccloud 23:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
      • Well, I've completed my research and there is no one single website that contains an exhaustive list of TEP chapters. I've linked to 4 of them in the article, but they are voulenteer maintained, and each one has discrepancies. IMHO this would make it incumbent on us as wikipedia editors to pull the entire list into one place (here) and allow it to be used until another solution comes along. This is not original research - others have compiled the data, we are just brining it in to one centralized place. Once there is a site with a) staying power beyond someones 4 year degree and b) an authoriatative reference, we can change the article to that, but for now this is it. And it's not that long, so the "elks" rule of thumb just doesn't apply here.

Updated with References

I've updated the article with references for all of the current entries. At this point in time, this article is the most accurate and exhaustive repository of TEΦ chapter information anywhere on the net. There are a lot of partial lists out there - some have even link rotted since they were originally used for the article, but none are as completely exhaustive as this one, with all of the information included. Please help improve the article! Timmccloud (talk) 21:53, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Epsilon Nu Chapter - RIT

This chapter is still active. The charter was pulled in 2001, but the chapter was rechartered in 2002 by National. It's basically in limbo right now. National does recognize the chapter and its right to exist, the school on the other hand doesn't and won't recognize it. They still have active brothers, still pay dues, still have pledge classes, and represent TEP. Just an FYI. Oh and happy founders day :) (Jdsmith624 20:32, 11 October 2007 (UTC))

• Link some evidence of this, and I will change the main article. Is there a chapter website? Timmccloud 02:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Missing Chapters

Here is a call out to any TEΦ scholars out there - at one time or another there were 138 different TEΦ Chapters! Can anyone find details on any of these, with enough reference material online or in published documents, that we can include them in the article? Here is the list of chapters that are missing from the article:

Alpha Beta, Alpha Gamma Phi, Alpha Omega, Alpha Sigma, Delta Chi, Delta Epsilon, Delta Tau, Delta Upsilon, Epsilon Alpha, Epsilon Beta, Epsilon Delta, Epsilon Gamma, Epsilon Lambda, Epsilon Mu, Epsilon Omega, Epsilon Omicron, Epsilon Pi, Epsilon Psi, Epsilon Sigma, Epsilon Zeta, Gamma Alpha, Gamma Delta Xi, Gamma Sigma, Kappa, Kappa Delta, Kappa Gamma, Kappa Iota Chi, Mu Alpha Delta, Nu Kappa Omega, Omega Beta Psi, Omega Lambda Chi, Omega Upsilon Chi, Omicron, Phi Alpha, Phi Beta, Phi Delta, Phi Delta Upsilon, Phi Deuteron, Phi Kappa, Phi Lambda, Phi Nu, Phi Omega, Phi Sigma, Phi Upsilon, Phi Upsilon, Phi Xi, Phi Zeta, Pi, Pi Beta, Pi Rho, Sigma Iota Alpha, Sigma Mu, Sigma Phi, Tau, Tau Chi, Tau Epsilon, Tau Eta, Tau Eta Epsilon, Tau Iota, Tau Kappa, Tau Kappa Beta, Tau Lambda, Tau Mu, Tau Nu, Tau Omicron, Tau Phi, Tau Pi, Tau Rho, Tau Sigma, Tau Sigma Upsilon, Tau Theta, Tau Xi, Tau Zeta, Theta Gamma Sigma, Upsilon, Zeta Lambda Phi

If you don't have enough information to source the article (like you attended one), please put any information you have here in the discussion page so that at least the information won't be lost, and others can work on finding source material for your information. Timmccloud (talk) 21:55, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Some of the older information should be in the Portals. I don't have mine anymore, so I can't check, but the first 60 chapters or so should be in there. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 02:52, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

• Updated - Tau Zeta is in the list. TΓ703 Timmccloud (talk) 22:35, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
• Updated - Tau Eta - Univ of Denver - is on the list Timmccloud (talk) 13:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
• Updated - Delta Upsilon, Duke University added TΓ703 Timmccloud (talk) 01:27, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
• Updated - I still have my Portals, so I've added every chapter with full activation dates and added the ones since my copy was printed based on info from the TEP.org website. I also updated some errors that were in the Portals (WVU listed as UVA, etc.). Kenton1971 (talk) 01:31, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Chapter at Duke

Of the missing chapters, I can confirm that Duke was one of them. I can trace them back as early as 1953, and the last of their pledges graduated in 1983, so they likely deactivated around 80/81. No chapter name, unfortunately.

-ekozie [@gmail.com] (talk) 15:24, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

• Updated: Delta Upsilon was around 1952-1981. http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/rbmscl/uatepdelta/inv/ -ekozie [@gmail.com] (talk) 15:28, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Recent edits

An anonymous editor made a number of edits to this chapter list on 1 Feb 2021. Without using a named Wikipedia editor account, they may be subject to inadvertent reversion - there is a perception that anonymous accounts are masked for some reason, or have a high likelihood of being used for vandalism. Further, without an account other users do not have a way to contact the editor, or discuss these changes on their personal Talk page. Please create an account; it can be a nickname. We welcome your input. I see, too, a few chapters were deleted instead of moving them between sections. (Epsilon Theta chapter and Phi Chi chapter, for example.) Had they been incorrectly listed as ΤΕΦ chapters?

Named users are also welcome to join the Fraternities & Sororities Project. Jax MN (talk) 18:10, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Updated resource, comprehensive list

Several editors have struggled to reconstruct an accurate list of chapters. This reference may be a big help. It's the Baird's Manual online archive, which has been researched somewhat quietly as an expansion of the material in the last printed version of Baird's from 1991.

The Baird's Manual Online Archive homepage

To search for Tau Epsilon Phi, select the "Men's Groups" link, and then "T", searching for the fraternity within the long PDF, which for convenience I am also linking here: The "T" section of the active men's fraternities list.

Now, one must get accustomed to the syntax used in the archive. I'll give you three examples to chew on:

• Look at the listing for Rho chapter at the University of Pennsylvania. Rather than "UPenn", the Archive typically writes out the long form of the school name. The dates to the right show it was active beginning in 1921, and as it is bolded, the Archive understands the chapter to continue as active today. Its full range of activity is shown on the right, thus 1921-present. To the left are three dashes (- - -), which are placeholders to show that this chapter's origin is unknown; it may have come from a colony, or may have come from a predecessor local chapter. Where known, the archive will list the start date of the predecessor local on the far left; but the left hand dates do not impact the order. Rather, the Archive lists chapters by date of installation (not colonization) in the final fraternity, even if the alphabetization is non-conforming. (Many national organizations have haphazard naming order within their earliest chapters, thus Baird's has always settled on using date.) The archive will list predecessor groups in many cases, but in this case has no information on a predecessor for Rho chapter. Note too, that the immediate next line shows a period of inactivity for Rho chapter between 1972-1985. This indicates a re-colonization endeavor for the UPenn group, this time successful.
• The listing for Omicron chapter is similar, with an unknown beginning prior to its chartering year of 1920. It went dormant in 1970, and is therefore shown in plain text, not bold. It also has one of the relatively few errors in the archive, showing a range of inactivity that has an obvious typo, of 1949-1947. Understanding how wartime stress affected Canadian chapters in 1939, I assume the inactivity was from 1939-1947; but The Plume may provide a definitive correction.
• Finally, Xi chapter at MIT was established in 1919, and continues active today (bolded). But it was dormant for a time, from 1930-1957. At re-establishment the colonizing group was named the T.E.P. Club, formed in 1953, obviously with intentions of earning the Greek letters for the fraternity. Elsewhere, absorbed groups are listed with local names; sometimes these names were granted as the chapter designation.

Researchers may also search the "Institutions" link, which will allow you to cross-reference any chapters and their predecessors. In other articles I've begun to note their predecessor (local) groups with a reference citation. These will usually match the pages(s) for the fraternity itself, but if you find an error, let the archivist know. There is a link at the bottom of the main archive page that allows you to send in corrections in case you find any errors. In my experience there are very few. Finally, here is a reference template you can use when citing information back on the List article itself.

References

Jax MN (talk) 16:45, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Alphabetization

One of the many, many problems we have wrestled with here on Wikipedia, regarding the Greek Letter Organizations, is how to sort lists of chapters. Timmccloud, you've pressed for alphabetization... OK, but this begs the question, which alphabetization? Greek or English letter order? What our Fraternity and Sorority Project has landed upon as a solution allows multiple sort columns, and as a default, to lay out the chapters in order of founding. Here's a basic example, one of many: Delta Omega. Some editors have embellished with color separator bars or have default sorted large numbers of chapters by state, first, such as: List of Alpha Gamma Delta chapters. None of us seem to mind these minor stylistic variations. You may want to use one of these sort table examples for this page. By the way, nice work on your diligent efforts to update and improve these pages over the long years. I see you began well over a decade ago as a Wikipedia editor. Jax MN (talk) 16:58, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

@Jax MN, Now that TEP national has a complete list on their website, I found that they used a chapter numbering system. This was helpful in determining what chapters were missing from the list. However, the numbering system does not exactly follow charter date, so is probably the based on the colony's founding date. Question: should we order numerically or by charter date? No rush on deciding--range dates, date templates, and efn are still needed. However, it would be easier to leave in numerical order and might be a good compromise between the various editors. Rublamb (talk) 08:06, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

I was just reviewing your edits to the TEP list. Nice work. We should use the date of installation as the primary sort date. Colonies can grow faster or slower, but each actual chapter has a definitive installation date. Jax MN (talk) 16:41, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

I was asking if we should order between the installation date or the number. Sounds like you are in favor of the usual charter date. However, I just learned that some colonies were assigned names but never chartered. If chartered, the dates appear to be correct. However, if the colony went dormant before being installed, the dates listed are for the of operation of the colony. So that throws a wrinkle in organizing by date. I have added an efn indicating that these 3 were never chartered and have colony in the chapter title. I also have colony as status for the active colonies. (Note that they use two terms for colonies--I decided not to differentiate since I could not find a explanation or description of the difference between the two.) Have I done enough to explain that these dates are for a colony and not for installation. Any suggestions? Rublamb (talk) 19:09, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

I think so. Early copies of Baird's helped corral the various national societies toward a standard numbering or dating system, but outliers remain. Some grew so large, so early, that the cookies were baked before the out-of-step situation was realized. For them, EFNs that explain the outliers seem the best way to address why. Jax MN (talk) 21:53, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Format updates

I will be implementing some table format updates to be more consistent with the Wikipedia:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities guidelines. This includes merging the active and inactive chapters. Although the tables may look different, I will not be removing any existing information. Rublamb (talk) 02:35, 13 May 2023 (UTC)