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Regarding mergers of Macross characters into Robotech Characters page

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Honestly, I don't feel that this would be a particularly good idea. Even though there are numerous similarities from the original to Robotech, there are also significant differences between interpretations of characters from one version to the other, due to translation issues, and the nature of Robotech as a combination of three unrelated shows into a single entity.

CBeilby 02:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merging; how to make a character list

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Per the discussion at Articles for deletion/Ben Dixon I've created this page and started work on merging the characters into it. Although I don't fully agree that all the individual character pages should be deleted / redirected here (for example, Minmei), the majority of the 30-some character pages contain only a few paragraphs, and mostly concern minor characters, so it seems appropriate to consolidate them in some way. Even as a Robotech fan, I think some of these characters have little hope for expansion into a substantial article.

Since there seems to be little interest, I'm taking this task upon myself as just out of necessity, but if anyone else out there is interested then some discussion about the right way to approach this would be benefical.

I'm not trying to get this all right in one go; I realize that some major changes to layout and wording may happen over time, but I'm simply trying to get a decent starting article up there. I've never created a character list on Wikipedia before, so some feedback on how to go about that would be especially appreciated. It seemed reasonable to me that for Robotech (and not Macross) characters, they be divided up by the generation they appear in since, save for maybe The Sentinels, I don't recall any overlap (There were story references to previous-generation characters, but not appearances by them)

Regarding which characters to redirect here, I think a few may merit keeping their own pages. Minmei is the best example, since references are made to her throughout many Macross series, which refer to a "Minmei Attack" (such as Macross Plus(?), etc) and since she's part of this franchise's story spanning so many iterations it wouldn't make sense to reduce her description to another short blurb TheBilly (talk) 03:07, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merging

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I think this is primarily a Macross argument. I don't see this problem for let's say Southern Cross characters or Mospeada characters. Strange really, considering the central premise of Robotech is taken from those two series and not on Macross.

Anyway, this whole "based on" idea should be scrapped, because Robotech characters were not "based on" the original source characters. Robotech is based on the show. The characters are simply there, and, while sharing animation with the original sources, ended up being different altogether due to the convergence of 25 years of creative, translation, amalgamation, broadcasting issues. Just as an example, Robotech Roy is much more serious and much less freewheeling than Macross Roy, if only because 1980s American TV could not allow the drunken sometimes profanity-laced action of Macross Roy to be shown to children.

I think it is better to say that they are "equivalents of" each other. As in they have equivalent places in the animation, but allowing for the idea that they have individual, separate developments within each storyline.

I actually think that enhancing each of the individual character profiles would be more beneficial than this list, especially since there is already a list of both Robotech and Macross characters. For minor characters, have both information available in the same profile... while major characters will have their profiles separate. Sounds a lot more simple to me... and apparently to those who set it up this way already.

By the way, you are missing the Shadow Chronicles information. Kinglehr (talk) 07:33, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Khyron

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I think that Khyron should not be included into this article. Just look at Spanish and Serbian wikipedia. -- Bojan  22:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't merge them

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I don't think we should merge them. The resulting article would be too long. We should keep them separate to make the more manageable. (99.240.181.177 (talk) 21:06, 11 May 2008 (UTC))[reply]

It might be workable if we seperate them into groups.--Marhawkman (talk) 14:22, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The articles have to remain separate. If we make them into a bunch of big articles, they will become too big, and will be edited too often (the more information is on an article, the more potenial edits and additions we be made). It's just not workable. It's best they remain individual articles. (Hyperionsteel (talk) 21:42, 9 July 2008 (UTC))[reply]

I think Johnathan Wolfe and Marcus Rush should be merged as they are both minor characters Dwanyewest (talk) 02:04, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have mentioned this before but here I go AGAIN.
List of Robotech characters is in need of reform and links formatted because its hard to read as its unwieldy and has no consistency. I added character inboxes to the most notable characters and this is a list of characters I feel should be merged and split
These are the articles I think should split to avoid confusion

Dwanyewest (talk) 15:58, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merging doesn't mean "keep everything that is written in the articles and put them in a single article". In th next days I'll nominate for AfD some minor characters. I have to check them first. -- Magioladitis (talk) 09:17, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While we are at it these characters need to be merged to this page

Rand (Robotech)

Wealth of Information

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I am surprised the official Robotech website is not used more often to support information regarding characters as a whole look [1]. I have only started watching this show on DVD recently and I am shocked and surprised from what I found that very little official information from the website is used to support information written on the using a reliable source. One of the problems I have is there are too many self published sources and is the burden of the writer to prove what they are saying is true

Dwanyewest (talk) 23:43, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Marlene Rush

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See this version of the above article for information that should be merged here. At that time that article should be redirected here, as its current target contains no information whatsoever. G.A.S 17:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article needs renaming

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I believe List of Robotech characters should be renamed List of minor Robotech characters because if the main characters have sufficent information to justify a solo article it seems unecessary to put the same information on the List of Robotech articlces. I believe that this article should be renamed and reserved for minor characters.

Dwanyewest (talk) 14:04, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Weak disagree - while the coverage of characters should be kept to a minimum and linked with a main tag, I see no reason to limit this list to just the minor characters. Jminthorne (talk) 06:43, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting merge. Nice and long.

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121 kilobytes long. Interesting. I see the WP:SIZE rules have changed. It now reads that if its 400k long, you should WP:split it into side articles, since modern browsers can handle up to that amount. So, all information will be kept then? When there aren't as many people around to notice, no one is going to come in and decide to delete 90% of it? That has been known to happen. I think its great to have as much information about all of the characters as possible. Gives fans of the series something interesting to read. Dream Focus 17:17, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Maia Sterling

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Aurora Sterling is a character from Robotech II: The Sentinels who did not appear in the completed animation. However, her character design for the show can be seen in the Robotech Masters Legacy Collection 5 extras DVD. Aurora was not invented for the novels, but the novels go into more detail about her as they do with everything else in Robotech. Armobomber (talk) 01:10, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Orphaned references in List of Robotech characters

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I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of Robotech characters's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Robotech71":

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 01:56, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is a bizarre test for a page (that mainly doesn't work)

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I'm a little confused by the idea on this site that we need to both separate Macross and Robotech pages while also making it clear that Robotech is somehow inferior. A lot of these "character bios" are clearly scraped from Macross Saga pages to remove reference to the Robotech version, with nothing more than a reference to how they're different from the Macross version, while making it clear that the Macross version needs a page while the Robotech version doesn't. I can understand moving a lot of the mind characters in Robotech to a list (and there are a LOT of them!) but to shove EVERY page into one article, event characters whose stories diverge from the Macross version and create a new, just as notable story, and to still keep the near-stub Macross article standing is highly bizarre and unfair. Rick Hunter, for instance, has a whole lot of places they take his legacy after the Macross Saga in the show and where they take him literally in comics and novels, and meanwhile Hikaru Ichijyo is borderline stub, but gets to keep its place as a page? Why hasn't his page been cut and pasted to a list with the original carcass being made into a redirect? And why are we doing this to every character, including the non-Macross Saga counterparts, and shoving them onto a "low-importance" page? Surely Rick, Dana, and Scott at least deserve their own pages, they're all completely divergent from the originals and are just as notable in popular knowledge today.

Why remove any reference to the Robotech adaptation from the original Japanese pages? They still exist, all this stuff still happened, the page should mention the other version and touch up on differences, not pretend that the show didn't exist except for one DAB link. As a Wiki of info, you should at LEAST detail the differences between the two versions on the Japanese page, as that is a leading interest of many readers, and you shouldn't scrape away any reference to the adaptation like a bit of gun on the sidewalk. Why is the Macross series notable enough to have 30 pages per series, but Robotech can't even keep one character page? Why do some of the Robotech characters in this list not link back to their Japanese coutnerparts, or even reference the adaptation? It's either that the whole description is the difference between the original and the adaptation, or the original reference doesn't exist. This isn't even a really page, it's a scrapbook of other pages pasted together with no reasoning. You've separated these pages without caring, shoved bits that clearly don't got together onto a list, and flung a middle finger towards the people that do see the Robotech version as notable (a lot of the anime fandom) and tried to somehow erase that it existed from the Japanese pages. This is such a bizarre mess of a page that I don't know how it got made without any human insight. 139.55.7.108 (talk) 16:24, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I also note that many of the "discussions" that lead to merging don't seem to actually exist 139.55.7.108 (talk) 16:27, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is an encyclopedia, not a fan site. If you want pages of detailed character information then you should check out wikia. As for Macross, the characters haven't been merged into a single page yet. We go by notability here in the form of sources for the characters, books of Robotech/Macross don't really count as most are self published (no other reliable source talks about them that is non self published) or are primary sources (The company that made Macross/Robotech uses the book as promotion). - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:11, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, IP editor. Couple of points:

  1. Wikipedia "low-importance" and "high-importance" pages is just categorical stuff - it doesn't matter or denote a page's value or content. Just its relative importance to the topic as a whole.
  2. This page is a mess. Its basically a dumping ground because no one has sorted the context and the relevant material out from the scrapped biographies. You could do this if you wish, it requires someone with experience and an eye for detail.
  3. Macross and many other topics are poorly maintained and often suffer because the pages are about "fictional topics" which has stigma to some of Wikipedia's editors. Such a topic suffers from great difficulty due to the differences in era, source material, language and the sheer complexity.
  4. The original page - Robotech - doesn't even begin to get into its development and production. The topic needs much love and attention because the main incoming page is nothing more than a list of works itself. With more encyclopedic content comes a natural need for more pages to organize and delve into the details for a topic.

If anything - work on these topics is hard and you are forging a path that needs to tread a balance between the uninformed reader who seeks knowledge on the subject without being verbose. Like a five page report in academia: the background, development and response to the topic will be essential to making relevant and proper pages worthy of Wikipedia. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:03, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair, all of the Robotech articles are terrible. Many of them consist of entire paragraphs of excessive unsourced detail, and when they are sourced tend to be from fansites/or about as professionally as fan pieces. One of the reasons for this is that typically, older works don't get much attention for various reasons. Character articles for any series should just be accepted as likely to be poor, they are quite difficult well to do without a lot of effort which most people aren't going to put in. It's easier when it's a tv-original anime with no spin offs. It's harder when two divergent series use the same characters and then have their own individual spin offs. As for merge discussions, these actually aren't required, but there were proposals to delete (and iirc deletion discussions) that led to the merges. In any event, the main Robotech page needs fixing before worrying about the character list too much. SephyTheThird (talk) 09:16, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's true, looking over this list, it's clear that a lot of it is just not Wikipedia worth. Still, I am horrified by how little the person who slapped this together seemed to care about it himself — half of the info here is clearly meant for the Macross versions of the characters — just look at the Bridge Bunnies section, which lists the Japanese voice actors and the ADV voice actors but NOT the Robotech voice actors. This is a real mess.
Here's a question I got, if someone where to try and add info to the Macross pages about the adaptation to Robotech and how the characters changed, wouldn't that qualify enough as a page itself? And if someone did try this, would it just be removed on the basis that it's not "what the site wants?" This is a very confusing set-up that clearly has a series of better options. 139.55.39.227 (talk) 02:18, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to be trying to expand and fix some of the parts of this article -- for the purpose of making the article better and not because I want the articles to be separate (I don't for the most part). I do however question why these pages were scrapped when their Macross equivilants, which are just as poor off, instead have pleas to help clean them up. Of coarse the reason behind this is that there is a lot more resentment towards Robotech in the anime community, and thus it's far easier to delete the Robotech pages and clean up the Macross pages. Hopefully we can see a nice balance in between at some point -- I believe that many Macross pages need to be compiled into a list like this one, while a few pages here deserve the opposite. Either way, these are long-term goals, and they only way to reach them are through small steps. OttselSpy25 (talk) 04:51, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

How sections should be sorted

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Should the sections on characters discuss their adventures in chronological order order of publication? This is important in discussing each article. If we do it one way, we discuss the appearances in Robotech: The Graphic Novel and the From the Stars series first, then discuss the events of the show. Then the issue arises on how to discuss stories now "abandoned" by the show-makers. If anything, I'd say that the issues with most of these sections is that they're too long -- there's too much info on Rick Hunter to write it from a real-world point of view, and it's hard to convert it into a more Wikipedia-prone piece without culling so much work by others, which feels very wrong. Anyone have any thoughts? OttselSpy25 (talk) 05:55, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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