Talk:List of Parliament of Scotland constituencies in 1707

References

What are the references for this article? Is the initiator absolutely sure about the naming of the counties? Caithness-shire? Are you absolutely sure about that? Pre-Union?--Mais oui! 02:15, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

• I have not yet completed the article, so I had not got to the references. The list I have does use some unusual names for counties, some of which I have not seen in other sources. Caithness-shire is not however in that category.

• Some years ago I had a chance to see a copy of a book reporting on the members elected to past Parliaments in the British Isles. Parliament had ordered it to be printed in 1878. I took notes from the book about the Parliament of Scotland constituencies in existence in 1703, which is the list I am repeating in the article.

• Henry Stooks Smith in his (rather inaccurately titled) book The Parliaments of England, originaly published in 1844-50, refers to the constituency from 1832 as Caithness-shire. He does not seem to use the 'shire' suffix for the first of the pairs of counties alternately represented before that. Stooks Smith may not be 100% reliable. However in the index to the second edition of the work, added to the original work in 1973, the Scottish writer on electoral matters F.W.S. Craig uses Caithness-shire for both the pre and post 1832 constituency. Despite that in his own British Parliamentary Election Results series (which starts in 1832), Craig refers to the county as Caithness.

• Another modern secondary source, British Historical Facts 1760-1830 (published 1980), has a list of Scottish counties. Caithness is one of the few not given a shire suffix, as is Fife (another county which ended in shire in my Victorian sources).

• It may be that Victorians were eager to add 'shire' to every county name, whether or not it was historicaly justified. I will do some more checking but in the meantime I have added a note about county names in the article.

• Gary J --195.93.21.103 09:29, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. The issue is: what did the Scots call these counties themselves, prior to 1707, not what did Victorians later re-label them. It is a fundamental point that crops up again and again in all the counties of Scotland articles. It would be lovely to find one or two bona fide, authoritative sources from Scotland itself, prior to the Union, or at least during the 18th century, because we all know that the Victorians started anglifying Scottish, Welsh and Irish place-names like mad during the 19th century.--Mais oui! 13:11, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Do we actually have any pre-Union Scottish sources that refer to these subdivisions as "counties"? As far as I am aware, Scotland prior to the Union was administered on a burgh basis, with no county administrations until the 19th century.--Mais oui! 13:14, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I have a copy of the Act passed by the Parliament of Scotland to implement the election provisions of the Act of Union. It refers to "... of the said Fourty five Representatives of Scotland in the house of Commons in the Parliament of Great Britain Thirty shall be chosen by the Shires or Stewartries and Fifteen by the Royal Burrows as follows viz. One for every Shire and Stewartry excepting the Shires of Bute and Caithness which shall choose one by turns ..." (and so on with the other two pairs of Shires electing by turns and the definition of the Districts of Burghs).

Shire is an old English (and presumably Scots) word for a county and seems to have been the term early 18th century Scots would actualy have used. It was not a usage unknown in England either, the county members of Parliament were known as the Knights of the Shires until comparitively recent times. I am not sure what administrative arrangements existed for pre-Union local government in rural Scotland but I do not think it can be denied that the Shires and Stewartries existed and we might as well call them counties (unless it can be demonstrated that the Scots would have rejected that term completely). --Gary J 02:06, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I have now found the Scottish Address to the Prince of Orange in 1689 at http://www.jacobite.ca/documents/16890110.htm

which asks the Prince to summon a meeting of the States of the nation and explains how that is done. "... by your letters or proclamation to be published at the Market-cross of Edinburgh and other head boroughs of the seveal shires and stewartries, as sufficient intimation to all concerned and according to the custom of the kingdom. And that the publication of these your letters or proclamation, be by the sheriffs or stewart-clerks, for the free-holders who have the value of lands holden according to law, for making elections, and by the town-clerks of the several boroughs, for the meeting of the whole burgesses of the respective royal boroughs, to make their elections at least fifteen days before the meeting of the Estates at Edinburgh; and the respective clerks to make intimation thereof at least ten days before the meetings for elections ...". This document confirms the usage of 'shires and stewartries' for the non-Burgh constituencies which elected members to the Estates of Scotland, which is another term for the Parliament of Scotland. I think I will include mention of the terms in the article. --Gary J 02:33, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I have now looked ar The History of Parliament: House of Commons 1754-1790. The Scottish articles include letters written by Scottish political figures, which demonstrate that they were referring to counties not shires within fifty years of the Union. I will have to see if I can find some other sources for the first half of the 18th century.--Gary J 19:05, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Excellent work. Thank you very much for all the time and research you are putting into this. The Prince of Orange was probably using English scribes (eg. English spelling "boroughs"). Do we have any evidence what Scots themselves referred to the "counties" as, during the 17th, 16th, 15th, 14th centuries and earlier? I strongly suspect that "stewartry" was the indigenous term, and that "shire" was a late anglicisation, soon superceded by another anglicisation: "county". (Of course neither England nor Scotland ever had "counts",... must be continental in origin).--Mais oui! 23:04, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. Commissioners of Supply were established in what became the counties in 1667. In some ways they were the predecessors of the county councils. Anyway, According to Google, there are 18th century references to "Commissioners of Supply for the County of Cromarty" (1756) "Commissioners of Supply for Banffshire" (1722), and "Commissioners of Supply in the Shire of Lanark" (1764). I believe the native term was "sherrifdom" 25 of these are listed in an ordinance in 1305. The earliest ones dated from the 12th century. Not sure if this helps... Lozleader 23:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes it does. Thanks.--Mais oui! 23:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure Mais Oui's stewartry theory is right. There is an explanation of why Kirkcudbright was a stewartry and not a shire. "The Stewartry of Kirkcudbright (so called because in the Middle Ages it was administered by a Steward, whereas the Shires had sheriffs) ...". That is from a website about the modern Stewartry area

http://www.discoverscotland.net/stewartry.htm

Lozleader's information about sherrifdoms is interesting. In modern Scotland a sheriff is a judge and there are six judicial areas called sheriffdoms. At some point the administrative and judicial areas must have been separated.

I have also found extracts from A Concise History of Scotland, which confirms that King David I of Scotland was responsible for creating counties (by which the author is presumably referring to some of the areas known as shires in 1707). King David reigned in the 12th century which ties in with Lozleader's information.

"Over all this activity David presided, governing with efficiency, using methods which he had learned from the Normans. The country was, for the most part, divided anew into units called counties, which a royal official, the Sheriff, would supervise. The Sheriffs and their counties came under the further supervision of the king's Justiciar, and royal castles were built at key points, where they did not already exist, to provide the administrative and military centres from which the Sheriffs and the Justiciar could work".

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/scotland/chap3.htm

In a History of Stirlingshire (last published 1880, so out of copyright), there is some discussion of the roles of sheriffs and justices of the peace. I did not see any obvious reference to the creation of Stirlingshire, let alone what it was originaly called.

"POLICE.- Sheriffs are mentioned under Alexander I. and David I., though they did not extend over North Britain. But many places - Scone, Edinburgh castle, and other fortresses, and some towns - had sheriffs, without forming sheriffdoms. Galloway, Argyll, Ross, and the Western Isles, had remained, till later times, without sheriffs; while sheriffships, in other quarters, had become hereditary At first, the king appointed sheriffs, as servants and deputies; afterwards they came to be formally installed by the parliament. Bernard Frazer of Touch, a frequent witness to charters by Alexander II., was appointed sheriff of Stirling in 1234, in which year he swore to the performance of the Treaty of York. He was alive in November, 1247, and then witnessed a royal charter. Bernard seems to have been succeeded by his relative Gilbert Frazer, sheriff of Traquair, who had three sons - Symon, sheriff of Peebles from 1262 till 1268; Andrew de Touch, sheriff of Stirling in 1291-3; and William, bishop of St: Andrews and chancellor of Scotand. Andrew Dominus de Touch swore fealty to Edward I. at Dunfermline on the 17th of June, 1296. The sheriffship of Stirling remained among those Frazers till 1630, when David II., conferred it upon Sir Robert de Erskine, who was also constable and keeper of Edinburgh and Dumbarton castles, "Justiciar benorth the Forth, and great chamberlain of Scotland." It remained, with some interruptions, arising partly from civil commotion, in his family, till 1638; when John, eighth Earl of Marr of his surname, was induced to sell, to Charles I., the sheriffdom of Stirlingshire and baillary of the Forth, for £8,000 sterling. Sir James Livingston, first Earl of Callendar, was now made sheriff of the county. Under Cromwell, Sir William Bruce, baronet of Stenhouse, exercised the function. After the Restoration, it fell to George, third Earl of Linlithgow; and, upon the forfeiture of Alexander, fifth earl, in 1715, it was conferred upon his cousin-german, James, first Duke of Montrose.

Justices of the peace were instituted over Scotland, by Act of Parliament, in 1587. Their powers were further extended by another six years subsequent to the union of the crowns. The Act 1617 confirmed those of 1587 and 1609; and, expressing more particularly the powers and duties of justices and their constables, is, properly, the first general code of instructions for their regulation and guidance. The statute 1617 was ratified and confirmed by the parliament of Charles I., 1633; and empowered the lords of the privy council to enlarge the authority of the justices, and enforce obedience by penalty. Oliver Cromwell followed out the system; and was the first who, by the vigour of his measures, gave efficacy to it. One of his generals, afterwards celebrated as the restorer of the house of Stuart, Monck, on the 17th of May, 1654, from the garrison of Cardross, in the neighbourhood of Stirlingshire, desired the Earl of Airth "to order the cutting down of the woods of Milton and Gleshart in Aberfoyle, which (the general remarked) were great shelter to the rebels and mossers, and did thereby bring great inconveniences to the country thereabouts." Cromwell seems, also, to have availed himself of an institution of an earlier date, and sometimes abused under the semblance of order. A curious voucher to this effect was preserved by Archibald Edmonstone, Esq. of Spittal, a cadet of the family, and hereditary baron-bailie on the estate of Duntreath. "The Justices of his Highness' Peace" met, in quarter sessions at Stirling on the 3rd of February, 1658-9, enforced a contract, between Captain Hew MacGregor and the heritors and inhabitants of more than six parishes in the sheriffdom of Stirling, of which protection to their property on his part, and a certain remuneration on theirs, were the mutual stipulations. We subjoin a copy, the only accurate one, we believe, that has hitherto appeared in print. The difficulty of decyphering the word "Hew" had led to an unfortunate error in the statistical account, and its epitome, the "Beauties of Scotland." Captain MacGregor's petition, however it may, according to Dr. Jamieson, "show the weakness of the executive government" (a point not quite clear), illustrates the respect paid to the judicial, even during the Usurpation.

"At Stirling, in ane quarter session, held by sum justices of his highnes' peace upon the third day of Ffebruary, 1658, the Laird of Touch being chyrsman: - Upon reading of ane petition given in be Captain Mcgregor, mackand mention that several heritors and inhabitants of the paroches of Campsie, Dennie, Baldernock, Strablane, Killearn, Gargunnock, an uthers, wtin the Schirrefdome of Stirling; did agree with him to oversee and preserve thair houses, goods, and geir frae oppressioun, and accordinglie did pay him, and now that sum persones delay to mack payment according to agreement and use of payment; thairfoir it is ordered that all heritors and inhabitants of the paroches afoirsaid mack payment to the said Captain Mcgregor of their proportionnes for his said service, till the first of Ffebry last past, without delay. All constables in the severall paroches are hereby commandit to see this order put in execution, as they will answer the contrair. It is also hereby declared that all qo have been ingadgit in payment sall be liberat after such time that they goe to Captaine Hew Mcgregor, and declare to him that they are not to expect any service frae him, or he to expect any payment frae them. Just copie, extracted be James Stirling, cl. of the peace, ffor Archibald Edmonstone, bailzie of Duntreath, to be published at ye kirk of Strablane,"

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/stirlingshire/chap24.htm

I have found the online text of an Act of 1746, which is still referring to Scottish shires rather than counties. It may not be the major focus of the query but it would be interesting to know when the official usage changed. I may be able to find a collection of Scottish statutes in the Law Society Library and I will certainly be able to find the British laws. --Gary J 14:40, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Having looked at soms more on-line sources it is obvious that the history of Scottish sheriffdoms/shires/counties is of considerable complexity. What David I did was to appoint sheriffs to extend royal power. The sheriffs had some administrative and some judicial powers (not well defined in the sources I have consulted). The original sheriffdoms do not seem to coincide with the later counties. Often several were grouped together to become the later shires and the system was gradualy extended to the whole of Scotland. The A Vision of Britain web-site gives a short summary.

"Counties were administrative areas in Scotland from later medieval times until 1975. Initially the unit was a judicial one, the sheriffdom. Sheriffs were local judges and crown officials appointed from the 12th century until the present day. A sheriffdom consisted of a group of parishes over which the sheriff had jurisdiction. In the mid-nineteenth century the boundaries of some counties and sheriffdoms were to diverge".

It looks as if it is going to be necessary to look at each area individualy. There was no one time when the whole country was divided, it was all a gradual process which took place at different times in different places. I wonder if there are a series of Scottish county histories like the Victoria Histories of the counties of England?

--Gary J 18:49, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

University constituencies?

Please see:

• Talk:Parliament_of_Scotland#Articles_for_each_constituency

--Mais oui! 04:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Selkirk

Part of Linlithgow Burghs? seems unlikely. Shipsview (talk) 17:13, 4 December 2011 (UTC)