Talk:List of Lucifer episodes

Let´s talk fictional metaphysics

Chairhandlers and anyone interested. This is about a sentence in the last episode.

• With time stopped, Lucifer ignites the Blade and opens a dimensional rift to a pocket universe where his mother can create her own world free from God's influence.

I changed it to

• With time stopped, Lucifer ignites the Blade and opens a rift leading outside the universe, where his mother can create her own world free from God's influence.

and was reverted.

My reasoning is that there is nothing in that scene that makes this a Pocket universe, it´s only described as "nothing". The term indicates something under/part of the regular universe, and the point of Mums storyline is to get away from god´s creation (similar to Lucifer in the comic, but that´s beside the point). And so my version is slightly better, but I´m sure tweakings are possible, "portal" instead of "rift" etc. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:22, 18 August 2017 (UTC) I agree with that reasoning. But what do I know... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.226.108.27 (talk) 19:13, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, a pocket universe is how a new universe buds off another one, so that tracks. But calling it that would be a case of Putting More Thought Into It Than The Writers Ever Did. 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:3539:37B1:7E93:8990 (talk) 11:59, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

TBA episodes

@Jdavi333: I'll start a discussion here - please allow the status quo to remain while we discuss this and gain a consensus, especially given that only one editor (you) has thus far had an issue with it. Per the currently-standing consensus of the Television WikiProject, an episode can be listed as a row if two pieces of information are available (e.g. title/writer, title/director, title/full date, director/writer, etc.) You stated that If there is no episode name and/or no air date announced, there is no point in it being listed - three of of the four episodes do have titles. For all we know the episodes could air in a diff order or something - this is why their episode order, both overall and within the season, are listed as TBA. The episode information is available, we just don't know when it'll air, so we can list it, just without an order. -- Alex^TW 01:37, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

That's why I said "and/or". I think simply having a few peices of info does not make it encyclopedic. The point of the TV show articles, to me at least, seems to be a list of the show's episodes with basic info: name, date, director, writer, and a SHORT plot summary. I am of the (probably lone) opinion that the plot summaries are often waaaay too long. a basic 2 line summary should suffice. We are no a TV Guide. We aren't here to tell everyone what happened in the episode. Simply to be an encyclopedia. That's my 2 cents. Jdavi333 (talk) 01:51, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

I would agree that you're the only ones who believe that summaries should be that short, but we digress, as that is not what this discussion is about. I agree that we're not a TV guide, which is why we should be listing whatever information is available, given that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia of available information, not only episodes that have a previous or scheduled air date - that would make us a guide. What about episodes that only have a title and date, then? I'm not sure we should be hiding the episodes when the two pieces of information given are the episode's credits, and not the title and date, or the title and credits; both cases apply here. -- Alex^TW 02:05, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

No, he's quite right about the synopses, but we are never going to convince anyone whose favourite tv show is right up there with the bible and Shakespeare. 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:3539:37B1:7E93:8990 (talk) 11:55, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Ella Cheating...

Ella was *not* cheating at blackjack. She was caught for playing at a casino that she had been banned from for Card Counting. I'd like suggestions for rewording.Naraht (talk) 01:35, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Bonus episodes

I see someone added the bonus episodes to the end of season 3. Are we sure that’s the best place for them? 3.24 was clearly made to be the season finale and it doesn’t seem that those episodes will build on that story so placing them there without any context is a bit confusing. They were meant to be added to an unproduced season so perhaps we should leave them in their own section like we did before, though I’m not sure what their official status is. Thoughts? Dhalh (talk) 22:35, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

@Dhalh: Well, it's only going to air two weeks after the latest episode, and one this coming Wednesday in Australia, so I think it should be part of season 3. JE98 (talk) 22:46, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I agree,, Dhalh. I've restored the previous format and made the changes of Fox's airdate to the original unaired episodes table, retitling it as "Other produced episodes". The parent article should continue to list May 14 as the finale date, perhaps with a hat note like The Musketeers, but the number of episodes can be updated to 57. -- Alex^TW 22:47, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Just noting that these episodes are cited as having been made for the third season but held over, so that needs to be made clear. As for the main series article listing May 14 as the finale date, |last_aired= in the infobox is for the "first air date of the show's last episode on its original network". That doesn't necessarily have to be the finale. If the held-over episodes are subsequently aired by Fox then |last_aired= should be updated to reflect that. --AussieLegend (✉) 11:00, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Template documentation barely reaches guideline standards, so I believe the best case should be used for each individual case. In this case, I'd say stick with May 14, then add a hat note for May 28, as 3x24 was intended to be the last episode; extra produced episodes don't change this. -- Alex^TW 12:12, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

We got away from premiere and finale years ago when we decided to go with first aired and last aired in their place. If we were to do as you suggest then we should still be showing the original finale dates for Roseanne and Will & Grace but last_aired isn't tied to a series finale at all. We don't though. If there are episodes aired after a series finale has occurred and they are recognised as part of the series then we update the last_aired date accordingly. The template documentation was changed specifically because this is what we do. --AussieLegend (✉) 14:21, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

And yet, Season premiere, Season finale and Series finale still exist as articles, indicating that they are valid terms. I'm not saying that don't list May 28 at all. The Musketeers technically concluded on 12 June 2016, but the hatnotes gives details as to why a different date is listed. You can say that "we" don't list original series finale dates, but I could list dozens that do without any concern having been raised, indicating hiatuses. -- Alex^TW 14:36, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

When we change the MoS we don't delete articles. You know that. You also know that previously our series overview tables linked to those articles but {{series overview}}, a template that YOU wrote, doesn't link to them and I'm sure you know why. On the other hand, the infobox never linked to those articles. It simply lists when the series aired or, more accurately, when the first and last episode aired. While those episodes normally relate to the premiere and finale, they don't have to. Disney regularly displays first episodes as a "sneak peek" with the series premiere officially airing at a later date. However, in the discussions that we had we decided that we would list the date the episode first aired, which is why the infobox instructions reflect that. We also decided that the last episode was just that, the last episode that aired. These discussions started just before you started editing Wikipedia, somewhere around July 2014. That's why this edit was made. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:37, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I may have written the template, but I'm not the only one who's contributed to the documentation, nor do I own it. I believe we should take this to either WT:TV or WT:MOSTV to get some more up-to-date views that aren't four years old. -- Alex^TW 00:46, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Should they not be included in the season 3 table? I would imagine when Warner Bros releases on DVD and Blu Ray they'll be a part of the third season collection. Esuka323 (talk) 16:55, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

That the episodes might be included in the season 3 media is mentioned in the "Other produced episodes", as the episodes were produced as part of season 3. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:42, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

We did list Supergirl's first season on how it was released in home media, so it may be best to wait, just in case they're not actually released on the set. It's only a possibility at the moment. -- Alex^TW 00:46, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

FTR, it makes no sense not to include those episode under "season #3" – they were produced in the season #3 production batch, and will end up actually airing as part of "season 3" (it makes no difference what the original plans were – plans change in Hollywood, as they often do). Totally agree with Aussie that the "last aired" date for both the series, and for season #3, should be "May 28, 2018". --IJBall (contribs • talk) 01:38, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Just passing through to give my thoughts: If they were not intended to be aired as part of season 3 before the cancellation and are only being called bonus episodes, then they should be kept separate as they are now. There may have been an argument to combine them with the third season if this series had not previously moved episodes produced for one season to air as part of another. If Fox were to word it as they were extending season 3 then maybe, but from what I have seen they are referring to bonus episodes that are not considered part of any season. - adamstom97 (talk) 04:59, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

The sources indicate that they were produced as part of season 3 but it was decided to hold them over for a "potential" fourth season that obviously never eventuated. Once the series was cancelled they were pretty much stuck with the schedule that they had and couldn't slot them in before the finale. This isn't the first time that this has happened with a cancelled series. --AussieLegend (✉) 10:58, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes – many series have aired episodes after purported "season" or "series" finales. Off the top of my head are Earth 2 which aired two episodes "out of order" after its intended "finale", and Homefront which aired the equivalent of episode #1.2 months after the season #1 finale. But there are a bunch of others I'm not thinking of at the moment. In this case, the "bonus" episodes are clearly season #3 episodes in every way that matters. The details of their "bonus" nature/background can be dealt with using notes or in prose... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 12:58, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

To me I think they should be a part of the table because they were produced per the third season production but were later held for what they were hoping would be a fourth season. It could be for a number of reasons, maybe Fox just wanted to wrap up their Monday lineup on May 14 as The Resident concluded on the same day too. Maybe the show was canceled because the Fox network will be an independent entity after the Disney buyout and they have their own strategy going forward. But it doesn't change that both episodes were filmed along with the rest of the third season episodes. Esuka323 (talk) 14:07, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

More important than the fact that they were "produced" with the season #3 production batch is that they will ultimately air as part of "season #3". If FOX had held these episodes for months, and then aired them in, say, January 2019, then people would have a point about keeping out of the season #3 table. But by virtue of the fact that they are airing within two weeks of the originally planned "season #3 finale" makes them indisputably "season #3 episodes"... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:09, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Airdate is irrelevant to the nature of the episodes. They could have aired the very next day after the finale, and not been considered part of Season 3. What we need is a verifiable source per WP:V, that states that these episodes are most definitely part of Season 3. The press release is out, that just calls it a "two-hour bonus episode". -- Alex^TW 01:54, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

How often are episodes for one season deliberately produced for another season? These episodes were produced with the rest of the season 3 episodes so they were clearly originally intended to be aired as part of season 3. However, a decision was made to hold them over for a "possible" season 4. That never eventuated so now they're just being tacked back onto season 3 but being called "bonus episodes" because the s3 finale has aired. --AussieLegend (✉) 06:42, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Production is not the sole determiner of whether specific episodes are in a season. 4 episodes of Season 2 were produced with Season 2, but were aired in Season 3, and hence they are listed with Season 3. Now, 2 episodes of Season 3 were produced with Season 3, but are to be aired as a joined bonus episode, and hence they should be listed as a joined bonus episode. As I stated before, is there a reliable source stating that they are officially part of the third season? It was confirmed in January that the season would consist of 24 rather than 26 episodes, so it's been known for a while that two episodes were to be aired separate from Season 3. -- Alex^TW 09:19, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

WHich episodes produced in season 2 were aired in season 3? --AussieLegend (✉) 10:44, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Sources: [1] [2] Episodes: Special:Permalink/787023569#Season 3. These episodes were then aired as 3x03, 3x06, 3x07 and 3x11. -- Alex^TW 15:03, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Correct – when they are aired is actually the primary factor in determining "season", at least in terms of American television. (So your earlier claim that "Airdate is irrelevant to the nature of the episodes." is in fact false...) And based on when these "bonus" episodes are airing, they are "bonus" episodes to season #3 (i.e. as part of the 2017–18 U.S. TV season), and should be listed there. Again, the details about what was "intended", versus what actually transpired, can be handled in notes, or in prose. But these should be listed under season #3, for all of the reasons already outlined. Keeping them out at this point is simply pedantic. Also, here's at least one secondary source that that refers to these episodes as "Season 3 episodes". --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:26, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Can you provide a reliable source where either Fox or the showrunners themselves state they are still part of Season 3? It's much more preferable than a secondary source giving their own opinion on it. Especially when this one refers to the episodes as "Unaired Season 3 Episodes" (full quote), i.e. in their original status, not their new bonus status, and the body of the article doesn't refer to them as remaining Season 3 episodes. -- Alex^TW 04:31, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

In fact, WP:SECONDARY are generally preferred over WP:PRIMARY on Wikipedia – yes, there are some exceptions, but there's no reason to think that this is one of them. Besides, what are they a "bonus" to?! – They were produced as part of season #3, and they are airing as part of the 2017–18 TV season, which for Lucifer covers "season #3". Again, keeping them out of the season #3 table at this point is just pedantic, and does not serve our readership. All of the details about the background on these episodes can be explained, in prose – but these are "bonus season 3 episodes". Period. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:39, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Your personal opinion of WP:V is noted. Just following policy. In this case, PRIMARY would supersede SECONDARY, as it's a series owned by Fox and run by the showrunners, so if they say it's Season 3 or it's not, then it's Season 3 or it's not. The episodes are bonus to the series; stating that they are a part of a specific season without a source is textbook WP:OR. -- Alex^TW 04:47, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

More (stronger) evidence for inclusion under season 3: Zap2It lists these episodes as "Season 3, Episode 25" (which is interesting, as that would make them a single "double-length episode"): [3] This is significant because TV schedule listing services like this generally get their info directly from the networks... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:18, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Even stronger is the program's official website which lists the "bonus episodes" as "S3 E25 Boo Normal" and "S3 E26 Once Upon a Time". It clearly identifies these episodes as being part of season 3. --AussieLegend (✉) 16:33, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Now that we have evidence that these episodes are actually part of season 3, is there any reason why they shouldn't be included in the season 3 table? --AussieLegend (✉) 07:26, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Not sure if the other editor who stated that SECONDARY is "generally preferred over" PRIMARY wants to comment, but if they're merged back into Season 3, then the information included with the table in the current section needs to be moved - where to? And I would strongly recommend using something like {{Episode table/part}} after the finale and before the bonus episodes. Do we also merge them, or keep them separate? -- Alex^TW 12:15, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Fox doesn't list them as bonus episodes, just as two episodes airing after the season finale, so I don't think we need to part the season. I suggest a note in the episode 23 summary that states that Fox considers this to be the season finale. The content in the bonus episodes section could be relocated to the beginning of season 3 and reworded slightly. --AussieLegend (✉) 13:06, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

"Two-Hour Bonus Episode" per Fox's press release. Having the prose content right before the episode table is optimum location in my opinion, it allows editors to read the uniqueness of the situation then go right to the episodes. -- Alex^TW 13:20, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

OK, so we now have multiple sources, both primary and secondary, that refer to these episodes as "season 3" episodes. We now also have multiple editors requesting that they be put in the season 3 table, and you seem to be the lone remaining hold out. Can we please just move this along, move them back into the season #3 table, and then figure out the best way to make clear the "bonus" nature of the episodes, and that S03E24 is, in fact, the "season finale", despite two "bonus" episodes airing two weeks later? Hmmmm?... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:07, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes. I'm allowed my own opinion. I'm not saying it's not allowed to be done, I'm proposing the best way to merge it back in. Is that alright with you? The best way to do it is to have a clear plan on what to do, then implement it. Aussie's taught me that lesson himself when implementing changes before. -- Alex^TW 16:31, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

OK, fair enough. As I said before, I think (prob. inline) notes are the best suggestion, likely along with added prose. In this situation, I suggest putting the prose about this below the table, as that puts it closest to the episodes in question... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:36, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Thinking about it a bit more, adding a "part separator" titled "Bonus episodes" after the series finale, followed by the two extra episodes might be a good idea. People seeing that episode 23 was the series finale are bound to be confused in the future. (it happens - far too often) The text explaining what happened can still be placed at the beginning of the season 3 section, with links to the episodes themselves where necessary. Putting text after the episodes is not the best option. We're trying to explain what happened with the season and we should be doing that BEFORE readers get to the relevant part, just like we do everywhere else and what we're doing now with the extra section. Explanation first then episode table. --AussieLegend (✉) 16:44, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

I do not object to a "Bonus episodes" table "separator"... Alex? P.S. If we put the text at the top of the table, then I definitely advocate (inline?) note use, on top of that. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:49, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

We should do what we can to future-proof this. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:10, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

With the revival news, I've gone ahead and made some format changes, including the "Bonus episodes" header, but I moved the explaining text to an inline note, so that it could be included in the overview table and the parent article, and not need to be duplicated as prose and an inline note. Is that alright? Cheers. -- Alex^TW 04:26, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

The new iteration looks fine to me – I just agree that they should be included with the season #3 table. Now that they are (with a note), it should be good to go. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 05:17, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Split into separate season articles

Is that worthy of doing? Someone in SoCal Area (talk) 22:38, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Someone in SoCal Area, yes it needs to be done. Please place a request here. Kailash29792 (talk) 06:43, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Request made. But I noticed there are articles for seasons 1 thru 5 as redirects to this main article, Lucifer (TV series) article. Someone in SoCal Area (talk) 16:31, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Added a split tag for discussion here. Someone in SoCal Area (talk) 21:01, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Are there drafts for the season articles, to prove that there's enough for a split? -- /Alex/₂₁ 07:09, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

^ This. It's not enough to have plot summaries – season articles also need individual 'Production' and 'Reception' sections. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:24, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Of course I am aware that you need more than just episode summaries to make each season an article. Rotten tomatoes already has an aggregate for each season plus other, more specific reviews and I've seen plenty of articles about production that should cover it. I will slap together drafts starting with S1 and will give a link here once it's looking fairly decent(will try to get it done by end of week-but remember there is no deadline :). I do have a draft for an episode under review just waiting to see if it is accepted or rejected to see what to do with that going forward. Note: I editing WP back in the old-old days when building content was more important so I'm still getting used to how things are more stringent now(which is a good thing) so patience is appreciated, AGF and all. Someone in SoCal Area (talk) 17:40, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Word count on plot summaries.

My bad about thinking it was 400 words or less. Misread MOS:TVPLOT which said 400 was the limit for an episode article and 200 for a list. I will fix that. I think others may be a little over 200 that are not tagged as well. I may go through that. Also, yes I need to pare down 5.4 but it is an episode that might deserve its own article: It Never Ends Well for the Chicken Someone in SoCal Area (talk) 20:55, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

I tried starting the Chicken episode but it's not ready so it's in draft space for the time being. It still needs more sourcing and filling out but I set up a framework at least if anyone wants to help work on it. Someone in SoCal Area (talk) 22:58, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

I streamlined the plot summary of season 5, episode 15. There's a lot going on in that episode, so it wasn't easy. I'll leave it to someone else to decide whether the "summary is too long and detailed" tag should be removed. DJKuulA (talk) 00:26, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Lucifer

Lucifer 121.75.250.105 (talk) 11:19, 1 December 2021 (UTC)