Talk:List of European literatures

A section for European literature in the Turkic languages?

This article was brought to my attention on another talk page and has made me wonder if it should include a section for European literature in the Turkic languages (i.e. Azerbaijani and Turkish). I feel that if we want to list the literature of all European nationalities then we ought to include Azerbaijani and Turkish as well. --Kutsuit (talk) 17:05, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I knew it - to all editors, please see: European cuisine.

This article refers to European Literature as a synonym for Western literature: "Western literature refers to the literature written in the context of Western culture in the languages of Europe, including the ones belonging to the Indo-European language family as well as several geographically or historically related languages such as Basque, Hungarian, and so forth. Western literature is considered one of the defining elements of Western civilization."

Encyclopædia Britannica: "Western literature, history of literatures in the languages of the Indo-European family, along with a small number of other languages whose cultures became closely associated with the West, from ancient times to the present.

Diverse as they are, European literatures, like European languages, are parts of a common heritage. Greek, Latin, Germanic, Baltic and Slavic, Celtic, and Romance languages are all members of the Indo-European family. (Finnish and Hungarian and Semitic languages of the eastern Mediterranean, such as Hebrew, are not Indo-European. Literatures in these languages are, however, closely associated with major Western literatures and are often included among them.) The common literary heritage is essentially that originating in ancient Greece and Rome. It was preserved, transformed, and spread by Christianity and thus transmitted to the vernacular languages of the European Continent, the Western Hemisphere, and other regions that were settled by Europeans. To the present day, this body of writing displays a unity in its main features that sets it apart from the literatures of the rest of the world. Such common characteristics are considered here." here --IIIraute (talk) 18:14, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Please stop harassing me, IIIraute. You knew what? You actually brought this article to my attention and my intention was to ask if I should include Azerbaijani and Turkish literature in this article. Could you please stop harassing me? I feel like you're trying to discourage me from contributing to Wikipedia.

There's already an article for Western literature on Wikipedia, which you could find here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_literature. Is Abkhaz and Russian literature considered Western? I hardly think so.

Also, your edit summary is rather rude. I'm not trying to push anything. I'm approaching these articles with a geographic mindset, much like most other Europe-related articles that are intended to list or outline certain things, such as this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_in_Europe. You know very well that you cant speculate about my intentions. Quite frankly I feel offended by your remarks. There's a good reason why I started this discussion. --Kutsuit (talk) 19:23, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Please stop your personal discussions, focus on article content, and support your argument with reliable secondary/tertiary sources.

Martin Travers, European Literature from Romanticism to Postmodernism, Bloomsbury Publishing, 2006 here

Goethe-Institut: "European Literature Goes to Turkey/Turkish Literature Goes to Europe" here --IIIraute (talk) 20:26, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

IIIraute, I'm losing my patience with you. If you continue to personally attack me, speculate false things about me or harass me by following me to yet another Wikipedia page, I'll report your behavior to the administrators. I will focus strictly on the content when you learn to restrain yourself from continuing your personal attacks, false speculations and harassment -- otherwise it is only fair on my part to highlight your improper conduct. --Kutsuit (talk) 21:09, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

• A separate article on Western literature already exists. This article is meant to outline the literature of all European nationalities. If it was only meant for Western countries, then I propose we remove Abkhaz, Russian and Ukrainian literature from the article, as these countries are not part of the West. I don't think I should provide sources to include Azerbaijani or Turkish literature in this situation. Given that almost all European nationalities were listed in this article, it's clear that the article was meant to outline the literature of Europe as a whole, irrespective of whether or not a certain European country is deemed Western. Europe includes Azerbaijan and Turkey, and the inclusion of these countries in this article will simply comply with the same standards that were set in other Europe-related articles and templates. --Kutsuit (talk) 21:09, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Encyclopædia Britannica: "Diverse as they are, European literatures ... are parts of a common heritage. Greek, Latin, Germanic, Baltic and Slavic, Celtic, and Romance languages are all members of the Indo-European family." here --IIIraute (talk) 21:20, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

• There are two problems with that sentence. First, it doesn't define what Slavic language belongs to Western literature. Czech literature can be considered Western. Russian and Ukrainian literature, on the other hand, simply aren't Western as neither countries are part of the Western World for that matter. The second problem is that it doesn't change the fact that Wikipedia already has an article for Western literature, which this article isn't. This article is for the literature of Europe as a whole, regardless of whether a European country is Western or non-Western, and that's precisely why Abkhaz, Russian and Ukrainian literature can be found here, while American and Canadian literature couldn't. In other words, this article isn't meant to outline the literature of Western countries. It's meant to outline the literature of European countries, instead.
  Furthermore, Turkish literature could be considered Western since Turkey has underwent cultural Westernization since the 17th century Ottoman era. This can be backed with reliable sources. Having said that, it's completely irrelevant to the whole point of the article, as this article is not to be confused with the article on Western literature -- which already exists. Instead, this article is for the literature of Europe, and Europe includes Azerbaijan and Turkey.
  Therefore, there has to be another reason to oppose the inclusion of Azerbaijani and Turkish literature to this article. --Kutsuit (talk) 12:57, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

They are not the same articles - "Western literature" does include American, Australian, and Canadian literature - "European literature", does not. Also, the Encyclopædia Britannica sentence, clearly states: "Diverse as they are, European literatures ... are parts of a common heritage. Greek, Latin, Germanic, Baltic and Slavic, Celtic, and Romance languages are all members of the Indo-European family." Of course, Russian and Ukrainian literature belong to "European literature" - and of course they are part of the Western world, i.e. Western culture (Christian culture). Please see Eastern World, i.e. Eastern culture. Goethe-Institut: "European Literature Goes to Turkey/Turkish Literature Goes to Europe" here --IIIraute (talk) 14:34, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Precisely my point. The Western literature article was made for Western literature. This article, however, was made to include the literature of all European countries -- Western and non-Western alike. The sentence you picked from Encyclopedia Britannica does not mention Russian literature as part of Western literature. It only describes the linguistic connection between the various subgroups of the Indo-European language family. Furthermore, Western culture does not equal Christian culture. That is original research on your part. Orthodox Russia was never considered part of the West. Are there any reliable sources that define Russia as a Western country or Russian literature as Western literature? There are none that I've come across.
Anyway, I'd like to know if there are any objections to the inclusion of Azerbaijani and Turkish literature to this specific article, which, as I understand, is meant to outline the literature of Europe as a whole, including Azerbaijan and Turkey, as these countries are considered European too. --Kutsuit (talk) 15:10, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

No, it was not - as one can clearly see from the lead, i.e. the article itself. That's the reason why the countries you want to add are missing. "Western literature" does include American, Australian, and Canadian literature - "European literature", does not. Please see: Martin Travers, European Literature from Romanticism to Postmodernism, Bloomsbury Publishing, 2006 here

"The classic Russian fiction and drama have long ago been adopted by the Western world and made part of the Western canon.", Russian Literature and Culture at Stanford, Stanford University here

On "my original research", please see: Thomas Woods, How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, Regnery Publishing, 2012 here --IIIraute (talk) 15:36, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Here you go, my dear: http://books.google.com.kw/books?id=eKNK1YwHcQ4C&pg=PA628&dq=westernization+of+turkish+literature&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6uZXU_HsDMnM0AXVrYHoBw&safe=on&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=westernization%20of%20turkish%20literature&f=false.
Also, Azerbaijan and Turkey can be considered as European countries too, so why shouldn't they be in the article? Some elements of Russian literature may have been adopted by the West but it does not mean that Russian literature is Western. Russia is not considered Western, my dear. --Nadia (Kutsuit) (talk) 16:23, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Encyclopædia Britannica: "Diverse as they are, European literatures, like European languages, are parts of a common heritage. Greek, Latin, Germanic, Baltic and Slavic, Celtic, and Romance languages are all members of the Indo-European family. (Finnish and Hungarian and Semitic languages of the eastern Mediterranean, such as Hebrew, are not Indo-European. Literatures in these languages are, however, closely associated with major Western literatures and are often included among them.) The common literary heritage is essentially that originating in ancient Greece and Rome. It was preserved, transformed, and spread by Christianity and thus transmitted to the vernacular languages of the European Continent, the Western Hemisphere, and other regions that were settled by Europeans. To the present day, this body of writing displays a unity in its main features that sets it apart from the literatures of the rest of the world. Such common characteristics are considered here." --IIIraute (talk) 16:45, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

And since Turkish literature has been Westernized over the course of hundreds of years, not to mention Turkey is considered to be a European country after all, then there are at least two good reasons to include Turkish literature in this article. --Nadia (Kutsuit) (talk) 16:56, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Goethe-Institut: "European Literature Goes to Turkey/Turkish Literature Goes to Europe ... the exchange of literature between Europe and Turkey" here --IIIraute (talk) 17:12, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

That article is completely irrelevant as it's non-academic and describes a collaborative effort between the European Union and Turkey to promote cultural exchange. It's irrelevant. Europe in this case is the European Union. Now going back to the point, I have shown you an academic source highlighting the Westernization of Turkish literature. It's also an undeniable fact that Turkey is one of the countries of Europe, as you can see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_in_Europe. Therefore, as I said previously, there are two good reasons to include Turkish literature to this article. --Nadia (Kutsuit) (talk) 17:21, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Philip Gaskell, Landmarks in European Literature, Edinburgh University Press, 1999, preface:

"This book introduces thirty-two key works of European literature in translation to ordinary readers. Ranging from Dante's Divine Comedy to Brecht's Threepenny Opera, Philip Gaskell takes a canon of recognised literary classics and introduces each work, setting it in the literary and historical contexts of its times. The selection of works cover the main genres of poetry, prose and drama, and the other authors included are Petrarch, Villon, Ronsard, Montaigne, Cervantes, Moliere, Voltaire, Rousseau, Goethe, Schiller, Pushkin, Lermontov, Balzac, Flaubert, Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Turgenev, Tolstoy, Dostoievsky, Ibsen, Strindberg, Hamsun, Chekhov, Gorky, Zola, Fontane, Proust, Mann, Kafka, and Pirandello." --IIIraute (talk) 22:43, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Article name change

I changed the name of this article from "European literature" to "List of European literatures" in order to include the literatures of all countries that are either wholly or partially in Europe. Wikipedia already has an article on European literature as understood, by some, to mean "Western literature", which can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_literature. --Nadia (Kutsuit) (talk) 13:15, 21 May 2014 (UTC)