Talk:Lionel Messi/Archive 20

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 December 2022 (2)

Widely regarded as the greatest player of all time. 103.98.36.28 (talk) 16:37, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: this is already in the article. casualdejekyll 18:44, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

But it's not. The article says "one of the greatest" which seems outdated looking at the sources. EDIT: Seems like it has been changed, sorry. 78.45.227.119 (talk) 11:54, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

GOAT

If we put Messi as "the greatest of all time" then it doesn't make much sense to put many others as "one of the greatest". Either we remove that for every others or we revert to "one of the greatest" for Messi CasperEman (talk) 16:03, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

But that's not true at all. For example, each of the finalists of the Ballon d'Or is (regarded as) one the best players in the world. Yet, the winner is (regarded as) the best player in the world. There's no contradiction here. 78.45.227.119 (talk) 16:16, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

See my previous reply to you. Pele was crowned "the greatest" by FIFA and a lot of sources also made him the greatest and King of Football for years. Yet his article stood "one of the greatest" for years. Doesn't make sense to show instant favoritism to Messi. The fact that we are still debating on this means proper consensus is not reached CasperEman (talk) 16:21, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

I thnk Wikipedia should follow sources rather than us, random people on Wiki - that would be original research. 78.45.227.119 (talk) 16:24, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Then also edit Pele as "the greatest" then if thag's what you want to say CasperEman (talk) 16:25, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I didn't edit anything. If someone changed the Messi article, it wasn't me. 78.45.227.119 (talk) 16:31, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

that change was already reverted btw --FMSky (talk) 16:26, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Possible GOAT consensus?

Seeing as so many of today's newspapers [1], opinion pieces [2] [3] [4] are hailing him as the greatest, the sentence "Widely regarded as the greatest player of all time" is much more fitting than "Widely regarded as one of the greatest players of all time" Alessiofut (talk) 14:20, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

There will never be a consensus on someone being classed as the greatest of all time as there are far too many differing opinions. One of is more than adequate and the reader can make up their own minds. Kosack (talk) 14:43, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting an absolute description. I believe the term "regarded" covers that aspect of subjectivity. Still, the following sentence is true at the moment: Widely regarded as the greatest player of all time Alessiofut (talk) 16:45, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

What about "often regarded as..."? 78.45.227.119 (talk) 22:38, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

I don't think you can disregard it that simply. The number of people (mainly fellow footballers) claiming he's the greatest ever is huge (e.g. https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/lionel-messi-goat-greatest-all-time-history-ronaldo-rooney-modric-wenger-guardiola/) and it should be taken into account. It's not necessary to claim he's the greatest ever period but saying he's regarded just "one of" the greatest clearly isn't enough. 78.45.227.119 (talk) 11:51, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Very subjective and touchy issue. I vote to reverts to "one of the". It doesn't make sense to put other players as "one of the" but Messi as "the". Doesn't seem to align logically CasperEman (talk) 15:56, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

If the sources support the claim that he's regarded as the greatest, then there's nothing ilogical about putting it in the article. You can have like 10 greatest players ever, each one of them being "one of the greatest". At the same time you can have a player that's among those 10 greatest and is actually the greatest of them all. We now have a lot, A LOT, of sources claiming him to be the greatest ever. No explanation was given why it should be ignored. 78.45.227.119 (talk) 16:08, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Pele was put as "one of the greatest" for years in Wikipedia despite a lot, A LOT of sources made him King of Football and FIFA outright called him "the greatest". Subjective remains subjective. I'm fine with something to the line of "one of the greatest, with some claiming to be the greatest" — Preceding unsigned comment added by CasperEman (talk • contribs) 16:13, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

If the sources agreed he was the greatest, Wiki should have put it there, but I haven't checked the old sources for that. The subjective part is in the word "regarded" but we should otherwise follow the sources. A huge amount of them claim something like "the debate is over". Previously I suggested "often regarded as", although it really does seem like he's now "widely" regarded as the greatest. 78.45.227.119 (talk) 16:21, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Most of the "debate" were with Ronaldo, who trailed behind now, not with Pele. My point still stands, lots of sources for Messi as "the greatest" but as equally many sources for Pele. We put everything on and we still put him as "one of the greatest". Also a few new sources does not truly represent the opinions of a "wide audience" CasperEman (talk) 16:24, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

It's not a few new sources, there are dozens of them, media, former players etc. And they talk about who's the "greatest ever", not limiting it to the question whether Messi is better than Ronaldo. 78.45.227.119 (talk) 16:28, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Then again, my point with Pele still stands. Many papers for decades made him "the greatest" alongside with FIFA. Doesn't make sense to make Messi the sole "the greatest" when sources also crowns Pele CasperEman (talk) 16:32, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

If the old sources crowned Pele, then the Wiki should have said so. I have no problem with that. I wouldn't be against updating the Pele article to say that he was regarded as the greatest ever player before Messi for example. My point is, Wiki shouldn't decide who is or isn the greatest. It should follow the sources. And new sources widely say Messi's the greatest ever. If the sources say so, Wiki should say so. 78.45.227.119 (talk) 16:37, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

We have not and we did not. There's no "the greatest before Messi", unless the new sources retract their statements about Pele and put Messi ahead. Anyways, we are just getting pedantic over here. This is Wikipedia, not a fanclub. CasperEman (talk) 16:40, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Also someone already edited it anyway without proper consensus then begs not to change without consensus CasperEman (talk) 15:57, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

pele and maradona are more often labelled the goat, so obviously no, it should not be changed --FMSky (talk) 16:17, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

I do not have the proper privileges to edit, please do it if you wish CasperEman (talk) 16:26, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

This really doesn't seem to be the case anymore. You would hardly find any new source claiming Maradona is the greatest. 78.45.227.119 (talk) 16:30, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Accuracy of some numbers

Hi,

Just took a look at some of the records attributed to Messi, but i'm not sure if they are quite accurate. Under the list of career achievements:

1)Most goals scored in a domestic league in a single season: 50 in 2011–12

Guinness book of records cite 60 and 66 by Dixie Dean and James Smith

Most goals scored in a football League Season - individual | Guinness World Records

2)Most goals in a calendar year (including club friendlies): 96 in 2012

Pele has 127 in a calendar year (including friendlies) 1959-confirmed by FIFA

Both queried entries have no citations/links. They need clarifying.

3) Most assists provided at the FIFA World Cup: 8 (1 in 2006, 1 in 2010, 1 in 2014, 2 in 2018, 3 in 2022)[211]

The record, however, is 10. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_records_and_statistics#Most_assists

Looking at official sources, FIFA mentions 6 assists for Pele in 1970 overall, and 1 in the 1958 cup final v Sweden. So, they've touched upon 7 of Pele's.

https://web.archive.org/web/20201023121730/https://www.fifa.com/news/happy-80th-birthday-to-the-king

The Guinness book of Records touches upon his assist in his only first-round-match appearance in 1958 and later against Mexico in 1962. So, even without delving deeper into his other matches/assists, that's already a combined 9, beating the supposed top number of 8

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/records/hall-of-fame/pele-most-wins-of-the-fifa-world-cup-by-a-player

I think the confusion re Messi comes from citing sources that only record from 1966 onwards.

4)Most assists provided in a domestic league in a single season: 21 in 2019–20[r]

No doubt he has the La Ligua record, but outside of La Ligua, there are others with a higher number of domestic assists. For instance, Alan Hinton provided more assists in the NASL in 1978 https://www.nytimes.com/1978/08/02/archives/nasls-last-week-5-playoff-spots-to-fill-hinton-breaks-assists.html

Unless there are further clarifications, i'm inclined to remove the above 4 entries from Messi's list of world records

Koppite1 (talk) 18:17, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 December 2022

He is widely regarded as the greatest of all time. Not one of the greatest. 39.34.213.220 (talk) 11:00, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: WP:NPOV. Colonestarrice (talk) 13:59, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 December 2022

86.104.88.201 (talk) 13:21, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Sarrail (talk) 13:48, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Finalissima

I think they should also add Finallisima in the first description since it is a legit international trophy. 141.136.174.3 (talk) 17:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Change DP

Change the DP with a photo of Messi holding the world cup trophy Tjkafi (talk) 05:35, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

@Tjkafi, Not done for now - Please find a photo that is freely licensed first (or find an existing photo on Commons). Do not simply upload a photo you found on the internet (such as a news publication) as that would be a copyright violation. Considering you commented on this thread, I'm assuming you read the reply before you had commented. --Harobouri • 🎢 • 🏗️ (he/him • WP:APARKS) 19:23, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 December 2022 (2)

In the part where his individual accolades are listed (ie. Ballon D'Or wins, etc.) you should include a reference that he is the only player with 2 FIFA World Cup ballon d'ors (or best player award). Gorecb137 (talk) 18:46, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lemonaka (talk) 10:59, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 December 2022

For the honours section, I was thinking it'd be nice if we could have a number in parenthesis after the years designating the number of times he's won that specific title.

For example: La Liga: 2004–05, 2005–06, 2008–09, 2009–10, 2010–11, 2012–13, 2014–15, 2015–16, 2017–18, 2018–19 (10) Copa del Rey: 2008–09, 2011–12, 2014–15, 2015–16, 2016–17, 2017–18, 2020–21 (7) etc Jaimehameha (talk) 22:44, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

 Done casualdejekyll 01:12, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Navboxes error

Hi all, I've been trying to fix the navbox errors at the bottom of the article but i can't for some reason. A few of the templates have been shoved in the awards category and don't appear in full. The authority control and the notable people from Rosario template are not appearing outside of the navbox, as well as some award templates.

If someone could have a look for me that would be great thanks. Idiosincrático (talk) 02:02, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

"About" section

"Widely regarded as one of the greatest players of all time" and "holds record for most number of ballon d'or(7)" does not appear in his google profile under the about section when we search Messi's name on google. Currently, it's only : Lionel Andrés Messi, also known as Leo Messi, is an Argentine professional footballer who plays as a forward for Ligue 1 club Paris Saint-Germain and captains the Argentina national team.

Is there a way to make it appear without having to click into his wikipedia profile to see the full version? --Goldenstarxxx (talk) 17:36, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

That's something you're going to have to take up with Google, I think. It's more to do with the way they capture their bio data, not the way this page is written. – PeeJay 18:47, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

@PeeJay: BTW if Ballon d Or is not important enough to be marked at the lead by googl then what do you think to remove all words "Ballon d Or" from "titles"? (I mean this discussion). I think it is enough if article mention this facts, but it is not neccesary to mark winning ballon d or at every posible title of the section. It is even mentioned in the lead (not very neccesary as we could say plenty other records of Messi, fr examle that he is the only playr who was two times player of the tournament at World Cup) but it is not necessary to metin it at every title. (I reently made one shorter tite and If there will be no opposition in next two weeks then I will remove Ballon d Ors from the titles as @GiantSnowman: suggsted). Dawid2009 (talk) 20:23, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, but what does the Google bio have to do with Wikipedia? GiantSnowman 20:25, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

That’s not what I said at all. Please do not do that. – PeeJay 23:53, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

PICTURE

CHANGE THE PICTURE TO HIM WITH THE TROPHY. PERMANENTLY! 82.17.109.148 (talk) 20:27, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

1, Please don’t shout. 2, Why? Sarrail (talk) 21:41, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Agree Joseph1891 (talk) 13:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Must meet the free image criteria first. We cannot simply use images from news reports as they belong to the group of people who work on these articles and are therefore copyrighted. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 18:53, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Definitely. I wrote the same Tjkafi (talk) 05:36, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

How about thi one: https://hi.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AF%E0%A5%8B%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%B2_%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%80#/media/%E0%A4%9A%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0:Lionel_Messi_con_la_Copa_del_Mundo_2022.png for now? Dawid2009 (talk) 13:34, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

No, I don't think so. Even if the artist has released it into the public domain, it's not appropriate to use an illustration in place of a photograph in the infobox. – PeeJay 13:41, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 December 2022

Change "Widely regarded as one of the greatest players of all time" to "Widely regarded as the greatest player of all time", because he is widely regarded this way, after his recent Fifa World Cup success. 176.33.108.76 (talk) 15:09, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

see discussion above --FMSky (talk) 15:11, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Also see Talk:Lionel Messi#Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 December 2022. Sarrail (talk) 15:13, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 January 2023

PLEASE WRITE WIDELY REGARDED AS THE GREATEST PLAYER OF HIS GENERATION AND THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME, INSTEAD OF WRITING ONE OF THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME. AT LEAST HE HAS NOW PROVEN THAT HE IS THE BEST OF THIS GENERATION, IF NOT OF ALL TIME. UpBeatWiki (talk) 11:17, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. See discussions elsewhere on this talk page. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 02:06, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Trophy Cabinets

How many Trophies did he win in his all time career so far? Team and solo? Imadethis123 (talk) 10:23, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

2022 Qatar World Cup glory

On 22 Nov, Messi endured a tough loss in their opening2022 FIFA World Cup game against Saudi Arabia. Messi had scored a penalty earlier that game but goals from Al-Hilal stars Salem Al-Dawsari and Saleh Al-Shehri sealed Saudi Arabia with a win. 4 days later on the 26th, Messi led Argentina to a comfortable second half masterclass with a goal and an assist to Enzo Fernández who finished superbly. In their last group stage game on the 30th, Messi struggled to duplicate his previous form against Poland and missed a penalty which was saved Wojciech Szczęsny. On his 1000th senior career appearance, he broke the record for the most-capped male South American (COMMEBOL member), surpassing the record set by Ecuador's Iván Hurtado, combined with other related records.

In this game, he led an uneasy Argentina national football team to an anxious ending with a win thanks in large part to a simple, trademark Messi goal and a untimely mistake from Australian goalkeeper Mathew Ryan, gifting a simple goal for Manchester City's Julián Álvarez (footballer). Messi then further advanced to the semi finals against a tough Netherlands national football team. In the 35th minute, Messi expertly crafted a through ball to Nahuel Molina who toepoked it in. In the 73rd minute of the game, Messi masterfully scored a penalty. However, two late goals from Dutch striker Wout Weghorst ensured the Dutch wouldn't back down from a fight. Two saves from Argentinian goalkeeper Emiliano Martínez ensured passage into the semi finals of the 2022 FIFA World Cup. On the 9th December in the semi-finals, Messi yet again broke the history books by securing a record-equalling 25th World Cup finals appearance, drawing level with Germany's Lothar Matthäus and scoring the opening goal with a penalty while also assisting with a truly remarkable dribble, setting up Julián Álvarez (footballer) for his 4th World Cup goal. On the 18th December, Messi led Argentina against the World Champions France national football team. An enthralling game, Messi scored a brace including another penalty while his Paris Saint-Germain F.C. teammate, Kylian Mbappé scored a hat trick. Messi's Argentina defeated France on penalties with a winning penalty from Gonzalo Montiel to produce Messi's crowning moment. This World Cup Final was described by Jamie Carragher as The best football match I've EVER seen.[5]https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11551637/Jamie-Carragher-declares-Argentina-3-3-France-one-best-games-time.html Editor2134.2 (talk) 20:48, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

See WP:WORDS. This language overly relies on emotion and is inappropriate. Mazedriver (talk) 00:43, 5 January 2023 (UTC)