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Did you know nomination

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 22:41, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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Converted from a redirect by Nexus000 (talk). Nominated by Feminist (talk) at 16:25, 6 April 2021 (UTC).[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough

Policy compliance:

  • Adequate sourcing: No - Referencing is generally good and from independent and reliable sources. While checking the hook citation, I noticed the rest of the paragraph (In 2009, Tarawa and her family...) was not supported by the citation given. - checkY fixed.
  • Neutral: Yes
  • Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing: No - Checked with Earwig's Copyvio Detector, which returned a possible violation in relation to several lengthy quotes in the article. Per WP:QUOTE, overuse of quotes, especially long ones, is discouraged and may be better paraphrased in prose. - checkY fixed.
  • Other problems: No - A merge request is currently under discussion; the DYK cannot proceed until this is closed. - checkY merge request closed.

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: Yes
  • Interesting: No - The hook doesn't feel "hooky" enough to me. Gloriavale isn't unique in telling its members they will go to hell if they leave.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Article length and age are fine, and reliable sources are used. However, there is a possible copyvio issue, and the hook doen't feel "hooky". This is my first solo QPQ, so second opinions and feedback are welcome. Lcmortensen (mailbox) 10:44, 9 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • The referencing issue is minor and easily fixed. My local library has a copy, but its onb loan, so I can't fix it myself. The original hook is much more "hooky" compared with the alternate hook, and I may have been a little bit harsh in my critique, so with the original hook. Lcmortensen (mailbox) 08:31, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for the review. I realize this is a minor issue, but shouldn't this be a green tick? The RNZ source cited is online and non-paywalled, and states Lilia Tarawa fled Gloriavale after years of believing that to do so would mean she would go to hell. It fully supports the original hook. feminist (talk) 16:53, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge of Gloriavale Christian Community into Lilia Tarawa

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result of this discussion was to unanimously oppose the merge

I propose to merge Gloriavale Christian Community into Lilia Tarawa. Secondary news coverage of this group only happened after Tarawa's TED talk: most of the material in the "controversies" section is related to her talk. The demographic information is already beginning to be incorporated into the Haupiri article. Joofjoof (talk) 07:04, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment I disagree with the claim most of the material in controversies is related to her talk, only one paragraph is about her talk. 2 paragraphs in cult allegations, the section on their COVID-19 response, workplace safety, and a lawsuit are all well-covered events by themselves, not based on the talk.
  • There have always been secondary sources on Gloriavale Christian Community, plenty before the talk. This article was created on 1 March 2007, the article was read 660,997 times since 2015, 188,020 times between 2015 and 16 November 2017 (the day before the talk), a TVNZ 2 3 part documentary in 2016, and a book published in 2009 about the community. I'm not sure where you are from, but as a New Zealander, anecdotally Gloriavale has always been a cultural icon and a source of public interest. The community is isolated but opens itself to the public annually for concert, so it has been a mystery and a source of speculation for New Zealanders. Nexus000 (talk) 07:31, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I had a think about the pros and cons of both, but I oppose. Tarawa would be notable for WP:GNG on her own even if Gloriavale didn't have a page and the information on her is more detailed and comprehensive than what a section on another article would have. Nexus000 (talk) 07:45, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd encourage you to look at this. This search displays the online articles available related to Gloriavale from 1969 (the community's foundation) to 11 December 2015 (when that edition of Gloriavale's Wikipedia article you linked was edited). The Wikipedia article you linked may not have had many sources, but plenty of sources on Gloriavale did exist before the TEDx Talk. I believe Lilia Tarawa and Gloriavale Christian Community both pass WP:GNG on their own and are seperate to each other, so we don't need to merge them. Nexus000 (talk) 10:54, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, the community is separate from one of its former members, and is the subject of much media coverage since at least the 1990s. The statistical data for Gloriavale from the most recent census (2018) is recorded in the Gloriavale article, and the more detailed statistics for the wider area of Lake Brunner are covered at Moana, New Zealand.-gadfium 08:36, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • To clarify, Gloriavale and Moana are settlements within the Lake Brunner statistical area. The statistics in the Gloriavale article are only for the Gloriavale settlement, while the statistics at Moana are for the entire Lake Breunner statisical area.Lcmortensen (mailbox) 08:10, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Is this merge proposal a joke? The claim that "secondary news coverage of this group only happened after Tarawa's TED talk" is more bizarre than the Cooperites themselves. Nurg (talk) 09:12, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment While the article from 2015 you linked only had 2 sources, plenty of sources on the community did exist and it would have passed WP:GNG. Here is the related Google search before 11 December 2015, when that article was edited. Nexus000 (talk) 10:59, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Recentism! The proposal is to merge an article about an organisation that has existed for over 50 years and had hundreds of members into an article about one person who rose to minor notability 4 years ago. That's recentism, if anything is. I know it's not a joke - it's a good faith proposal. But, sorry to be so blunt, I find it astonishing. I'll give another example of recentism - we have an article about Lilia Tarawa but not one about Neville Cooper, who is far more notable!! Nurg (talk) 23:24, 9 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Acknowledgement

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Tarawa has acknowledged this page:

https://www.facebook.com/liliatarawa/posts/406595797353913

https://www.instagram.com/p/CN5rgFypNSz/

Nexus000 (talk) 12:59, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't opened either (and I probably won't), but this strikes me as kind of inappropriate. Uporządnicki (talk) 14:08, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to delete if inappropriate. Just thought it was interesting. Nexus000 (talk) 14:11, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of content

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Per WP:PRSOURCE and WP:ABOUTSELF I've trimmed most of the content, especially that about Gloriavale as it is not about Tarawa herself and Tarawa is not an independent source here. I will note the claims about Neville Cooper would be BLP violations were he still alive and I implore that not to be restored as it takes something written as 'claimed by former member' in the RS to stating it in wikivoice. Traumnovelle (talk) 19:24, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Traumnovelle: I restored some of the content you removed. I would call the content I restored relevant and pertinent to Lilia's story, and not within the purview of either WP:PRSOURCE and WP:ABOUTSELF. Additionally, I don't understand the reluctance to include the content about Neville Cooper, especially this passage:
At 16 years old, Lilia made a vow to her grandfather Neville Cooper during a commitment ceremony, promising she would submit to men, look after the home and remain "meek", "modest" and "pure". She renounced adultery, divorce, birth control, and abortion. Tarawa also vowed to marry whichever man the community's leaders chose and clean, cook, and sew for the community of around 500 people. Tarawa vowed to disown and condemn anyone who was not a believer.
And this passage as well:
Neville Cooper, the leader of Gloriavale, believed women were ready for marriage and sex when they began their menstrual cycle. Tarawa says it was only the New Zealand marriage laws which stopped marriages before the age of 16. Tarawa says Cooper "would have happily married off children of 10 or 12 years" if the law allowed it. At 18 years old, two incidents altered her perspective on Gloriavale. These included witnessing a young boy being violently punished with a leather belt. Another was her best friend being told she had to marry an Indian boy she had never met because Gloriavale planned to open a chapter in India.
I am far removed from New Zealand, but is there something specific about the sources for the above? Additionally, Neville Cooper is called out all over the main Gloriavale Christian Community, with the above claims being echoed in that article as well. Tarawa didn't flee Gloriavale for the heck of it, she and her family fled because of the above (awful) events and behavior. I would say it's definitely relevant to her article. I would love to hear your specific thoughts? Thanks! CaptainAngus (talk) 01:11, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because Tarawa is not an independent subject, these are her claims and we should not report them as facts. The source states 'In the book Tarawa claims arranged marriages were decided by Cooper who also believed girls were ready for marriage, and sex, as soon as they began their menstrual cycle.' yet here it is being treated as fact. Traumnovelle (talk) 01:34, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most of the information restored falls under that, Tarawa is not independent and sources must be independent to ensure NPOV. This is a requirement of WP:RS.
The 1news interview didn't have an independent source and is self-serving. If an interview/documentary/book/anything is due for inclusion it needs independent coverage (unless in a list of works). Traumnovelle (talk) 01:39, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. I restored a paragraph on Cooper, introducing wording to make it clear this is based on what Tarawa wrote in her book. I think this is vital to establish why Tarawa and her family left Gloriavale, especially given his role as founder and the fact that he was convicted of sexual abuse of minors (as described in the main Gloriavale Christian Community article). I also removed the paragraph based on the references from 1news based on what you said above. CaptainAngus (talk) 00:26, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It still sounds like a fact and not a claim 'In her book, Tarawa describes how Neville Cooper, the leader of Gloriavale, believed women were ready for marriage and sex when they began their menstrual cycle.'. Traumnovelle (talk) 03:32, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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