Talk:Lido Pimienta

NPOV violation

The article states:

A disruption occurred during Pimienta's concert at the Halifax Pop Explosion music festival on October 19, 2017. According to a statement that was released by the festival "the incident involved a white volunteer photographer and several white audience members who reacted negatively when Pimienta invited 'brown girls to the front' during her Oct. 19 show" (as reported by The Canadian Press). When the festival-sanctioned volunteer photographer, who was engaged in documenting the performance, refused to move after ten separate requests Pimienta said, "You're cutting into my set time and you're disrespecting these women, and I don't have time for this". The volunteer was removed from the show and the festival organizers apologized to Pimienta.

That makes it look as if the volunteer was being racist.

In reality, the source says that the singer asked white people to move to the back. It was the singer, not the volunteer, who was being racist. This information should be added to the article.

71.182.242.183 (talk) 16:27, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Doesn't run afoul of NPOV because it states that a disruption occurred and then cites the statement from the festival organizers but I do agree that this could be worded better. Perhaps even add a section for allegations of racism Raitchison (talk) 18:41, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Racism only exists when one is punching downward at people who have less power and privilege than the puncher — punching up at people who have more power and privilege than the puncher does is not racism no matter how you slice it. A white person marginalizing people of colour is racism, while a person of colour trying to give other people of colour a leg up is not morally equivalent in any way, shape or form. And just for the record, I'm a white guy, and I wouldn't have been offended a whit by what she did had I been there — because I have some perspective, and understand that my being temporarily inconvenienced as a white person is a First world problem that's not even remotely equivalent to the very real shit that people of colour have to deal with every damn day of their lives. And at any rate, Wikipedia is not a discussion forum: we follow a neutral point of view, and are not a platform for people to go around propagating their own personal opinions about our article subjects. Bearcat (talk) 20:10, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Why are you soapboxing if this isn't a forum? You'd probably argue Dead Prez aren't racist either. Anyways, if my "non-white" friends accepted the offer to go upfront and leave me behind, I'd be pissed, but my friends wouldn't abandon me cause I wouldn't be friends with racists in the first place. My Colombian-Canadian wife is embarrassed by the demand for racial segregation. Of 19 (talk) 21:33, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Responding to someone else's soapboxing does not in any way, shape or form mean that I'm even remotely soapboxing myself. Bearcat (talk) 02:10, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Bearcat I must admit I find your definition of racism um... interesting? I should say I do not agree with it, and I do believe, from personal experience, that racism goes 'both ways' and is equally reprehensible. Perhaps the term "punching" is also not the best to use in this context.

WP Racism itself says:

"Racism is the belief in the superiority of one race over another, which often results in discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity. Today, the use of the term "racism" does not easily fall under a single definition." and I have added

Could you provide a wp:RS for your definition. Regards 220 of ^Borg 07:33, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

References

It's not enough to just read the introduction to our article on the subject, which is by nature a very general summary that doesn't have the time or space to delve into all the nuances that are explained in the body. Racism requires a privilege differential, in which the perpetrator has a race-based power advantage over the victim. If the "perpetrator" and the "victim" are in an equal relationship, or if the "perpetrator" is in the less privileged position in the interaction, then whatever's happening it's not racism, because racism requires its perpetrator to be in the higher privilege position of an unequal relationship. It's like telling me as a gay man that I have some kind of responsibility to make a special effort to avoid coming across as "heterophobic" when I try to say or do anything about homophobia — as a gay man, I get to respond to homophobia in any tone of voice and any tactic I damn please, and I have no special responsibility to be more solicitous of the homophobe's feelings than they were of mine in the first place. There's this thing called tone policing, where instead of actually engaging the issue that was raised, the discussion gets derailed by complaints about the tone that the issue was raised in — but it's not acceptable, and nobody owes the derailers a higher degree of special attention to their feelings about the interaction than the LGBT/POC was being given to theirs in the first place. That's how this stuff works. Bearcat (talk) 08:06, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

As far as I can see you are only giving your opinion, one which I (my opinion) do not believe is shared by the majority of people, or apparently by dictionaries. You say ".. racism requires its perpetrator to be in the higher privilege position of an unequal relationship ..." No, I do not agree, as I alluded to I have experienced racism, and sexism, from people who could be termed a 'minority'. Racism is racism, sexism is sexism, no matter 'up' or 'down' in supposed privilege. Please provide some sort of reliable source, I may change my position. 220 of ^Borg 01:08, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

No, I'm not just giving my "opinion"; every single source which actually examines racism in detail, rather than just flinging the accusation around subjectively among people who only half-understand what it really means, defines and analyzes the term exactly as I just did: entirely inseparable from the matter of systemic racial privilege. Bearcat (talk) 21:18, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Taken from this source, the organizers appear to view the volunteer's choice to not move to the back as racist. http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/29/canadian-music-festival-says-sorry-for-racist-white-staffer-who-didnt-want-to-move-to-the-back/

"The Halifax Pop Explosion music festival is apologizing for the actions of a photographer who refused to acquiesce to Pimienta’s request during her October 19 show. Her refusal to do so was considered an “interruption” and deemed an act of “overt racism,” according to the festival’s board of directors, who are now promising to make changes to the event.

The board promises to improve “anti-oppression and anti-racism training” for their staff next year, essentially asking them to give in to the demands of people who supposedly face more oppression than they do." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:2c6:4e00:3859:19c5:8a1d:b64:9434 (talk • contribs) 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 November 2017

Jcs3460 (talk) 20:38, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

You need to specify what changes you want made to the article. An edit request is not actionable if there's nothing being requested. Bearcat (talk) 20:55, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Racism

whereas the racist nature of what transpired is the only reason for the inclusion of the following paragraph as it stands in the article, and

whereas it was previously discussed here on the talk page, racism is when a person is "punching down",

whereas Lido was literally up on the stage and had the photographer below removed on the basis of her skin colour, this is an instance of racism and should be characterized as such, in keeping with NPOV

During her performance at the Halifax Pop Explosion music festival on October 19, 2017, Pimienta, as she often did during her concerts, invited the "brown girls to the front". According to a statement that was subsequently released by the festival, "the incident involved a white volunteer photographer and several white audience members who reacted negatively" to Pimienta's request. When the photographer refused to move after repeated requests, Pimienta said, "you're cutting into my set time and you're disrespecting these women, and I don't have time for this". The volunteer was removed from the show and the festival organizers later apologized to Pimienta, and said they would increase "anti-oppression and anti-racism training". You the man(converse) 09:30, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

an instance of racism and should be characterized as such appears to be your own analysis, i.e. original research and not adhering to BLP policy principles. And per WP:CSECTION, "controversy" sections are discouraged in the first place. Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 00:01, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Of course, you are also entitled to your opinion. However, the consensus is that a racist incident did occur at Pimienta's concert. Whether it was a singular defining moment in her career, and possibly that of the photographer, OR whether it was a pattern of behaviour as seems to be the case, IF the account of the incident is to remain where it is for now, under the "Career" heading, THEN the people who want to know what exactly transpired need not rely on Wikipedia to inform them. There is nothing wrong with characterizing the incident as racist, as I did under a separate heading, it isn't my own original research because the cited source uses that term in its title, although there is certainly disagreement, or controversy right here on this talk page, on other online sources, in the cited article, and in the crowd at the concert over exactly who was being racist, Pimienta or the photographer, and that's okay too. The source states that Pimienta frequently asks her audience to welcome people of colour to the front of the stage. In turn, she requests that white people move back. A woman who was in the crowd at the concert was quoted as saying "There was a man standing behind me, an older man, who was referring to Lido as a racist because she was dividing the crowd,". That's the kind of information that is relevant and makes an article worth reading.

You the man(converse) 04:32, 15 June 2021 (UTC)