Talk:Leonid Kharitonov (singer)

Critical commentaries on videos: please read this before editing

Please note that the critical commentary on a music video which appears in the article is a necessary part of the Fair Use Rationale for the Non-free content licence of the screenshot image referred to in the commentary. No critical commentary = no screenshot image: it's as simple as that. At the time of writing this (October 2009) we have no available alternative image of this soloist in the particular performance concerned.

Of course the critical commentary is subject to editing, improvement, inline references, Wikifying and the rest, just like the rest of the article, and you are welcome to do this. But please don't delete it entirely (or we lose the image). If you do edit it, please copy your edits exactly on the image filepage. NB: The commentary has to be about the video from which the screenshot was taken, and not about identifying the soloist or for any other reason - otherwise the image licence becomes invalid.

Thank you for your cooperation.--Storye book (talk) 16:32, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Jewish

Based on the fact that I know of a musical Jewish family Kharitonov, I wouldn't be surprised if Leonid Mikhalovitch was also Jewish. Can this be confirmed? Debresser (talk) 21:26, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi. No I am quite certain that he is Russian Orthodox. In fact, in the Private Life Section in the article, you will see a mention about the return of an icon that he had restored to the church in his home village of Golumet. DSjersey (talk) 12:05, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

NOT Jewish! L. Kharitonov (about self):"Russian - it sounds proudly!"read (rus lang) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.31.204.21 (talk) 21:33, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Overuse of fair use images

This article has inexcess of 20 non-free images on it. That's pretty excessive, making it one of the top 50 articles on Wikipedia for the number of non-free images on it. I've placed the {{non-free}} template on this article. We don't need a sound clip and screenshot for every video listed. It's unnecessary. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:47, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

These jpg and ogg files were in the process of being replaced by two editors, one of whom owns the copyright to all of them, along with Leonid Mikhailovich himself. Now, by deleting some of the jpg files, you have made it difficult to replace them with the exact same ones, as they have many of these. Please do not delete any more files until they have had time to replace them with free licences under their own copyright. Please could you put the deleted files on the user page of MKharitonov, as user-read-only files, to make it easier for him to know which ones to replace. Please give him time as he is extremely busy right now. Thank you.--Storye book (talk) 22:44, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Update and comment: The five screenshot images now have free licences, and the images files are linked to copyright permissions on L.M. Kharitonov's own website. I strongly disagree with the comments made by Hammersoft above, on the following grounds:

1. I could not see 20 non-free images when Hammersoft made the above comment in April, unless he/she meant items in the navbox at the bottom of the page. If this is the case, let us know, because if we must sacrifice images, it is obviously better to sacrifice navbox images than to wantonly delete article images which were originally correctly licensed (which deletion was the effect of Hammersoft's tag and above comment).
2. This article is a special case in which we do indeed need a sound clip and screenshot for every video for which there is a commentary (not for every video listed, as Hammersoft puts it). The reason for this is that Kharitonov is the last remaining great operatic soloist from the Cold War years when these singers were effectively hidden from the West. This is our last chance to try and see, hear and understand a school of music which is almost entirely gone for ever. It involved groundbreaking singing techniques promoted by Kanger, the music teacher who gave them that extraordinary ability and prowess.
3. The West still does not have singers of this type, and Russia probably could not produce such singers again, now that Kanger is gone. Therefore these aids are very necessary to help the West to understand what we have missed and what we may completely lose in due course.
4. This is the first time that this school of music has been written about in a serious and encyclopaedic manner in the West. It has necessitated a massive and very difficult international effort involving people in Russia, the U.S.A and the U.K. Please do not destroy this unique and necessary work. Thank you.--Storye book (talk) 23:16, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

File:Leonid Kharitonov - Ej uhnem.ogg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Leonid Kharitonov - Ej uhnem.ogg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: Wikipedia files with no non-free use rationale as of 3 December 2011 What should I do? Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to provide a fair use rationale If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale, then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Deletion Review This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 08:24, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

File:Leonid Kharitonov - Cliff.ogg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Leonid Kharitonov - Cliff.ogg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: Wikipedia files with no non-free use rationale as of 3 December 2011 What should I do? Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to provide a fair use rationale If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale, then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Deletion Review This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 08:25, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

File:Leonid Kharitonov - Dark Eyed Cossack Girl.ogg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Leonid Kharitonov - Dark Eyed Cossack Girl.ogg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: Wikipedia files with no non-free use rationale as of 3 December 2011 What should I do? Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to provide a fair use rationale If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale, then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Deletion Review This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 08:25, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

File:Leonid Kharitonov - Along the Peterskaya.ogg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Leonid Kharitonov - Along the Peterskaya.ogg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: Wikipedia files with no non-free use rationale as of 3 December 2011 What should I do? Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to provide a fair use rationale If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale, then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Deletion Review This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 08:25, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

File:Leonid Kharitonov - Shine Shine My Star.ogg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Leonid Kharitonov - Shine Shine My Star.ogg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: Wikipedia files with no non-free use rationale as of 3 December 2011 What should I do? Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to provide a fair use rationale If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale, then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Deletion Review This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 08:25, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

External links modified

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On Alexander Navrotsky, the "Cliff"'s author

• Re: The lyrics were written in 1864 by novelist Alexander Alexandrovich Navrotsky who was also a member of Narodnaya Volya (Russian: Народная Воля), a secret revolutionary organization perhaps best known for assassinating Tsar Alexander II on 13 March 1881. - While the song indeed was popular with Narodnaya Volya, Alexander Navrotsky has never been a member of it. In fact, since 1903 he was a member of something of the opposite, the right-wing, proto-fascist Russian Assembly. Surely, he held more liberal views in 1864 when he wrote the song, but in 1879-1884, when Narodnaya Volya was functioning, he was already serving as a high-ranking Russian military official in Vilno, writing pro-monarchist essays, glorifying Tsar Alexander II. So, sorry, but I have to remove this bit. -- Evermore2 (talk) 21:15, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

• Thank you very much for your helpful edit and information. This is much appreciated. However, bearing in mind tht this kind of subject can be controversial, it would help if you could kindly attach a reference link here on the talk page? It's fine if the link is in Russian, because there are regular Russian watchers of this page. Storye book (talk) 10:35, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

OK, my choice would be this one for it contains two enries, from the 1999 Biographical Dictionary and the 1969 Literary Encyclopedia. Indeed, I wonder if somebody could provide details (for me to use in the Navrotsky article) as to the circumstances of The Ciff's creation, for it was written apparently when the author was convalescing from the injury he received in Poland, and full of hard feelings, aimed, curiously, against not the Poles, but rather the Russian 'Imperial Eagle'.

And thank you for this fantastic work you've done on Leonid Kharitonov! My favourite clip of his is this one, for the song itself is a wonder. More like a scary prog rock suite. Preceded King Crimson/Arthur Brown for some 3-4 years, I'd say) -- Evermore2 (talk) 18:10, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. I have added the ref to the article. That song means a lot to Kharitonov also, because on the day he sang that concert at the Tchaikovsky Hall, two of his military friends were blasted into space where they were to do a spacewalk, and no doubt he was thinking of their bravery. Storye book (talk) 18:31, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Update 20 September 2017

An anonymous editor has just updated the article to say that Leonid Kharitonov has died. I am currently checking the truth of this information before adjusting the article further. Thank you for your patience. Storye book (talk) 07:41, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

According to the Сlassical Muic News site, yes. No mention of the cause of death, though. news.sputnik.ru seconds this, citing CMNews as a source. And that is all? Looks implausible. It would have been on all the major channels, here in Russia. Hardly a hoax, but - some kind of mistake, maybe? -- Evermore2 (talk) 20:05, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

It has now been confirmed to me that Leonid Kharitonov indeed died on 19th September 2017 of a heart attack. I have updated the wording of the article accordingly, but we await appropriate citations, e.g. an obituary from a Moscow newspaper. Meanwhile, thank you Evermore2 for the links which I shall add as a source for the present.Storye book (talk) 08:01, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Removal of unreferenced sections

Here are my edit summaries:

• 1983 video of Along the Peterskaya (Street): rm section in which not a single footnote speaks about Kharitonov undo
• 1965 video of Song of the Volga Boatmen: rm unreferenced text. Links to videos are not references. Need refs to critical songs
• /* Critical commentaries on performances after 1972 */ rm text with fake ref: it does not speak about the song not a single word

@Storye book: I could have missed something, please state your objections to my commentaries in this talk page. --Altenmann >talk 16:45, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

As I understood it when the article was created, critical commentaries of artworks, including musical artworks, were permitted on Wikipedia without citations, where they explained the artwork and/or image. The facts which you deem uncited were got directly from Leonid Kharitonov himself, translated via his son Mikhail, towards the end of Kharitonov's life. The intention was not about bias or non-neutrality, or misuse of OR. It was about getting facts. I speak no Russian, and did not have direct access to Russian sources, and Kharitonov was a witness to the said facts. Due to conscription fears, many residents of Moscow who were important researchers of this subject are now scattered to the winds. Some have died. Kharitonov was the last surviving Soloist of the Ensemble from the time of Boris Alexandrov, so that information was considered valuable. If you delete it, we won't get it elsewhere. Kharitonov also provided a lot of personal and political information about the Soloists of the Ensemble and Soloists of the Choir which would have been valuable to historians, but I used none of that, due to WP rules. Just facts about the music. There was no intention on my part to place fake citations. Storye book (talk) 17:08, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

"If you delete it, we won't get it elsewhere" -- Well, sad, but we cannot have any info in Wikipedia without references. Yes, in early Wikipedia days the rules were different. But the rules WP:CITE and WP:RS were not just a bureaucratic whim, believe me. --Altenmann >talk 19:38, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

There was no need to remove those images. They are are not non-free. They are on Commons, on a free licence. See here and here. Those links are provided on the image filepages. Storye book (talk) 17:19, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

I removed the images after reading #Critical commentaries on videos: please read this before editing. Restored. --Altenmann >talk 19:38, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the image permissions were updated to free-use after the above section was written. So thank you for restoring the images. I have put them in a gallery, because they squash main text on a pc monitor.

Re your comment, " we cannot have any info in Wikipedia without references", actually that is not the case. I understand that it is permitted to include a novel's or story's plot outline in articles about fiction. Storye book (talk) 09:18, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, a plot is actually verifiable, hence allowable per WP:V and MOS:PLOT. The only problem with plot writers is that sometimes they insert their own commentary, embellishments, and opinions, but this is usually easily detectable even without comparing with the source. Of course, to verify a plot one sometimes have to read the whole War and Peace, :-) but strsangely, I have never met a vandal corrupting a plot. 16:02, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Haha, any true reflection of plot in true literature would have to include interpretation. For an extreme example: Joyce's Finnegan's Wake. For a basic example, any book with an unspoken agenda, which might be any book (according to Roland Barthes et al, with their postmodernist "death of the author"). Yes I have read War and Peace (though back in the 70s) and you'd have to mention the parallel with Voltaire's Candide - both being a buldungsroman, both are searches for the right philosophy - but with the Tolstoy you'd also have to include the intermittent massive rants about how to win an old-fashioned war with footsoldiers and what the heck that has to do with the soap opera about Pierre Bezuhov, the big clumsy bear, who surely has to represent Russia, because Tolstoy always called 19th-century Russia a big clumsy (beloved) bear. All that is interpretation, but you can't write out the plot without it. Or you shouldn't. Then there is (for example) the Spectator (1711), where Joseph Addison was taking the mickey by noting the stupid things that the middle classes were doing, then sarcastically recommending those stupid things as a means of social climbing, then laughing at the idiots who took it all seriously as "rules" of good manners etc. There is no way of relating what is in Addison's Spectator without mentioning what was really going on, which is probably why it is not in WP's Addison article. But never mind: Viz magazine has taken up that joke and run with it, in its Top Tips section. Tee hee. Of course, with trash novels (i.e. non-literature) and B-movies you could do it: Policeman, villain, car chase, end of. Or boy meets girl, difficulties arise, they get back together. Or not. (But who cares?).Storye book (talk) 18:11, 17 September 2024 (UTC)