Talk:Laysan honeycreeper

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Laysan honeycreeper/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: FunkMonk (talk · contribs) 14:47, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Esculenta (talk · contribs) 16:53, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi FunkMonk, I'll do this review. Will take a few days. Also, let me know if this is heading to FAC and, if you'd like, I could be extra nitpicky. Esculenta (talk) 16:53, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, yeah, FAC is the plan, so be as nitpicky as possible. Note I haven't done alt text yet, because I'll handle that inconvenience when I hit FAC... FunkMonk (talk) 19:27, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Here's my review. The article is nicely researched, written, and illustrated; looks like you've done this before! Since there isn't much to be criticized with the article, I got very nitpicky in the commentary below, but feel free to push back on my suggestions. Haven't looked for other sources, or performed spot-checks (will do on next visit). Esculenta (talk) 02:02, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Nice, that'll sure be helpful when the time comes. It's a lot, so I'll fix it drip wise. FunkMonk (talk) 21:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I believe everything has been addressed now, Esculenta. FunkMonk (talk) 18:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

And new comments are now addressed, Esculenta. FunkMonk (talk) 00:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Alright, I think that's about all of the nits I have to pick in this article. I checked for extra sources, but didn't find anything more than passing mentions of the subject; it seems you've used all of the major ones I can see. Passing this as good article now. Esculenta (talk) 03:27, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Lead

• "The bird was first noticed in 1828, and received its scientific name by Walter Rothschild in 1892, and was placed in the genus Himatione along with the ʻapapane." construction slightly awkward, suggest "… noticed in 1828, received its scientific name from Walter…"

Done. FunkMonk (talk) 21:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• " but was misspelled, and Rothschild attempted" suggest sentence break -> " but was misspelled. Rothschild later attempted"

Done. FunkMonk (talk) 21:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• I think the fact that Laysan is a coral island is notable/interesting enough to be mentioned in the lead

Added "Laysan is a remote coral island". FunkMonk (talk) 21:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• "The specific name, fraithii, refers to George D. Freeth," leaves me wondering who Freeth is

Added "the self-appointed governor of Laysan". FunkMonk (talk) 21:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• "a grouping within Carduelinae," suggest "a grouping within the finch subfamily Carduelinae,"

Done. FunkMonk (talk) 21:13, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• possibly useful links (this suggested list for entire article, not just lead): covert feather, iris, song, breeding season, introduced, naturalist, modifier, loan-words (also, confirm hyphenation), common name, nest, egg, sex ratio, coral island, clade, plumage, lineage, divergence, breeding season, substratum, topography, flora, down (from "brown down"), clutch

All added now. I suspect some of these, like nest and egg, will be considered WP:overlinking at FAC. Coral island was already linked both in the intro and article body. While doing this, I noticed "eggs" redirected to "eggs as food". I just redirected it to "egg", but I could imagine there might be pushback. Why should the plural of such an important biological concept be reduced to human food? That certainly can't be the main subject. FunkMonk (talk) 22:23, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Agree with you about the eggs link, and the suggestions of overlinking with egg and nest. There are, however, more subject-specific links for bird eggs and bird nests, which I think would be appropriate. Esculenta (talk) 05:14, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Didn't know those articles existed, now linked. FunkMonk (talk) 20:58, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

• "This bird was very active, and while less confiding than other birds," I had to search the internet to unconfuse myself and realize that "wikt:confiding" has a birdwatching-specific meaning here; perhaps meaning that should be integrated into the text somehow.

Seems to not have a very different meaning than in general use? I think it's already explained by "they were reported to sometimes enter buildings to hunt moths and for roosting at night", not sure how else it could be elaborated on from the sources. FunkMonk (talk) 22:23, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Random internet definition of confiding (which I think would align with most people's definition of the word): "willing to tell someone about a secret or private matter and trust them not to repeat it to others". Specific bird-watching definition: "referring to a bird that is not shy around humans and allows people to approach closely without flying away." I think the specific use is far enough away from the general use that, at least for the first time the word is used, a more readily accessible phrasing could be beneficial (e.g. "This bird was very active and, while less trusting of humans than other birds,"). Esculenta (talk) 05:14, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Went with "trusting". FunkMonk (talk) 20:58, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

• "it sometimes entered buildings for moths" meaning slightly ambiguous … to hunt moths? … because moths coerced them?

Added "to hunt". FunkMonk (talk) 21:13, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• the precision of the length of the "typical" egg looks quite specific, and the first converted measurement has more implied accuracy than the input number (similar issue with the wing measurement above)

Some of these are because older sources often use imperial units, so in these cases I had to add the "order" parameter, and that means the "second" number was sometimes more precise. But I might have fixed some of that now? I'm not really great with numbers and their templates. FunkMonk (talk) 22:23, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Most are fixed, but there's still "18 by 13.75 mm (0.709 by 0.541 in)" in the lead. Esculenta (talk) 05:14, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Whoops, hopefully fixed. FunkMonk (talk) 20:58, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

• "extinction of 3 out of 5" numbers under ten should written out per MOS:NUMERAL

Done. FunkMonk (talk) 01:21, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• typically the synonymy list includes the authorities and years of publication, and it should include a citation in the "synonyms_ref" parameter

Didn't do this yet because I knew it would be a pain, but now done. FunkMonk (talk) 22:23, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

• throughout the article, I notice the middle initial(s) of people are always given, and I question the value of this practice. Is there that much added value (disambiguatory or otherwise), e.g., in knowing Hugo Schauinsland's middle initial is "H"?

Well, it can be crucial for linking to the right articles if there are multiple persons with the same name. And if a person doesn't have an article and might get one in the future, it will be easier to track articles down where they could be linked to like this one, so I think it does more good than not. FunkMonk (talk) 21:13, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I disagree, and thought about analysing each specific instance in the article to convince you that's it's unnecessary, but decided nah... I'll just leave you with this thought: imagine having a conversation with someone and every time they mention a person, they give their first name and middle initial. Wouldn't that sound somewhat ... unusual? Esculenta (talk) 05:14, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't really feel strongly about it, but I'd say most of what's written in this article wouldn't really make sense in a regular conversation hehe... If it's brought up at the FAC I'll snip it, but it hasn't been an issue in the past. FunkMonk (talk) 20:58, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Taxonomy

• suggest non-breaking spaces in short-form binomial names to avoid unsightly line breaks (in image caption too)

Added. FunkMonk (talk) 05:50, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• "manager of the guano-mining there," feels like it's missing a word, maybe "manager of the guano-mining operations there,"

Added. FunkMonk (talk) 21:13, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• ", and restricted Himatione to the red species; the ʻapapane and the Laysan honeycreeper." semicolon doesn't work here

Changed to comma. FunkMonk (talk) 21:13, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• what year did Hartert consider the bird a subspecies of ʻapapane"?

1919, added. FunkMonk (talk) 21:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• it appears that "Native Hawaiians" should be capitalized, based on the linked article

Done, and linked whole term. FunkMonk (talk) 21:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• maybe also give the location of the museums that are mentioned, for prose confirmation of specimens found "in various museums across the world"

Added. There are many specimens outside the US, but not as many per museum, which is logical since it lived on US territory. FunkMonk (talk) 16:43, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• "Schauinsland considered the Laysan honeycreeper an example of how a new species may arise through isolation in 1899." Placement of year at end makes the sentence construction somewhat awkward. Also, I'm wondering if it's worthwhile to mention that this is know known as allopatric speciation?

Moved year to start of sentence, pipelinked allopatric speciation. I don't think it can be stated outright, as none of the sources make the connection explicitly. FunkMonk (talk) 16:43, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• the three extinct Laysan birds image needs to explain in the caption which are which

Added. FunkMonk (talk) 21:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• Phylogenetic Species Concept per the link, this does not need to be capitalized

Fixed, was capitalised in the source for some reason. FunkMonk (talk) 21:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• "(formerly spelled Drepanidae or Drepaniidae, which turned out to be preoccupied by a family of moths[16])" could be confusing to non-taxonomists, perhaps a bit more context like "(formerly spelled Drepanidae or Drepaniidae, a name which turned out to be nomenclaturally unavailable as it was preoccupied by a family of moths[16])", and link available name

Took your suggestion. FunkMonk (talk) 16:43, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• italicize Palmeria

Done. FunkMonk (talk) 21:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• "and it was also considered a subspecies of the ʻapapane for most of this time, H. sanguinea freethii." suggest slight ordering tweak "and it was also considered a subspecies of the ʻapapane, H. sanguinea freethii, for most of this time."

Done, though I added "as" in front of the trinomial, so it doesn't look like it's the name of the ʻapapane. FunkMonk (talk) 16:43, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• "From 1893–1900, Rothschild published a three-part monograph" suggest "From 1893 to 1900" Why? When phrase is introduced with "from", reader expects "to", possible creating a slight cognitive dissonance as readers may briefly pause to interpret the symbol, and in formal writing words are often preferred over symbols for clarity and flow.

Done. FunkMonk (talk) 16:43, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• ""They speculated that if this bird could survive on Laysan, there could also have been a niche for a relative on the island of Nihoa." suggest "They speculated that if this bird could survive on Laysan, there could also be a niche for a relative on the island of Nihoa." or "They speculated that if this bird could have survived on Laysan, there might also have been a niche for a relative on the island of Nihoa." (verb tenses should stay consistent)

Took your first suggestion. Also linked ecological niche. FunkMonk (talk) 16:43, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• "The German superintendent of the guano operation, Max Schlemmer, introduced domestic rabbits, European hares, and guinea pigs to the island in 1903 to start a meat-canning business that would provide food for guano miners, but also to amuse his children." suggest "… guano miners and to amuse his children." the original use of "but" implies a contrast between the two purposes. However, there's no inherent contrast between providing food for miners and amusing his children; both can coexist without implying contradiction.

Done. FunkMonk (talk) 16:43, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Description

• "breeding-season" or "breeding season"?

Done. FunkMonk (talk) 21:13, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Habitat

• "an area of 1.4 square miles, and the honeycreeper lived" suggest sentence break here.

Done. FunkMonk (talk) 16:43, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• "The island is roughly triangular" really? I don't see it; to me, it looks so "roughly" triangular as to be quadrilateral!

Just removed it as its shape has little relevance to the bird. But it was what the source said. FunkMonk (talk) 18:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• "This bird was very active, and while less confiding than other birds, it sometimes entered buildings for moths and for roosting at night." suggest tweak of punctuation placement: "This bird was very active and, while less confiding than other birds, sometimes entered buildings for moths and for roosting at night."

Done. FunkMonk (talk) 18:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• "rises into up to 12 m (40 ft) high crest elevations" needs adj=on in convert template

Done. FunkMonk (talk) 05:50, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• "about one fifth of the island's center" needs hyphenation

Added. FunkMonk (talk) 18:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• "handnet"; "rain water"; "sea bird"? one word or two? sometimes the format of the linked article contradicts the format used in this article

I've often just followed the sources, not sure whether they need to be consistent across words or follow the Wikipedia titles, but I've changed a few. FunkMonk (talk) 18:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• "its bowl measured about 5.7 cm (2.25 in) across and 4.13 cm (1.625 in) in depth." there's something jarring with first saying "about" (which makes the reader anticipate approximation), and then giving such precise measurements. Note again, the precision inexplicably grows with the unit conversion (ditto egg measurements later).

I've removed some of the digits. "About" is because I'm sure not every nest had the exact same measurements. FunkMonk (talk) 18:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• "While the Laysan rail probably did not survive on the island for long after the storm, it had been introduced to Midway Atoll, but went extinct there too by 1945 because rats were introduced accidentally during US military construction." Is the implication that the rats killed the bird? Any more details on this (do rats kill birds directly, or steal eggs?)

Added "(which preyed on eggs, chicks, and perhaps adults)". FunkMonk (talk) 21:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Behavior and ecology

• "The Laysan honeycreeper was nectarivorous and insectivorous, and unlike the ʻapapane, it also foraged on the ground."

Done. FunkMonk (talk) 21:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• "The bird does not seem to have been abundant when discovered, and was" suggest "The bird did not seem to be abundant when discovered and was"

Done. FunkMonk (talk) 21:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

References

• FN4: translated title would be nice

Done. FunkMonk (talk) 21:13, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• probably best if ISBN hyphenation is consistent throughout

Removed the hyphens, as some of them I simply can't figure out what their pattern is from searching the web. FunkMonk (talk) 22:23, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

• FN10: needs pp. & endash

Done. FunkMonk (talk) 21:13, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• FN18: maybe a bit unusual to "et al." after a single author, considering other pubs get two authors listed

Automatically regenerated it with all authors. FunkMonk (talk) 21:13, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• FN19: could use publication (or last update) date

Added. FunkMonk (talk) 21:13, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• FN25: they'll want a more specific page range or number at FAC

Done, was just a single page. FunkMonk (talk) 22:23, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

• FN26: could put doi-free as parameter to let readers know they can access that source (or link the PDF)

Isn't that already apparent from the linked title? There's a link to the PDF on the site.[1] I prefer linking to such sites rather than directly to PDFs to prevent automatic downloads. FunkMonk (talk) 21:13, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• FN32: the doi link says it's issue 85

Fixed (I think it was filled automatically). FunkMonk (talk) 21:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• a DEFAULTSORT template is unnecessary "if the article or page should be alphabetized according to its title (which is true for most articles)"

Removed, was there before I began work here. FunkMonk (talk) 21:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Images

• all images and media have Wikipedia-compatible licenses

I've added two more photos:[2][3] FunkMonk (talk) 21:13, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Both images public domain, all good. Esculenta (talk) 03:27, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Comments, round 2

• I made some copyedits, please check
• sfn #2 needs accessdate

Looks good! Added date. FunkMonk (talk) 20:58, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

• comment: "Her "clade 11" is depicted in the phylogram below" I think "cladogram" is the more correct term here, as the diagram doesn't show evolutionary distances (via varying branch lengths) that are associated with a phylogram, and instead shows the only the order of evolutionary branching.

The source itself actually says phylogram, which is why I used the term, but changed it, as I don't think it makes much of a difference. FunkMonk (talk) 20:58, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Spot checks:

• sfn#3: both spotchecks difficult: I'm not sure what exactly the citation is supporting, as all citations are given in a cluster at the end of paragraph. Same thing with its next use. A meaty paragraph with many facts has three citations at the end. What is supporting what? Obviously, the sentence ending with the statement "though the extent of the vegetation had almost recovered by 1973." isn't being supported by the source published in 1963, but that's what's implied from the citation placement. Are these "broad citations" allowed at FAC? Ok, so I have some concern about this citation style, but I'll try some spotchecks on singly cited (=more easily verifiable) sentences:

I've made the range of the 1963 source more specific, it was mainly used for some info about the Moller expedition and the geology of the island. I haven't had problems with such citation clusters at FAC, the reason for them is that the paragraphs they support are stitched together from different sources that each give different details about the same things, but each of them leave out details that the others have, so it's not really possibly to remove any of the. FunkMonk (talk) 00:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• "In 2011, the American ornithologist Peter Pyle pointed out that Rothschild…" sourced to sfn11: fine
• "It was the only nectar-feeding finch of the northwestern Hawaiian Islands." sourced to sfn#2: Cannot verify statement (e.g., can't see word "nectar" on page)

That's also a weird page, because it links to a list of individual bird species where you have to click on to one get the PDF where its info is in. Not sure how to cite it otherwise, but I've tried to link directly to this species' PDF instead. FunkMonk (talk) 00:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• "The Laysan honeycreeper gathered insects from flowers, such as small, green caterpillars, and were fond of the large, brownish moths called millers (including species of Agrotis and others now thought extinct[39])" sourced to sfn#39: partially verified; I didn't see any mention of small green caterpillars, and the source doesn't say that the insects are "extinct", rather, it refers to their "apparent disappearance". Also, it might be better to link directly to the correct page 22, as there are three page "22s" in this document

Citation 39 only supports the part inside the parenthesis where it's located, the rest of the sentence is supported by the sources by the end of it, including the green caterpillars (both Fisher sources). I've been told at FAC before that this was the way to source a part in a sentence that would otherwise be hard to connect with the citation if placed at the end of the sentence. As for the moths, I've just said "that have since disappeared" instead, to be closer to the source, but it's implied they're extinct, as the "survival" of others is mentioned right after. FunkMonk (talk) 00:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• "The sex ratio between adult specimens in museum collections is 1.7:1." sourced to sfn22: fine
• "Fisher collected a nest with an egg in mid-may, while the American zoologist William A. Bryan collected an egg on May 10. The American ornithologist Alfred M. Bailey, who visited Laysan in 1912, stated that the clutch size was four or five eggs, while sets of three were taken by various collectors." sourced to sfn20: fine
• "In 1915, the American First Lieutenant William H. Munter reported that the Laysan honeycreeper was fairly common, and that they were judged to number a 1000." sourced to sfn42: fine
• Dickey's last field notes quote is cited to two sources, but why? And which page of the 210 available in sfn#36 might one verify this quote?

Citation 27 is just a secondary source that cites that quote, I thought it would be better than just using the primary source itself, to show others have picked that part out, as well as identifying it as coming from Dickey, which is difficult to decipher from the raw field notes. I've specified the pages of citation 36 further. FunkMonk (talk) 00:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• more specific page # (s) for sfn#28 and sfn#36 please

Done. FunkMonk (talk) 00:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• note that "Per G.P." in sfn#29 doesn't get initials spaced, unlike the rest

Added space. FunkMonk (talk) 20:58, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

• in sfn#22, "Fancy, Steven G.; C. John Ralph" the second author formatting differs from others

Seems to have been an existing citation, and ugh, exactly why I used to only include initials for first names before. This is one of those cases where the author is only ever listed as " C. John Ralph", and I have no idea how to find his full name to make it consistent. I've fixed the citation template itself so that the names are in correct order, though. FunkMonk (talk) 20:58, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I find this fascinating if a species is rare surely it should be protected microduplicate chromosome 16p13.11 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.153.17.152 (talk) 00:37, 3 September 2024 (UTC)