Talk:Last Christmas (Doctor Who)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Clara's Involvement

Clara Oswald appeared to have left the show at the end of "Death in Heaven". Her story seemed to be over and she didn't appear in the teaser trailer for the Christmas special. One of the sources given "confirming" her involvement comes from a statement Steven Moffat made during the World Tour in August. Moffat is known for lying so as not to give away any plot details or spoil any of the episodes. I am aware that he is the head writer and executive producer but no official source from the BBC has stated that she IS in it. The closest we've got is the Radio Times, and they are occasionally wrong (eg. saying Amy Pond would be killed off in "The Big Bang" etc.) so I don't believe they are reliable.

This is a similar scenario to that of "Mummy on the Orient Express" a few weeks ago. Clara appeared to have left the show in the previous episode so the people on Wikipedia monitoring that page refused to add her involvement despite having no official source confirming/denying it.

109.152.235.65 (talk) 11:42, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

We leave the original research to other people. If they're wrong, then they're wrong (or lying or whatever). It's not our jobs to second-guess them. DonQuixote (talk) 13:23, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Natalie Gumede

Can someone add her name to the opening paragraph please? She's an established actress, more so than Nathan McMullen, thanks.Corabal (talk) 15:39, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Episode Date

The source given for the episode's title states that "Doctor Who: Last Christmas is on BBC1 on Christmas Day (25th December)". Is this a valid enough source to change "Christmas 2014" to "25 December 2014"? AlexTheWhovian (talk) 10:03, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I would agree. --TARDIS2468 (talk) 09:49, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

An episode review by the LA Times.

I enjoyed reading this review as the television critic, Mary McNamara, made some good points in a light-heated way: "Review: The Doctor spars with St. Nick in 'Doctor Who: Last Christmas'" - http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv/la-et-st-doctor-who-last-christmas-review-20141224-column.html Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 03:12, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Continuity and trivia

OK folks, some people do not seem to understand that we're trying to write an encyclopedia, not a fansite. We did away with "Trivia" and "Cultural references" a long time ago, and integrated relevant continuity elements into the plot where they belong, and only expanded on continuity in a separate section when the episode calls for it. This is not the case here; the episode is not part of a story arc and those point listed are not even important to the plot. Spotting similarities is not the same as continuity; without any impact in the story, it is merely trainspotting. In other words: if it is not worth noting it in the Plot section, it is not worth mentioning at all. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 09:05, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Fully agree. We need to keep this clutter out of articles. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 13:38, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

While I can buy the argument that pointing out similarities between episodes is trainspotting, it does seem that most of the Doctor Who episode articles have Continuity sections that consist mainly of such similarities. Can someone give an example of the kind of information that is appropriate for the Continuity section and is not just pointing out similarities? If not, perhaps there should be no Continuity section.Blackwood (talk) 22:25, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Jenna Coleman's decision to stay

There's been a rumour that Jenna Coleman was leaving but changed her mind, which forced Moffat to rewrite the christmas special. This originally comes from the Mirror (1). Other websites and reviews have spread it (including the AV Club which is quoted on the page). It must be noted that the Mirror is a tabloid, shouldn't be taken as facts and is already known for spreading false news and rumours, but let's assume this doesn't matter here, even if the article is vague : "a source said". Anyway... This "source" said she will be back for half a series this year, and Moffat later denied this.

Obviously the whole thing is supposed to be confirmed by the last twist of Last Christmas (which saw Santa come out of nowhere to make the whole "Clara ageing" plot a dream).

On the other hand, the whole episode is basically a succession of dreams. This is typically Moffat stuff, just by looking at The Angels Take Manhattan, we could have said the same thing from the final scene in the graveyard "you see, Amy and Rory were supposed to survive but Moffat put an angel out of nowhere and they died because the actors changed their mind". And indeed it was a last-minute rewrite, and Moffat confirmed he rewrote it, but added they were supposed to leave anyway (2). So why does the last scene of Last Christmas have to be the evidence for a supposed big change of heart ?

At least, we could say that Jenna didn't tell Moffat (3) so Moffat wrote something in what BOTH endings could happen : Clara leaving, and not leaving.

But unless Jenna Coleman or Steven Moffat confirms one of the versions, one day, can we say for SURE "the last scene is the original penned by Moffat before Jenna Coleman suddenly changed her mind" ? For now it's not true.

Not all of this is unfounded, but it is clearly vague. The page is supposed to gather information that we know for sure are true. If someone got a reliable statement from the actress or the writer where she/he confirmed this version, yes. But since we're not sure, since it clearly could totally be false, since nothing is official or has ever been confirmed, or even hinted, we shouldn't say that last scene was rewritten because of a change of heart, and this theory could be more nuanced on the page.

(1) http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/doctor-whos-jenna-coleman-not-4710238 (2) http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/moffat-talks-alternate-endings-movie-more-43335.htm (3) http://metro.co.uk/2014/12/25/jenna-coleman-was-to-ing-and-fro-ing-on-doctor-who-series-9-4997044/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nethersphere (talk • contribs) 02:24, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually, this page is supposed to contain information that is verifiable, not information that is "true" (but unsourced). The content currently on the page is sourced, whereas your assertion is not. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 11:01, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Ok, didn't get that (sry, new to the wikipedia discussions). Still, Moffat said Jenna didn't tell him either and sources can be found easily for that. So why do we keep saying the last scene was a last minute rewrite (where it was surely just made so both endings could happen) ? The interview Coleman and Moffat had after Christmas discredits the theory of a change of heart. And, it also denied the fact she was only staying for half a series, which just discredits more the original source from the Mirror. Again, we can source this easily.Nethersphere (talk) 16:25, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Fully agree, change the sentence. Clara Oswin Oswald (talk) 14:57, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

This contributes nothing to the discussion, with no reasons nor explanation behind why you do or do not agree. AlexTheWhovian (talk) 15:10, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

You're right, well this is simple : it has been reported that, indeed, Moffat didn't know Jenna Coleman's decision because she has been hesitant so from there is no "change of heart" possible.Clara Oswin Oswald (talk) 15:26, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Well the truth is now out in DWM last exit : Jenna Coleman was originally leaving at the end of Death in Heaven (makes sense considering Capaldi's words in August about him "not sure she'll make it to Christmas"). She then asked to be in the Christmas Special, Moffat penned the exit story and an alternative one (which is the one we know today) and since he prefered the later he really wished she had stayed... she did at the end after the first read-through. So even if Moffat hoped all along she would change her decision, and has in mind both endings, there was indeed a change of heart. Discussion closed, I guess. (source: http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-03-05/jenna-coleman-was-originally-going-to-leave-doctor-who-at-the-end-of-series-8) Nethersphere (talk) 17:06, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Merry Xmas Everybody

Hello and thank you for reading this,

I was charmed by the use of the song "Merry Xmas Everybody" by Slade, a song I only vaguely remember hearing in the past. I was curious about the song, and disappointed to not see it on the Last Christmas page, Researching, this song is a hugely popular Christmas perennial largely known only to members of the United Kingdom. And mostly unknown to the rest of the world.

Culturally the rest of the world would not understand its significance to a citizen of the United Kingdom. This is not just another Christmas song. Its popularity has survived 54 Christmases now. It is a very British part of the British television show Doctor Who. To me the use of "Merry Xmas Everybody" adds to the Britishness of Doctor Who, once I understood the history of the song.

Under Soundtrack I added "The song that Shona dances to is Slade's 1973 number one single Merry Xmas Everybody." My citation was http://www.vulture.com/2014/12/doctor-who-christmas-special-2014.html. The relevant part of the article starts "One of the most thoroughly foreign flourishes of the Who Christmas specials — to pretty much everyone living outside the U.K. — is the repeated use of Slade’s “Merry Xmas Everybody,,,,"

Added so those not from the United Kingdom would know what the song was, and its significance to those from the country who created this Doctor Who episode.

This minor add has now been reverted 3 times by AlexTheWhovian who has threatened to report me for edit warring, even though he is the one reverting this page. His reason, " This is unnecessary and trivial".

I believe my edit adds cultural context for the 90% of the world not from the United Kingdom.

I look forward to your comments. Thank you. KenJacowitz (talk) 13:14, 29 April 2017 (UTC)KenJacowitz

I think a line on this would be harmless enough. Readers scrolling to the "Soundtrack" section on an episode's article might reasonably expect some information on songs used in the episode, especially if a song is featured prominently or repeatedly. —Flax5 13:30, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you Flax5 KenJacowitz (talk) 14:47, 29 April 2017 (UTC)KenJacowitz

Again, this is unnecessary trivia, and does not affect the understanding of the episode at all. It is irrelevant on where the song is popular or not, and any "significance" has not been mentioned in the edits - do remember that this site applies to the entire world, not just those on the UK and what songs they like. See the discussion residing on my talk page. The editor does not understand that edit-warring is the attempt to force their disputed edits into the article despite being reverted by multiple editors, not the reverting of these disputed edits. -- Alex^TW 14:49, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

AlexTheWhovian is this you unsigned? Your opinion of what is trivia is subjective. Yes, "do remember that this site applies to the entire world" which is why I want to add cultural context. This is a British show. If Clara said she was "chuffed" or "knees up" would you revert that? The rest of the world does not understand. Not everyone lives in a Commonwealth of Nations country (Australia) and is more likely to be familiar with this song. If this is a TV show from Gambia or Taiwan it would be interesting to have cultural context for one of their popular songs.

And edit-warring is also where someone forces their subjective opinion by reverting a page. You are the one reverting. Please read what Flax5 wrote. "...might reasonably expect some information..." It's 15 words. Wiki will not be ruined. KenJacowitz (talk) 14:47, 29 April 2017 (UTC)KenJacowitz

Please indent your replies for ease of access. Cheers. I've edited hundreds, if not thousands of television articles by now in my time here, so I have a solid grasp on what is trivial and what is not. Yes, I would revert such content. And yet again (I seem to be repeating myself so often here), I've never even heard of the song before, so that is not why I am reverting. Concerning your comment of edit-warring is also where someone forces their subjective opinion by reverting a page - this is exactly what you are doing. Glad you agree. If you plan to continue, please detail how it is relevant to the article and expands upon the understanding of the events and/or real-world production and applications of the episode. Cheers. -- Alex^TW 14:54, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

AlexTheWhovian so any form of entertainment you would strip away any cultural context? Shakespeare, how the meaning of words has changed since Elizabethan Time? What the title of the Billie Holiday song "Strange Fruit" means? If some form of entertainment uses "Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore" citing "The Wizard of Oz" for those who have not seen it? So they are might then see "The Wizard of Oz"? And what is British to the British audience of a British TV show? You are opposed to context? KenJacowitz (talk) 15:15, 29 April 2017 (UTC)Ken Jacowitz

I've no idea what you are talking about now. The Wizard of Oz reference would be a direct outside reference, a section for which is included in many Doctor Who episode articles. We're talking about one song that's popular in one country with no outside relevance. -- Alex^TW 15:20, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

@KenJacowitz: That's a little hyperbolic, isn't it? I mean, it took you a while to find one reference to cite. "Trivial" and "harmless" doesn't even compare to "Strange Fruit" or Billie Holiday. If the majority of the sources aren't mentioning it, it probably shouldn't be mentioned in an encyclopaedia article (ie, due weight). DonQuixote (talk) 15:23, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree that it was a charming moment in the episode. However generally to be worthy of inclusion into an encyclopaedia, it would need to be significantly covered by multiple sources indicating it significance to the topic, generally this relates to WP:TRIVIAL. While 15 words appears harmless, but what about the next 15, and the next 15, how many harmless 15 words should we accept... The line has to get drawn somewhere - so significant coverage by secondary sources is generally a good start. Dresken (talk) 21:40, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

(I came here from the discussion that was (strangely enough) on the RefDesk.)

I'm afraid I agree that the song title is just trivia. Unless the song has specific relevance to the plot (For example if the lyrics gave The Doctor a vital clue) or unless the use of the song is surprising and notable in some other way, I don't see any purpose for it's inclusion.

It's a well known, long-lasting, and popular song. So what? It would actually be more notable if they used something obscure. But even then, there'd have to be more to it than just that.

I suppose it's a harmless enough addition, but articles like this one seem to accumulate fan-cruft very quickly, so I absolutely understand why other editors are resisting it.

ApLundell (talk) 03:37, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I bow to the collected editors here. Thank you for commenting. I thought it would be of interest to non-United Kingdom residents that the foreign television show they were watching was using an almost entirely locally known but extremely popular song that related to the theme of the episode, Christmas. And I had a citation, a review that explained at length what the song meant to the British. But to quote the editor who first reverted my addition, they can "google it".KenJacowitz (talk) 16:19, 10 May 2017 (UTC)KenJacowitz

Santa Claus vs. Father Christmas

Nick Frost is down as playing "Santa Claus" in the episode infobox - yet this is an American term and should be changed to "Father Christmas" seeing as Doctor Who is a British show and this is a British term. The character will probably be referred to as a number of different names within the coming episode, but Father Christmas would be the most common seeing as the show is intended for British children, some of whom might not know was a "Santa Claus" is.

JB (talk) 16:01, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. We need a source which explicitly gives the name of the character, and is itself non-speculative. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:52, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

To add: He is credited as "Santa Claus" in last episode's credits. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 20:40, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Random aside: even overlooking the question of whether or not the show is intended for children, I very much doubt there's a child in Britain who doesn't know who "Santa Claus" is........ -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:28, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

I find it very apt that Nick Frost should be playing Father Christmas/Santa Claus/Saint Nicholas - both Nick and Frost are associated somewhat with Christmas ...Rogerclarinet (talk) 20:41, 19 September 2017 (UTC)