Talk:Lascia ch'io pianga

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The text of "Lascia la spina" and a translation would be really nice to have in this article. --FA2010 (talk) 12:10, 22 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the text and a rough translation:

Lascia la spina, cogli la rosa; tu vai cercando il tuo dolor.

Canuta brina per mano ascosa, giungerà quando nol crede il cuor.

Leave the thorn, take the rose; you go searching for your pain.

Gray frost by hidden hand will come when you heart doesn't expect.

I will put it into the article with some clarification on the two earlier versions of the piece.Recorder485 (talk) 22:21, 17 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Original research?

Recently user:Cornelius Benedictus has introduced a new section in the article, with several sub-sections, containing listings of the recordings of the aria, each of which linked to YouTube. The new section is opened by the imprecise and unsourced statement: "while the original score is composed for a soprano voice, some versions arranged for alto and other voices are also available". Given the evidently incomplete and subjective nature of the lists, I wonder if all of the above has an encyclopaedic meaning or is instead simply an original research to be removed. Jeanambr (talk) 16:00, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Jeanambr, for your appointments on the subject. Since your suggestions, I have provided verifiable sources in order to prove that the aria has been arranged also for alto part since as old as in the year 1912 and recorded by contralto voice as old as 1909, as demonstrated by the due sources. Here I answer each one of your appointments:

In regards to the assertion that my contributions characterize original research, the policy is officially defined in Wikipedia:No original research as such: "original research means material — such as facts, allegations, and ideas — for which no reliable, published source exists. This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources"; as a proper examination proves, what I have written on the section is backed by reliable and published sources, and no further conclusions are included, therefore it can not be considered as original research in any way, since everything is easily verifiable through the sources provided.

About the relevance of the section as a whole, it should be noted that a Recordings section is also present in several music articles, such as Jauchzet Gott in allen Landen, where a similar list of recordings is provided, Rinaldo (opera), from which the aria Lascia ch'io pianga is taken, and Messiah (Handel), where the Recordings section has currently the extensive amount of 664 words. Then, if the Recordings section were to be removed from this aria's article, it should also be removed from many other ones, but that is not the case, since there is encyclopaedical relevance of such a section in articles about music pieces of historical importance.

Furthermore, the kind and quality of the recordings indicated for the aria on the section is not negligible, some of them being from the most critically acclaimed classical and operatic singers of our times and past, such as Cecilia Bartoli, Angela Gheorghiu, Patricia Petibon, Magdalena Kožená, Montserrat Caballé and Nathalie Stutzmann, just to name some of them, and most of the classical singers appearing on the list even have a Wikipedia article written about each of them. If any recording be considered as not worthy of mentioning, it could easily be removed specifically, without the need to erase all the section, as this would not be proportionate.

As a matter of good layout, I have organized the recordings as a list, but that can be changed at anytime by any editor in order to better suit the article layout as a whole, and the layout itself should not be the criteria used to deem a section irrelevant, since relevance is a matter of content, as layout is a matter of form.

About the criteria of the recordings's list being subjective or objective, since the aria is originally written for the soprano character of Almirena in Rinaldo (opera) and also soprano voice on the other Handel works where it also appears, all other arrangements of the aria, in other voices such as contralto, mezzo-soprano, countertenor, or a merely instrumental recording, are to be considered variants from the soprano original. Therefore, the list can not be considered as being of "subjective nature", since it follows a logical order of classification into soprano (as the original version) and other voices (by arrangements, adaptations), and also on the kind of recording (concert, opera/theater, audio album). Such organization can surely be improved, but should not be considered subjective in any way, and even the performers' names follow alphabetic order.

About the list being considered an "incomplete" one, an incomplete section should be improved and completed, not erased, and actually much of the most important recordings are already mentioned there, and if any other one is lacking, then it can be added on the existing list in order to become a complete list.

About the paragraph "The aria has been recorded by many artists, and a performance usually takes about five minutes", it was already present on the article before any edition made by me, and at the time it had no source. When I started the "Recordings" section, I just moved it to the recently created section, since it seemed more appropriate at that section than elsewhere.

If there are any remaining suggestions or complaints, let me know about them, so that the article might be improved. And also I would appreciate if you may make improvements of your own on the Recordings section.

Cornelius Benedictus (talk) 20:27, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Jeanambr and Cornelius Benedictus I would consider this an original synthesis compiled through less than ideal sources and making original conclusions. Some of these YouTube videos aren't necessarily "recordings" which have been released for commercial sale. Some of these are from live and/or televised concerts which haven't been made available for purchase on a CD or DVD or on a digital platform such as ITunes. So while technically it's a recorded performance, these types of performances wouldn't be included in a traditional discography. Many of these are also copyright infringements and under policy we shouldn't be linking to them as either sources or external links because the YouTube uploader doesn't have the rights to the work. (see Wikipedia:Video links and WP:RSPYT) Further, a number of the recordings by non-sopranos are being sung in the original key/ arrangement. Also, linking to contralto repertoire books that include the song in a list of rep (but without indicating a key change or arranger by name) doesn't really indicate whether or not the aria was in fact altered. In short, there is a lot of guess work being done here and I would think we would need better sources addressing this kind of content directly to draw the conclusions being made. I think all YouTube citations should be removed immediately, and only recordings verified by secondary published sources from a reliable publisher should be kept (as in print sources, and not video links). @Cornelius Benedictus Quite a lot has been written about key adaptations of well known arias such as "und voce poca fa" from The Barber of Seville and the arias from Handel's Messiah in scholarly publications. Usually this type of information can be found in scholarly sources so my suggestion would be to do some searches in google books and google scholar. Best.4meter4 (talk) 23:03, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]