Talk:L (entertainer)

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N: Please refrain from including non-verified information such as fan pairings on Biography. (In short, stop being delusional). Es2pido (talk) 17:29, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested move 16 March 2021

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed. After extended time for discussion, consensus is clear. BD2412 T 19:28, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

L (South Korean singer) → L (entertainer) – per WP:SINGERDAB, he is a singer and actor. -St3095 ^(?) 09:26, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support move to "L (South Korean entertainer)" – since all other singers are also types of entertainers. Paintspot Infez (talk) 17:49, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support as nominated. This 2019 RFC concluded that additional disambiguation is not needed if there is a primary topic among the subjects, and this L fits that criteria when compared to the others. Practice supports this, which is why we have Thriller (album), not Thriller (Michael Jackson album), Big Bang (band), not Big Bang (South Korean band), and so on. Ə XPLICIT 02:35, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Explicit: Paintspot has just pointed out that L (French singer) is also an entertainer. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:13, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Did you read my comment at all? I specifically acknowledged that the others exist. The search results simply strongly favor this particular L. That's why Michael Jackson's album is titled Thriller (album), yet we have Thriller (Cold Blood album), Thriller (Eddie and the Hot Rods album), and Thriller (Swoop album). They are not the primary topic in the realm of albums, just like the French singer L is not in the realm of singers or entertainers. Ə XPLICIT 14:26, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose we don't use (entertainer) as a dab any more except for vaudeville and drag acts. He's a singer, he's just released another single. Check the few English sources. or check Korean 엘 (가수) <-- see that, the dab is "(singer)", not (juggler) (pantomime act) (drag queen). In ictu oculi (talk)

WP:SINGERDAB specifically states: Use "(entertainer)" if the person is also well-known in other non-musical entertainment fields (e.g. Rain (entertainer)). Please stop spreading misinformation. What sister projects do is irrelevant to how we handle things on the English Wikipedia. Ə XPLICIT 14:26, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I know what it says. But I'm saying that we don't. That's something that appears to have been added in for K-Pop, can you imagine an American singer with TV episodes being (entertainer)? In ictu oculi (talk) 14:37, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

More false claims. The guideline from 2016 originally linked Madonna (entertainer) before the page was moved to Madonna as the primary topic. A 2013 RFC determined that, "the use of the term entertainer should be restricted to cases where a subject's notability across different areas of entertainment is roughly the same". This is often the case in K-pop because aspiring singers are usually trained in various fields of the entertainment industry to become all-around entertainers, and many of them advance into these areas. They rise to prominence as singers, retain that popularity when they enter new fields, and are just as notable in those fields as a result.

We do do this for American and English entertainers, like Poppy (entertainer) and KSI (entertainer). Ə XPLICIT 04:46, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom - L appears in many notable South Korean television series; he even plays lead in more recent television series. Yoshiman6464 ^♫🥚 16:19, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Singer+actor=(entertainer) per WP guidance and practice. Dohn joe (talk) 00:12, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support Kim Myung-soo, OPPOSE the current and proposed. “L” is an gimmicky attention grabbing commercial game, and will always be ambiguous, and is not serious (as in encyclopedic) and will not be enduring, and is not even yet internationally recognisable. His name is, all things desirable in a biography title. More than 7 million ghits, all him. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:34, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've never seen such a... ridiculous argument to rename an article. This essentially boils down to an WP:IDONTLIKEIT argument towards his stage name that he has had for over a decade, not to mention that this proposal violates WP:COMMONNAME policy. Ə XPLICIT 03:23, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nonsense. “L” is always ambiguous. Patently obvious, it has to be disambiguated somehow, and the current and proposed disambiguations are awkward. Some sites title with “L (Kim Myung-soo)”, completing the humorous desperation, in blindness to the obvious Kim Myung-soo. “-soo” might swap for “ Soo”. COMMONNAME? I checked, sources routing introduce him a “Kim Myung-soo” known as “L”. “Kim Myung-soo” meets the COMMONNAME definition. Recognizable, used for introduction, in reliable sources. Naming criteria. Precise, Natural. Recognisable. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:50, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As per Reference 1 "Infinite member L (Kim Myung-soo), who has been with us for the past nine years...". If not Kim Myung-soo, then only "L (Kim Myung-soo)" is acceptable. He is barely known in English language source, and in Korean he is introduced this way, and "Kim Myung-soo" is either his name, or is required for recognizability. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:21, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:NCUE, article titles are dictated by the most common name used in English-language sources, which is L. This is supported by sources like The Korea Times [1], Korea JoongAng Daily [2], The Korea Herald [3], and Billboard [4]. The alternate L (Kim Myung-soo) doesn't even attempt to follow policy (WP:QUALIFIER) or guidelines (WP:SINGERDAB, WP:STAGENAME). Nothing supports your argument that a single-letter stage name is inadequate as an article title. It is not reflected in this article's current title or in L (French singer), or others like I (singer), J (musician), J (South Korean singer), K (singer), N (singer), and whatever others exist. Ə XPLICIT 13:58, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NATURAL, which is Policy, supports Kim Myung-soo as an acceptable if not the best title. Even in English sources, and I disagree with dismissing translated native-language sources, “Kim Myung-soo” is obviously the most recognizable name, for introductory use. Sometimes, “L” is used alone on first use if the story is really about the band, and L is incidental to the story. OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, you say? Indeed, and I was tempted to start RMs to move them to their real names that match the naming criteria better. Abbreviated names do not make good titles. Short acronyms in general do not make good titles. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:55, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Where is policy does it support your notion that abbreviated names or acronyms are unacceptable for page titles? Please point to the specific text that disallows short titles. The English Wikipedia does not follow the naming conventions of native sources when English sources do not, which is why we have articles titled using English customs like Yoshihide Suga, not the native Japanese Suga Yoshihide. You really have not provided an argument other than "I don't think a short title is a good idea."

Of course a person with a stage name will be introduced by their birth name in news articles—to familiarize the reader about the subject. Belcalis Marlenis Almánzar has been introduced that way plenty of times just over the past month, but the article name is still Cardi B. There's nothing ambiguous about her stage name. Ə XPLICIT 01:45, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Cardi B is not ambiguous, is NATURAL and is COMMONNAME. What’s your point with Cardi B? —SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:40, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There are many arguments in parallel at play. The Policy argument is to prefer a WP:NATURAL WP:COMMONNAME title, and that is Kim Myung-soo. “L” is ambiguous. Every disambiguated “L” is awkward. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:24, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose as proposed, this goes against WP:PARTIALDAB. Support any of Kim Myung-soo, L (Kim Myung-soo), or L (South Korean entertainer). (t · c) buidhe 08:06, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support as proposed. After reading WP:PDAB, this title is justified, as L (entertainer) is primary over L (French singer). We can add a hatnote back to L (French singer) to deal with any possible confusion. 162.208.168.92 (talk) 18:49, 26 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.