Talk:Korçë/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

German Study shows no Greeks in Korce

Nationality map of east central and Southeast Europe 1989-1992

It shows the concentration of Greeks were in Gjirokaster and Sarande but gives no info on any Greeks in Korce.

If someone re-adds the part taken out, will they atleast bring evidence as to why?

So people simply change it because it does not fit their needs?

Here are some quotes from:

T.J. Winnifrith Badlands-Borderlands A History of Northern Epirus/Southern Albania, pg 24

"But in spite of the efforts of Greek schools and churches near Vlore, Berat and Korce, Greek speech only really exists today in the extreme south-west of Albania near Butrint and along the border as far as Kakavia, in three villages along the coast near Himare, and in Drinos valley near Gjirokaster. Even in these areas there are pockets of Albanian speech, and almost all Greek-speakers are bilingual."

Plus how does a Greek school prove minority? On top of that the source for the info is not really the best one since its actually a Greek site.

This seems to be nothing more then dilute what is shown to be a generally homogenous area for "northern Epirus" reasons. I ask a member to look at what I posted, if more is needed I will bring more info.

Tpilkati 03:36, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Well it seems Athenea has an inept ability to properly debate. On top of this uses an obviously biased stated. Stating they were Greek Orthodox deludes the public into the idea that the population was infact Greek, yet this neglects the fact that there was no Albanian Orthodoxy then and any Albanian of eastern orthodox heritage was seen as Greek. The arguement that all orthodoxy inn general is thought of as Greek, well. I wonder what Russians have to say about this but as a Albanian myself from these lands inwhich this site tries to dilute the population of, I can get rather offended by it since it was so hard for us to separate from it. Yet this is never mentioned. I wonder how Athenea knows of this large Greek population of Korce when he has yet to see an actual count. All counts so far show a clear small minority and a large vlach one. I wonder how much Albanians in here actively go around vandalizing the articles of neighboring countries, mainly that of Greece. Especially without even once discussing it. If ignorance is the issue, then maybe one needs to distance themselves from wiki Tpilkati 03:35, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

who wrote this ??? proof! korca has a large minority of greeks?! who has written this article?where did you find this, and furthermore have you seen to be mentioned albanian people that live(or lived ) in janina kostur ect....or you dout there are (werent) albanian people?????.that for me is disinformation .It is true that there are a lot of people that know greek language but do you know how many people know english french italian??? it seems there are too many "minorities".Based on this reason albanian people are minority itself!!!!!!! hence i have the right to ask which country does korca belong???ALBANIA.I hope in the future to find something written by an albanian person not a greek.FALEMINDERIT(nga nje korcar qe di te flase e greqisht por qe se ngateron me shqipen)

But on the other hand,if you visit that site ellisisland.org you can see after registering (it's a matter of 2 minites) that there were many immigrants in USA from Korce who consider thenselves as Greeks, p.e. search for the names Lazaros Spyrou,Konstantinos Giannopoulos,Michail Panon,Angeli C. Pano,Adam Panou,Anestis Ioannou,Dionisios Atanasiou,Andonios Christou etc. I am not telling that Korce or Koritsa is a greek city or that there is a great greek minority there but it is a fact that Greeks used to live there (i dont know how many Greeks living now there.I friend of mine who is part of the greek minority in Albania told me that in Korce there are only few Greeks)

Albanians in Greek Epirus before 1912 used to live mostly in Thesprotia and Konitsa.In cities like Giannena and Preveza were few.Pavlos1988 (talk) 10:37, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

I am so extremely done with greeks trying to greekishinze everything orthodox in Albania. I can accept dropull region. I can (reluctantly) accept that there are some greeks in Himara. But to say there are greeks in Korça without any census stating their correct number is utter bullshit and will be removed! Unless you have proof of this population I will remove this humiliative sentence immediately. Oh wait. You say there was a school and this is why it sugests there are greeks? Ahhaha. Same in shkodër tirana vlorë etc, where the hell are the greeks there. You, the greek pseudo-editors are no one to say the wording" it suggests that". Unless you have proof it will me immediately removed without undue delay. I feel very sorry for you but you are so deluded into this ide of northen epirus( which lucky you to get the south too😂) that you will write everything possible to make it happen. But come to visit Korça. Guess what,you wont hear a single greek there despite your deluded suggestions. This is the Republic of Albania and not Greece, Cyprus, or Greek minority zone around the world. So calm Your titts out everyone, northen epirus was utter political bullshit and the current demographic backs that.

Lastly. One of the main centers of the greek minority the other being gjirokastra?? And you go to gjirokastra page it says one of the centers of the greek minority, the other being saranda?? Now make up your mind. Which is it. Gjirokastër and sarandë or gjirokastër and korçë. You can't have it both ways. The source cited does not indicate this either, thus will be removed! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.26.41.112 (talk) 11:03, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

King & Mai are serious academics and they claim that the city is a centre of that community. They are both respected in Albanian intellectual cycles. Meet Wp:RSAlexikoua (talk) 13:19, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Ah, I see now which people you cite. Soon I am going to find stuff about southern epirus feom academics which have non-greek views and do not like as much anything greek( pretty much like you are doing with albania articles) How do you prove me this article does not show political POV? Did the guy make any census or? I know that when they say greek they mean orthodox, because before, being orthodox meant greek, and all albanians, which for god s sake were not little, are neglected as much as possible here and are all regarded as greek if they were orthodox and given that you edited so many articles you know this well. Couldn't you show some good faith like the other albanian editors do? In any case, I see, when you cite people who say there was heavy greek population in fier shkodër tirana elbasan... this means that2/3 of Albania was greek, which according to every ottoman census done since they arrived in the balkans shows otherwise. A simple google search is enough to prove that. Anyhow, with all due respect, talking to you is like talking to the wall, unless one cites academics( which for god s sake, many might have talked about greece in a superlative political way and you still cite them) you won't accept anything. I am asking you, as a regular editor of epirus( region of which, Korça is absolutely not included) do you believe in this idea of vorio-epirus and that everything else is wrong? Do you think this is a region full of greeks and should join their mother greece? This is a purely personal question, you are not obliged to answer! After you answer, I will show you something valuable :) Cheers — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.241.200.85 (talk) 16:11, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Episkopi/Piskopyie

Do we have any information about this pre-1480 settlement? Some information that existed vanished during this edit [[1]].Alexikoua (talk) 19:54, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Some information that existed was a WP:SYNTH of two different sources. – Βατο (talk) 13:54, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Sourced content restored

@Bato: Here is the link [[2]] "Moschopolis, destroyed by resentful Muslim Albanians in 1788". I suggest you should be more careful on removing citations (Schmitt was removed in the same fashion [[3]]).Alexikoua (talk) 06:56, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

@Alexikoua, you are continuously misusing sources.

With this edit you added this content:

• From 13th century it was a small settlement called Episkopi.

as a WP:SYNTH of these two sources:

• "It was an unimportant little village, named Episkopi until in 1487, when the Albanian Kodja Mirahor Ilias Bey became its administrator and founded the mosque called after him" (Taylor 1932, p.21);
• "It began as a feudal estate in the 13th century" (Britannica, "Korçë).

While with this edit, followed by another one you added this content:

• The city started to flourish when the nearby prosperous town of Moscopole was destroyed by Muslim Albanian units at 1788.

but the two sources say:

• "The last attack, by Ali Pasha's men, practically destroyed the town. Some of its commerce shifted to Gorice (Korce, Albania) and Arnavud Berat, but those towns could not make good the losses suffered by Iskopol." (Anscombe 2002, p.100);
• "...Moschopolis, destroyed by resentful Muslim Albanians in 1788" (Fleming 1999, p.36).

Those inaccurate edits were made about 10 and 5 years ago, but your recent addition of the quotes without fixing your previous errors show that you have not improved your contributions yet. You should avoid misusing sources in this way, also other editors have noticed it in various articles. If you continue with this method, administrative or community intervention will be required. – Βατο (talk) 13:54, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

The sources are quite clear. What's weird is that your remove without explanation this part [[4]] "Moschopolis, destroyed by resentful Muslim Albanians in 1788". wp:IDONTLIKEIT is quite disruptive in this case removing a top graded source (Fleming) about the subject.Alexikoua (talk) 16:50, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Well, I assume that's your way of saying thank you for providing the quote for me as well as making many other constructive edits in this and similar articles.Alexikoua (talk) 17:02, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Pardon me but since you replaced Moscopole with Iskopol with Moscopole &Voskopoje inside parenthesis, I wonder why you neglected the alternative name i.e "Moschopolis" (the most common name of the settlement according to the same source).Alexikoua (talk) 17:17, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

The part about "It was an unimportant little village, named Episkopi until in 1487" should be explicitly stated in the article, because as it is, Episkopi is mentioned only in passing and lumped together with other villages. Khirurg (talk) 18:15, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Indeed the beginning of the history section is problematic now: we are informed what happened in 1487 but all of the sudden c. 10 lines below we are surprised that there was an older settlement. That's very confusing for the reader and the corrected chronological sequence should be followed.Alexikoua (talk) 19:40, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

the corrected chronological sequence began with the first written records of the activity of Ilias Bey in the area, starting from the villages of Leshja and Vithkuq, then with the second firman that reports the name Piskopiye and with the third firman that defines the extension of the territory donated to Ilias Bey where he built his institutions and the early urban area. All the relevant information is included in the article. – Βατο (talk) 19:49, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

There was a village named Episkopi at that location in 1487. That is sourced and needs to be in the article. It sounds like you are trying to hide this form our readers. Khirurg (talk) 20:39, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

It is sourced to a 1932 publication. I'm removing it and you can add it back when you find contemporary bibliography. The bad use of bibliography continues.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:45, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

@Khirurg, I am not. Don't cast WP:ASPERSIONS. What your edits show is that you have not a sufficient knowledge of the topic, nevertheless you engage in edit warring. The only thing we know is that Piskopiye, as reported in Ottoman sources, was donated to Ilias Bey. There are not informations about what this Piskopye was, but we know from the third firman that the territories Ilias Bey gained were located between Mborje, Barç and Bulgarec. All the relevant information is properly included in the article, your edit was not an improvement. – Βατο (talk) 20:55, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Schmitt is a quite recent work and states that something already existed there. The timeline in history should be consistent.Alexikoua (talk) 20:56, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

something already existed everywhere @Alexikoua, but we have not historical data because the first mension of the area was in Ottoman documents attesting Ilias Bey activity there. – Βατο (talk) 20:59, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

We have secondary sources which confirm that on this site previously existed a another settlement. Schmitt is a modern source and there is no need to obscure this.Alexikoua (talk) 21:08, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

@Bato: Since you are a fun of primary material it appears that a settlement located in Korce is identified in a Emperial sigilum of 1080 here: [[5]].Alexikoua (talk) 21:15, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

I am not a fun of primary material, I consult them to verify if some claims by modern scholars are actually speculations, like the case of Bardylis' Dardanian affiliation by Hammond, which in some his publications is considered a historical fact, and you misused them in many articles about antiquity without a critical analysis of the subjects and without considering the more recently published material. The link you provided above reports Kurestos, whose relation with the modern town of Korçë has been rightly criticized by Calthinus. – Βατο (talk) 21:41, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

• Episkopi/Peskopi was a village on its own. As Korca grew in size, Episkopi/Peskopi merged into Korca [6]. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:45, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

That is right @Ktrimi, it is also what recently published specialized bibliography already included in the article precisely describes. – Βατο (talk) 21:52, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

@Bato: Continuously diverting the discussion in what I've did in other articles is a clear way to say that you have run out of arguments here.Alexikoua (talk) 22:11, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately, sources from Communist-era Albania are not considered reliable sources, given that they were published during a totalitarian regime. We have a high quality source that explicitly states that there was a small village called Episkopi at that location. This is very common all over the world, and nothing surprising. I don't know why you guys are so opposed to that. Khirurg (talk) 22:42, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Studime Historike is the most reliable journal of historiography in Albania and regardless of its date of publication it has received countless citations. There can be no general rule that "Communist-era publications are unreliable". Frano Prendi was a Communist archaeologist and he wrote an entire chapter in the Cambridge Ancient History series in the 1980s. Political affiliation is not an epistemological criterion. You can file a request at RSN if you object it and you have to argue why the particular author/journal isn't reliable, but you can't say "no publications by Communists".--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:31, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

It's not "no publications by Communists", it's sources published under a totaliatarian regime are acceptable. Because as you should know, there is no intellectual freedom under totalitarianism, especially under a regime as draconian as the one in Albania. Even in the physical sciences there was a lot of pseudoscience (see Lysenkoism). The situation is even worse in the humanities. And if you want to claim a source published under a totalitarian regime should be used, the WP:ONUS is for you to go to WP:RSN. Khirurg (talk) 01:42, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

@Khirurg, specialized recent sources agree with that publication. See for example:

• "Sipas fermanit të lëshuar nga Sulltan Bajezidi, me pretekstin e vjeljes së vështirë të taksave Iljaz bej Mirahori i kërkon sulltanit që në vend të fshatrave Panarit e Trebickë, që ky ia kishte dhuruar më herët, t’i jepte fshatin Peskopje afër Korçës. Fermani në fjalë urdhëron dhënien me timar të dy fshatrave dhe në këmbim të tyre dhurimin e Peskopjes, Mirahorit. Shih: po aty, fl. 73; Akti i dhurimit pasohet nga një dekret tjetër i lëshuar po në lidhje me këtë çështje ku urdhërohet përcaktimi i kufijve të fshatit Peskopje që i është dhuruar Iljaz Bej Mirahorit. Dekreti në fjalë urdhëron kadijtë e Korçës dhe Bilishtit të përcaktojnë dhe regjistrojnë kufijtë e fshatit në fjalë." (Caka 2017, p. 84)
• "About the end of the 15th century, sultan Bayazit II accorded as mulk to the first equerry and con-queror of Psamathia, Ilyaz Mirahor Evel Bey,12 seven villages13 of the Korça area, including Vithkuqi. This accord was finalized gradually through four firmans, the first of them, also related with Vithkuq, dating on 1484 (Fig. 1). In 1505 the villages of Episkopi, Boboshtica, Leshnja and Vithkuq, subjected to the kaza of Korça, were used as sources of incomes on behalf of the five institutions of vakfa of Iliaz bey." (Rembeci & Cunga 2019, pp. 105–106)

Those relevant informations are already included. – Βατο (talk) 00:45, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

That's fine. None of that conflicts with saying that until 1487 there was a village named Episkopi at that location. That information is separate from what you have posted, and is additional to it. And we have a high quality source to back, so there is no reason to exclude. Unless somehow the name of the village is the "problem". Khirurg (talk) 01:42, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

• @Bato: the subsection was very confusing, I've sort of inverted the series of events and removed the 1932 publication. AS to where Korçë started, it is still confusing for the reader because it didn't start as the expansion of one particular village, but the area has to be somehow defined. --Maleschreiber (talk) 02:24, 6 November 2020 (UTC)