Talk:Knickerbocker Base Ball Club of New York

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On 17 May 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from New York Knickerbockers to Knickerbocker Base Ball Club of New York. The result of the discussion was moved.

Untitled

So what happened to the Knickerbockers? Did they eventually disappear, or eventually evolve into a current team? Or what? --Bobson (talk) 15:30, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bob, The Knickerbockers were a private club whose members played baseball for recreation. They were the modern equivalent of a country club where members play golf or tennis. After the organization of the first professional baseball league in 1871, the National Association of Professional Base Ball Clubs, the Knickerbocker club lost its importance and eventually died out. 24.9.74.139 (talk) 00:50, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Needs more history

As suggested above, this article ends somewhat abruptly, without explaining what happened to this team. Was it lasting, or just a flash in the pan which happened to lead to modern baseball? Hiberniantears (talk) 06:50, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See above. 24.9.74.139 (talk) 00:50, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Name of Article

I would strongly suggest that the article be renamed. Using the term "New York Knickerbockers" is essentially applying modern nomenclature to a 19th-century organization. Calling the team the "New York Knickerbockers" may make the team sound like the New York Yankees, or Los Angeles Dodgers, but in reality baseball teams in the mid-19th century did not use those types of naming patters. The organization was actually called "The Knickerbocker Base Ball Club of New York." In the amateur standing, the team was simply listed as "Knickerbocker." Besides, although few people on Wikipedia recognize it, the "New York Knickerbockers" is actually the name of a current NBA basketball team. The "New York Knicks" is just a shortened version of that name. (I checked with the Knicks office, and they informed me that the team is still officially named the "Knickerbockers." 24.9.74.139 (talk) 00:57, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 08 November 2013

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved.(non-admin closure) Hot Stop talk-contribs 16:57, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

New York Knickerbockers → Knickerbocker Base Ball Club of New York – This club is only informally called the "New York Knickerbockers", which is the ~~formal~~ name of the actual New York Knicks. Britannica, in its coverage of baseball history, says "New York Knickerbocker Base Ball Club". When I do a plain Google search for "New York Knickerbockers", the first result is about tonight's game. The title New York Knickerbockers ought to redirect to the article on the basketball team. Srnec (talk) 19:25, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Oppose. Most people looking for the basketball team will use "Knicks"; the hatnote covers anyone else. The proposed title for this article is too lengthy; it's unlikely the full name was ever in common use. Powers ^T 00:37, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose WP:COMMONNAME. The basketball team article is New York Knicks also based on Common Name. Seems like an answer to a problem that doesn't exist.--JOJ ^Hutton 00:52, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Let me spell the problem out for you. The current setup implies that (i) the baseball club was called the "New York Knickerbockers" in a manner similar to how modern MLB teams are named, which is false, and (ii) that the primary meaning of the term "New York Knickerbockers" is other than the currently existing NBA team most commonly called the "Knicks" for short, which is also false. Srnec (talk) 12:25, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  - Well then let me spell it out for you then. WP:COMMONNAME says that the article should be titled using the most common name used in reliable sources, not always the official name of the subject. The common name is the New York Knickerbockers. The common name of the basketball is team is the New York Knicks.--JOJ ^Hutton 16:17, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    - You've got a spelling error. If the most common name for the baseball club—which I never brought up—is "New York Knickerbockers", that's not enough, since the most common meaning of "New York Knickerbockers" is not the baseball club; it's the basketball team. If the most common name of the basketball team is "New York Knicks"—of course it is—that does not preclude the most common meaning of "New York Knickerbockers" from also being the basketball team. Srnec (talk) 17:17, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support. Primary topic for the term "New York Knickerbockers" is the basketball team. Red Slash 05:12, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I think that nearly every person alive today calls the basketball team the "New York Knicks". A good reason for that is that their corporate name is "New York Knicks, Inc".citation here They may be sometimes referred to as the Knickerbockers, and may have been named as an homage to the baseball club, but are not actually the same name, just Knicks. The New York Mets on the other hand would fall under the CommonName provision (The New York Metropolitan Baseball Club, Inc), as opposed to the New York Metropolitans of the 1800s.Neonblak ^talk - 13:31, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Nearly every person alive does indeed prefer "Knicks", but that is irrelevant to the proposal. The term New York Knickerbockers is still more likely to refer to the basketball club than the baseball one. I have struck "formal" from the proposal, although the name "Knickerbockers" is treated by the team as the full form of the nickname. Nobody is proposing to move the article on the Knicks, only to move the hatnote. Srnec (talk) 19:23, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My point wasn't irrelevant, the Knicks are the NBA team, the Knickerbockers are the old baseball club, and there is no need to "fix" a problem that doesn't exist. My opinion still stands.Neonblak ^talk - 22:49, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 17 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 05:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New York Knickerbockers → Knickerbocker Base Ball Club of New York – Current name is anachronistic and incorrect, and goes against WP:COMMONNAME. Almost all sources refer to them as the "Knickerbocker Base Ball Club of New York". According to Bruce Markusen in his Great Courses lecture series, the (city name) (team name) nomenclature for old teams was almost never used. Sources that use the "Knickerbocker Base Ball Club of New York" include:

The previous reasons for opposition have to do with the New York Knicks and whatever, but that is not what's important. What's more important is that the current name used in the article is plain wrong. If that title is too long, I would remove the “of New York” part. -1ctinus📝🗨 00:25, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Support for historically accurate titling of this important team. The Club and its founder pioneered many baseball firsts, and set the stage for later major league and baseball formats. Such a historically relevant team should have the accurate name provided for, and well-proven, in the nomination. A redirect from the present title would work for searching. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:37, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support and redirect the current title to the NBA team. Srnec (talk) 13:38, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.