Talk:Kirovabad pogrom

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Kirovabad casualties

I think we should remove that big clump from Andrei Sakharov memoirs. The Russian source is not available anyway. I think we should add a sentence after Sakharov deaths he thought had happened (At the time, Soviet human rights activist Andrei Sakharov, in Massachusetts during the unrest, said he had received reports from the Soviet Union that more than 130 Armenians were killed and more than 200 wounded in the violence) and adding a sentence after saying something like: "Although the figures are said to have been mixed up with the amount of injuries that occurred". We can use this source since the other one is not online. Soviets Deny Sakharov`s Death Toll Nocturnal781 (talk) 06:41, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We can add this source, of course, but I see no point in removing Sakharov. We can move the quote to the references, but it is better to keep it in the article. I also added a valid link to Sakharov's memoir. Grandmaster 10:30, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, I was concerned kinda about the reference but seeing you found a new one is better now. Nocturnal781 (talk) 07:24, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Death Toll

The deaths in Kirovabad, I added a source thats third party and reliable. No Armenian deaths is not true as New York times even mentions several separate occasions where Armenians were killed in the violence. Here is a report during the pogroms, "Gennady I. Gerasimov, the Soviet Foreign Ministry's chief spokesman, said that, while there had been serious Azerbaijani attacks on Armenians, the death toll at Kirovabad stood at six. "There have been deaths, there are victims, but there has been no massacre as is being alleged" Also see; Also, three Azerbaijanis were shot and killed by troops in two separate incidents Friday night in Kirovabad, according to Soviet officials. An Armenian also died in one of the incidents. and.. In the other incident, an elderly Armenian man and a relative were run down while walking along the street in Kirovabad by a car driven by Azerbaijanis, an official Armenian government spokesman said in Moscow. The older man was killed and the other injured. Patrolling soldiers then opened fire on the car, killing one Azerbaijani and wounding a second. mentioning or saying no Armenians died is not accurate. See New York times article for which I quoted.[1] Nocturnal781 (talk) 08:01, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This puts the death toll at 7. 1 Armenian, 3 Azerbaijanis, and 3 Soviet soldiers. Also, why did you delete interview of KGB officers? They said that pogroms were prevented:

- Признаться, больше опасений было за Кировабад. Но там ситуацию удержали наши солдатики. Бедные, они столько натерпелись! Ведь у них даже бронежилетов не было. В солдат бросали не только камни, но порой и гранаты. И грузовик на них направляли. Вместе с ними толпу останавливали, кстати, и азербайджанцы. Так, начальник горотдела КГБ Азербайджана Рахман Микаилов даже пинками и ударами "уговаривал" земляков не делать глупостей. А его обзывали предателем. Наконец Микаилов поднял гарнизон солдат и, по сути, предотвратил побоище и погромы.

They actually said that there was no pogrom in Kirovabad, so even the name of the article is not accurate. There were some incidents, but no mass killings or anything of the sort. Grandmaster 10:43, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You are both seriously claiming a spokesman from the Soviet Foreign Ministry as a "neutral source"? Soviet sources at this time were always trying to diminish the size and significance of the events, and overplay the Soviet Union's ability to control them. The only neutral source so far is Yuri Rost, and his figure is 40 deaths. I also note the weasil-sounding "in 1990 Yuri Rost mentions", which seems to imply that he was just some later writer making a passing mention. 1990 was the date of the publication of the book - he was a journalist on the ground in the Caucasus as the events took place. Meowy 18:09, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yuri Rost is just as reliable as Sakharov was. He did not conduct an investigation, was not there in person, so he merely retold rumors he heard from others. If anything, the Soviet officials are more reliable for a simple reason that they had an access to the information. I would trust more to someone like HRW, who always did an in depth analysis of such events and are known for their impartiality, but they do not make any mention of Kirovabad, probably because nothing serious happened there. HRW only mentions anti-Armenian riots [2], but not pogroms, and makes no mention of any casualties. Grandmaster 19:44, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Grandmaster before you said there were no civilian casualties, so I was using those references to show you that there were, those are not the complete figures as the violence was erupting those were reports at the time. Thats what I was trying to show you.Nocturnal781 (talk) 00:32, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But I see no reliable source saying anything about massive casualties. LA Times article only mentions 1 Armenian death. And then even Sakharov admits that there were no numerous casualties among the Armenian population, which is in line with what KGB officers said. HRW mentions riots, but no casualties. Memorial also makes no mention of Kirovabad. I don't think that the leading human rights defenders would make no mention if a mass pogrom actually took place in this city. Grandmaster 09:15, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Another NYT article, which discounts the claims of high death toll:

Unconfirmed reports have placed the number of casualties much higher, with as many as 130 Armenians killed in clashes with Azerbaijanis in the Azerbaijani city of Kirovabad. That figure was cited in a statement today by the Soviet human rights campaigner Andrei D. Sakharov, who is visiting the United States.

Higher Figures Discounted

But official and unofficial informants in the two republics who have provided reliable reports during the last nine months of unrest discounted the higher figures, saying they were based on second- and third-hand accounts.

As we know now, Sakharov himself admitted that his figure was incorrect. Grandmaster 09:37, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there was "massive" casualties honestly but the figure right now seems kind of low. Soviet leaders tried to hush up certain pogroms, so it wouldn't cause mass hysteria among civilian populations. For example, this Armenian source says 18 were killed, we can mention 18 Armenians killed, with accordance to the Armenian source. [3] Here is a third party source saying at least ten have died. [4] Here is another saying 10-12 died, [5]. 8 people killed according to LA times, [6], this concluding that deaths were around 10-18. Nocturnal781 (talk) 07:07, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Armenian source is not reliable, it is not third party, and other sources do not say that all the dead were Armenian. The estimate of 10-12 dead included all casualties in recent events in Kirovabad and Armenia. That leaves only Rost with his estimate, who also do not say that all 40 were Armenian. According to him, a one third of those 40 were Azeris, so he has no concrete figure. I don't think we can actually include any concrete figure for Armenian casualties, other than those released by the Soviet government. Grandmaster 23:32, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Several news sources put the number to nearly a dozen at the time; and Yuri Rost mentioned 40 deaths. A death toll range from 10-40 seems best for now. Nocturnal781 (talk) 07:56, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think any of those sources are reliable, because the source of their information is unknown. They are of the same value as Sakharov, who took his figures from rumors. HRW and others say nothing about Kirovabad, which shows that nothing serious happened there. Otherwise they would have definitely made a specific mention of it. Grandmaster 23:03, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I checked the source for Rost, and it is simply not there. It is taken not directly from Rost, but claimed to be mentioned in the article "Etiology and Sequelae of the Armenian Genocide" by Richard G. Hovannisian. However Hovannisian mentions Kirovabad only once, on this page: [7] He makes no mention of any deaths in Kirovabad, so I'm removing Rost until a proper qoutation is provided. Grandmaster 00:04, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There's some mistake with referencing, which is why reference to Rost leads to Hovanissian, but I could not find any mention of casualties in the book by Rost either. [8] He only wrote on page 82, which is claimed to contain the info about casualties:

Attacks on Armenians and their homes became more numerous. There were attempts on the lives of Azerbaijanis. There were fatalities. Martial law was declared in Kirovabad and Nakhichevan. Troops were put on active service alert.

This source was included by a banned user years ago, and no one bothered to check. So it appears that the reference is inaccurate, and Rost did not provide any figures for Armenian casualties. Grandmaster 00:16, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]