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Archive 1

Page move

This page should be moved from Quemoy to Kinmen (81600 vs 220,000 on google). Quemoy is an outdated name for Kinmen. Kinmen is now used by the government, in tourist brochures, and elsewhere. --Jiang 05:41, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I'm getting slightly different numbers from Google – 303,000 for "Kinmen" vs. 105,000 for "Quemoy" (and 41,100 for "Jinmen") – but the qualitative conclusion is the same. --MarkSweep✍ 12:07, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

I subtracted "wikipedia" so our own articles would not skew the count --Jiang 16:28, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

I search for English pages only.. it gives 69 300 hits for Quemoy, 72 200 for Kinmen, 33 200 for Jinmen, 5 590 for Chinmen, and 3 910 for Chin-men. "Quemoy -Wikipedia -Kinmen" gives 72 000, whereas "Kinmen -Wikipedia -Quemoy" gives 68 700. I'd prefer to keep it as it is, since the difference is not that large. — Instantnood 10:32, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

I really don't see a reason for *not* moving here. Exclusing non-English sites means exclusing Taiwan-based websites. The government uses Kinmen. --Jiang 21:13, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

"Quemoy -Wikipedia -Kinmen site:gov.tw", English pages only, gives 18 hits. The same search in all languages gives 119 hits, most are European languages other than English. "Kinmen -Wikipedia -Quemoy site:gov.tw" in all languages gives 25 000 hits, many are Chinese ones (15 800).
"Kinmen -Wikipedia -Quemoy site:gov.tw", English pages only, gives 6 110 hits. By comparing 18 and 6 110, with 72 000 and 68 700 above, we can see the figures of English-language pages all over the Internet in popular usage, and by the government itself. — Instantnood 06:41, September 11, 2005 (UTC)
More interestingly, "Quemoy -Wikipedia -Kinmen site:tw", English only, gives 125, and "Kinmen -Wikipedia -Quemoy site:tw" gives 24 900. Compare this with 72 000 and 68 700, we can see the difference of choice between pages under the .tw country domain and those outside of the country domain. — Instantnood 06:48, September 11, 2005 (UTC) (modified 12:40, 30 September 2005 (UTC))

Well, on my personal website I use Hanyu pinyin exclusively -- smarter that whatever nutcase in the presidential palace says. Jidanni 05:04, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Should the page be now renamed to Chinmen or Jinmen, to reflect the correct pronunciation of the city's name? --Atitarev (talk) 04:57, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Page move unwarranted. Kinmen is the official name. There are a variety of Romanizations. 220.132.250.244 (talk) 03:34, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
This is not so much about the romanisation but also endonym vs exonym. Happy to use the Wade-Giles if there is a general agreement. "Kinmen" is based on the Taiwanese dialect pronunciation, Jinmen/Chinmen on the standard Mandarin pronunciation. The latter is now used in encyclopedias (Britannica) and official maps. "Jinmen" (tonyong pinyin and hanyu pinyin) and "Chinmen" (Wade-Giles) are the 2 different romanisations of the same pronunciation. Mandarin is much more in use than Taiwanese in Taiwan. --Atitarev (talk) 05:14, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
The official name is Kinmen; that makes it an endonym in my book... If EB uses Wade-Giles then again they are imposing the exonym... as for "Mandarin is much more in use than Taiwanese in Taiwan" well, where do you live? 220.132.250.244 (talk) 12:02, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
From Languages of Taiwan, a well-know fact:

A large majority of people on Taiwan speak Standard Mandarin, which has been the only officially sanctioned medium of instruction in the schools for more than four decades.

No, I don't live in Taiwan. I have no idea about you, you are not even signed in! :)
An endonym is a native name. The native formal name is 進門 Jīnmén (here the romanisation is just to show how it is pronounced formally in standard Mandarin). "Kinmen" is the current English exonym (name in the target language) based on the dialectal name Kim-mn̂g. --Atitarev (talk) 13:48, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
You need to fire your Chinese teacher. It's 金門 not 進門. That would be "Golden gate" or "Golden door" to you. And since we can't name the article 金門, we should follow the current government usage. You are making things far more complicated than they should be. 220.132.250.244 (talk) 12:05, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
It was an honest mistake, my fault, not my teacher's. ;) I know the characters for Kinmen/Jinmen but when I typed accidentally selected wrong characters. No over-complication, I prefer Qingdao over Tsindao, Livorno over Leghorn. --Atitarev (talk) 15:28, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

There is now not even a mention of Quemoy on this page, but there is still a redirect. Surely it deserves at least a mention on the page? Fmph (talk) 08:51, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Japanese occupation

Were Quemoy, Matsu and other ROC's islands on the coast of PRC's Fujian Province, occupied by Japan during the Second World War? — Instantnood 20:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Quemoy and Matsu were occupied from 1937 onwards. -- ran (talk) 07:22, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

so? japan also occupied a large amount of China, kinmen is a part of china occupied

history

Kinmen, until the late 80's/early 90's, had a very heavy military presence. the island was essentially a fortress and owned by the ROC army, which allocated six divisions to the Kinmen defense command. due to its close proximity to mainland (on a good day one can easily swim across), controlling the island was very important to the ROC government, psychologically and militarily. Mct mht (talk) 23:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Map

I don't know whether the map is highlighted correctly. There are three pink/red squares, but only one of them is definitely part of Kinmen. I know that Kinmen has 12 islands (actually 15, I think, but three are administered by the PTC), but i don't think any of them aare as far north as the northernmost of the red squares. Any takers on this question? If no one can *prove* the squares are accurately placed, I'll alter the image accordingly. 163.28.49.5 (talk) 14:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I suppose you're right. I've changed the map into a better one, I think.Guss2 (talk) 13:00, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Requested move: Kinmen → Quemoy

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. While the trend certainly looks like "Kinmen" will surpass "Quemoy" in common usage sometime in the near future, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. The finding that "Quemoy" is more common is surprising to me, personally, because I lived in Taiwan for a number of years, where the usage is overwhelmingly "Kinmen". However, this seems not to be true yet on a worldwide basis. Once it IS true, the article should reside at "Kinmen". Until such time, however, common usage dictates "Quemoy". Aervanath (talk) 19:02, 6 December 2011 (UTC)


Kinmen → Quemoy – One might well ask why a tiny island in the Taiwan Strait has an English-language common name. The reason for this is that the phrase "Quemoy and Matsu" was extremely prominent in the 1960 U.S. presidential election. (There were so few policy differences between Kennedy and Nixon that only subject they could debate was these two islands, or at least that was the joke.) This ngram shows both the spike in usage associated with the election, as well as the fact that "Quemoy" was and remains the WP:COMMONNAME for this island. ("Jinmen" is also on the graph as it is the pinyin spelling, but I should add that this term has various other meanings.) "Quemoy" is certainly the more familiar term in the United States, according to Google Insights. Merriam-Webster's geographical dictionary, recommended by the Chicago Manual of Style as the source on these matters, gives the name as "Quemoy." Britannica gives the name as "Quemoy Island". See also China Post and The Guardian. Kauffner (talk) 01:31, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Just a note about the China Post citation. Using the paper's own search,[1] since 1 Jan 2000, "Kinmen" has appeared 223 times while "Quemoy" has been only used 6 times.
  • Comment The BBC, The New York Times, and The Wall Street Journal are all using Kinmen, while The Washington Post uses Quemoy. (Search for the other names at the links to see that they are less prevalent).--Wikimedes (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:35, 18 November 2011 (UTC).
  • Oppose. Kinmen is now the common name and Quemoy is gradually falling out of favor. Since this is matter of romanization, we use what is presently favored, not what was favored 40 years ago. (compare Peking, Canton, Amoy, etc.) --Jiang (talk) 08:02, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
    Did you look at this ngram or Insights? From the bar graph it looks like Americans are Googling for "Quemoy" four or five times more often than "Kinmen", even today. The 1960 election had the first televised presidential debates and they made a big impression. This explains how the name of this island became a household word. Kauffner (talk) 09:00, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
    • First, this is not an American topic, so the name should be what is most prevalent worldwide, rather than what is most prevalent among Americans. Second, the search should be conducted to bias the most recent sources. Once 2005-present is used as a date range, Kinmen becomes more prevalent as a search term than Quemoy: [7]. This Wikipedia article was originally placed at Quemoy and moved to Kinmen in the middle of the decade.--Jiang (talk) 10:37, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
It is only in Taiwan that anyone Googles for "Kinmen". Unless Taiwanese English counts an WP:ENGVAR I would suggest going with Merriam Webster, which the Chicago Manual of Style recognizes as the authority on these matters. Kauffner (talk) 16:55, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Not true. See links to the BBC, The New York Times, and the Wall Street Journal above, as well as the designation used in the WTO. We are not the Chicago Manual of Style and do not use a dictionary to determine common names.--Jiang (talk) 02:37, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Support. The only advantage Kinmen would have over the common name Quemoy would be if it were a systematic romanization of Standard Chinese, but since Jinmen has that distinction, Quemoy is more suitable as a name that native English speakers would recognize. Quigley (talk) 18:27, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
    • I don't see the evidence here that Quemoy is clearly more common than Kinmen. The searches done above are systemically flawed. We take the common name as it is now, not what the common name was over the past century. Otherwise, People's Republic of China should not have been moved to China but to Communist China since that was the prevalent term in English for a good chunk of the 20th century.--Jiang (talk) 12:14, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Quemoy vs. Kinmen

The subject of the opening sentence should correspond with the title, according to WP:LEAD. Merriam-Webster gives "Quemoy" with "Jinmen" the only variant. Britannica says, "Quemoy Chinese (Wade-Giles) Chin-men Tao or (Pinyin) Jinmen Dao, also called Kinmen". So "Kinmen" is presented as a No. 4 also ran possibility. In short, I think we can make it "Quemoy" throughout the article. Kauffner (talk) 06:49, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Please authoritative source, rename to Kinmen

  • Information about foreign geographic feature names can be obtained from the GEOnet Names Server (GNS), developed and maintained by the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA). The GNS database is the official repository of foreign place-name decisions approved by the U.S. Board on Geographic Names.
  • http://geonames.nga.mil/ggmagaz/
  • That is a genuinely authoritative source. Google is fine for collecting and (very relevantly, to the above discussion) counting freshman term papers about events that happened in the 1950s, and Merriam Webster is fine for conventional names (see below), but authoritative they are not.
  • The BGN Approved local official name is Jinmen Dao. That's spelled J-I-N-M-E-N. Quemoy is listed as a "conventional name", which is further defined as "A commonly-used English name approved by the U.S. Board on geographic names (BGN) in addition to, or in lieu of, [my emphasis] a BGN-approved local official name or names."
  • Note that "Dao" means simply "island".
  • Note that the island's government calls itself Kinmen. Kinmen county government
  • Note that none of the above use "Quemoy"
  • Gee, if it were me, I'd let them name themselves first (go with "Kinmen"). If I couldn't bear to give them permission to name themselves, I'd go with the BGN (Jinmen). By no means would I let Google sit at the same table in terms of authoritativeness.
  • –OneLeafKnowsAutumn (talk) 14:19, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
A genuinely authoritative source.....like the Kinmen County Website? The BGN approves "Xianggang" for Hong Kong, "Thành Phố Hồ Chí Minh" for Saigon, "Athína" for Athens, and "Warszawa" for Warsaw. I don't know who they are approving names for, but obviously not for use by English-speaking humans. Kauffner (talk) 16:17, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
  • The Kinmen County website is indeed authoritative, since it is their name. They are in turn following the Romanization that the government of Taiwan uses. Is the government of Taiwan not an authoritative source on the Romanization of their own place name? I find it difficult to imagine that you are defending Google and Merriam Webster as superior sources. [Searching the websites of the ROC is instructive, as forex in that the uses of Quemoy are on non-English pages, while English language pages give it is "Kinmen"... here's one source that is indicative: http://www.gio.gov.tw/taiwan-website/5-gp/yearbook/01Geography.pdf ]. –OneLeafKnowsAutumn (talk) 23:33, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
  • You've gone from proposing the PRC spelling to insisting on the authority of the Taiwanese government, which is certainly quite a trip. But, sure, the ROC Yearbook is an authoritative source. So are Merriam-Webster, Britannica, and BGN's conventional names. Merriam-Webster's Geographical Dictionary is the source recommended by the Chicago Manual of Style. Readers in the U.S. are looking for "Quemoy" far more often than they are for "Kinmen" or "Jinmen".[8] BTW, Quemoy became a household word because of its use as a hypothetical in the Kennedy/Nixon debates. So its fame is only indirectly a result of the Taiwan Straits crisis. Kauffner (talk) 03:17, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Your logic is backwards and even destructive. You say that more people are searching for "Quemoy". However, renaming it in that way disseminates incorrect information even farther. Should we go back to calling Beijing "Peking", then? Meanwhile, I have not made any sort of a "trip" at all. I have not moved or changed in any way. I continue to state that I think the Republic of China should have first say on the Romanization of its own territory (i.e., "Kinmen"). [Redirects can be very educational] If you are unwilling to let the democratic government there speak for itself, I suggest that the BGN's "Jinmen" is a poor second choice. Quemoy is not even an option. –OneLeafKnowsAutumn (talk) 04:11, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Requested move: Quemoy --> Kinmen

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Kinmen, essentially this discussion developed sufficient local consensus to overturn move made in Dec 2011. Mike Cline (talk) 15:20, 23 January 2012 (UTC)


Quemoy → Kinmen –

  • Summary of what I have said above, but with new points:
At Talk:Quemoy a recent poll moved the article from "Kinmen" to "Quemoy". The poll derived consensus based on the !votes of two (and only two) editors. The initial arguments were based on Google hits, one (cherry picked, see below) Taiwanese newspaper, and Merriam Webster dictionary. A later argument referenced Wikipedia page views as a deciding factor as well. The deciding admin said that Quemoy is "more popular" than Kinmen.
  1. This claim about raw count equaling "popularity" is deeply flawed for three reasons:
    1. First, Google is an inappropriate tool in this case, for two reasons:
      1. As I said on Talk:Quemoy, "Google is fine for collecting and (very relevantly, to this discussion) counting freshman term papers about events that happened in the 1950]]s (here meaning the First Taiwan Strait Crisis and " (during those events, "Quemoy" was definitely the preferred Romanization, but that has changed). Google ghits overcount usage due to its inclusion of historical accounts that use an outdated name, weakening the claim that ghits should determine "popularity" and in turn "current usage".
      2. "Quemoy" does seem to be the standard spelling in some other languages that use Roman letters (e.g. Spanish, etc.)... but we are the English Wikipedia. Ghits overcount for this reason as well.
    2. In terms of raw count, old usage outweighs new usage for quite some time. For example, if we had had Google at the time when we switched from "Peking" to "Beijing", then "Peking" would outweigh "Beijing" by a huge factor.
    3. I just reject the reasoning outright, to be honest. I think that if the Republic of China uses the "Kinmen" spelling as its first choice on all of its official documents, that trumps popularity even if "Quemoy" is more popular (and I dispute the assertion that it is more popular). Even more to the point, I think this argument trumps all others: Taiwan's government documents use "Kinmen". Taiwan's Government Information Office uses "Kinmen" example. The Kinmen county government uses "Kinmen". Etc.
  2. As for Merriam Webster dictionary and other sources, various sources give various usages. Did we cherry pick our sources? See forex comment above (copy/paste):" The BBC, The New York Times, and The Wall Street Journal are all using Kinmen, while The Washington Post uses Quemoy." Did we cherry pick our sources in this argument?
  3. The argument that "Quemoy has more hits on Wikipedia" is even more deeply flawed. Disseminating incorrect usage is a disservice to our readers. Redirects can be very educational.
There are other arguments. There is a reference to a Taiwanese newspaper, apparently using it to determine usage in Taiwan. But the English-language newspapers in Taiwan deliberately differ in their spelling/usage as much as possible, for political reasons. The argument links China Post, but Taipei Times and Taiwan News both use "Kinmen" exclusively [It seems the Wikipedian cherry-picked his newspaper links]. Moreover, the Kinmen newspaper (Kinmen Daily News) uses "Kinmen" example. Etc. –OneLeafKnowsAutumn (talk) 08:30, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Support as nominator (see above) –OneLeafKnowsAutumn (talk) 07:26, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support -- This is a question of the correct transliteration of a Chinese name. Since the islands are a possession of Taiwan, we should use the spelling preferred by that country, not one preferred by PRC or an archaic one. What may be found in WP is a non-starter, because the present WP spelling is likely to result from that of this article. Peterkingiron (talk) 12:39, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Support - The evidence provided on this page at best suggests that there is no reason to favor either Kinmen or Quemoy as article titles. Both are commonly used and separately prevalent in different contexts (i.e. historical vs. geographical). There is no good reason to bias books on 20th century history or American newspapers from the 1960s over present-day newspapers and travel guides (two likely places where out readers would come across this topic). Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, but the article titles policy states to use "common sense" in favoring more recent usage when a name change of an entity or organization has occurred. By using Kinmen, we are not creating the "unverifiable speculation" as claimed above, since the increasing prevalence of the transliteration Kinmen over the transliteration Quemoy is well supported by the evidence and not mere speculation; instead we are merely favoring one of two equally viable alternatives. --Jiang (talk) 13:21, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment. I get 4,130 post-1990 English-language Google Book hits for Kinmen island, 8,100 for Quemoy island. The most authoritative source for the English-language spellings of geographical names is Merriam-Webster's geographical dictionary, which gives "Quemoy". GeoNames also gives "Quemoy" as its "conventional" (meaning English-language) spelling. At least in the U.S., far more readers are looking for "Quemoy" than for "Kinmen", according to Google Insights. The trend all over the world is to rename minor geography according to local convention. But Quemoy is in a different category because this name became quite familiar to the American public as a result of the Nixon/Kennedy debates in 1960. Kauffner (talk) 16:40, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
  • First, no one calls it "Kinmen island" or "Quemoy island". Any such phrasing should be purged from this site. Kinmen/Quemoy refers to multiple islands. Second, this is cherry picking. Where in policy does it say that for geographical names the specific and limited sources are more authoritative than newspapers and travel guides? --Jiang (talk) 02:12, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
  • I did not search for the phrase "Kinmen island", but for Kinmen AND island. If you prefer no screening, here is an ngram. As far as travel guides go, here is what WP:NCGN has to say: "When considering a source in determining English usage, remember the purpose of the source. When a guidebook or roadmap written in English shows an autobahn between München and Nürnberg, it is attesting to local usage, because that is what the signs on the autobahn will say; Munich and Nuremberg are still the English names. Similarly, a town's own website may well attest to an official name, even when this differs from local usage and widespread English usage." Kauffner (talk) 05:10, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
  • You haven't addressed why we should put give more weight to books written in the mid-20th century over widely circulated newspapers such as the New York Times and Wall Street Journal. It would be interesting to see when it was that these publications switched over from Quemoy to Kinmen. The guidebook note you cited is aimed at languages like German that use Roman characters and thus can be incorporated into English texts; Taiwan uses Chinese characters - anything in Roman characters is aimed to reflect English, not Chinese usage. see New Taipei as example of English language dominance in Taiwan. Whether Lonely Planet used Kinmen, Jinmen, Chin-men, or Quemoy would have exactly no practical effect on its efficacy as a guidebook as the locals do not use English as a working language.--Jiang (talk) 05:42, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Books in the 20th century? Kauffner's search was limited to post-1990 books. --Xiaopo (Talk) 03:47, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose. As Peterkingiron says, "this is a question of the correct transliteration of a Chinese name". However, he is mistaken that Kinmen is the correct transliteration. "Kinmen" is the Chinese Postal Map Romanization, ironically the same archaic system that produced "Pekin". What is the correct transliteration of 金門 then? It's "Jinmen", the second choice of Britannica behind Quemoy, a spelling both derived not from the Mandarin but from a truly native dialect, and one long known to English speakers through the Nixon-Kennedy debates. What else is Quemoy but the most common name used in books, atlases, and searches from English-speaking countries! Jinmen uses the standard system of transliterating Chinese, which was indeed invented by the PRC government but which is official in Taiwan also. Jinmen, not Kinmen, is the true second choice to Quemoy, if we wanted to "educate" or "be correct". As OneLeafKnowsAutumn says, some Taiwanese newspapers may purposefully use archaic unsystematic spellings (e.g. Kinmen) in order to protest the Taiwanese government's move to what was once exclusively a PRC transliteration system. However, Wikipedia should not play these petty political games. To sum up:
  1. Kinmen is not the well-established name known to English speakers: that is Quemoy.
  2. Kinmen is not a genuinely local name derived from islanders' spoken dialect: that is Quemoy.
    Comment: Sorry for interrupting Shrigley's remarks, but you'll have a hard time establishing that without WP:OR. Do locals use the word "Quemoy" when speaking among themselves? [See my WP:OR below; Shrigley's remark is inaccurate]. As Jiang said, locals are nearly universally bilingual in Min Nan and Mandarin. Code-switching issues arise, as well as register, etc. It's a deep, dark hole you're going into there – even assuming we want to follow a transliteration of Min Nan pronunciation. But see below, this whole thing may be politicized along pro-union with China lines. –OneLeafKnowsAutumn (talk) 03:43, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
  3. Kinmen is not what native English-speaking people write or search for: that is Quemoy.
  4. Kinmen is not the correct transliteration of the Chinese characters: that is Jinmen.
  • I am beginning to wonder whether this issue brings out politically polarized positions in the China-Taiwan spat. Do people from one side of the issue of unification with China prefer "Quemoy"? The differences in Taiwanese newspapers spellings make it an extremely strong possibility. In any event, we should follow the usage of the Republic of China, as do in fact many newspapers of record such as The New York Times, and The Wall Street Journal. Who are we to argue with the ROC, The NYT and the WSJ collectively? Mmmm, even the US Department of State prefers Kinmen –OneLeafKnowsAutumn (talk) 03:12, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
  • "Kinmen" was used 7 times by the New York Times in the last 12 months, Quemoy once. WSJ has 6 mentions of "Kinmen" in the last two years, 2 for Quemoy. Why base a decision on such a tenuous database when we can use book result numbers that are far more firmly established? Kauffner (talk) 07:38, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
  • The mentions in widely circulated newspapers, as opposed to books published in the 1960s, reflects current usage. You would be more convincing by comparing the 12 mentions in the NYT with 12 books published in 2011, not a range of books published from the year 1950. Your set of data would justify moving Beijing to Peking and Mao Zedong to Mao Tse-tung. If you can limit your search to the years 2006-2011, then we're talking! If this were still 2002 instead of 2012 then perhaps I would be supporting Quemoy instead of Kinmen. Looking at publications published before the recent decade is misleading.--Jiang (talk) 20:04, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
  • There were are a lot more than 12 books published in 2011 that mentioned "Quemoy". To be exact, there were 449 76 (deghosted) such books. Of course, we must considered ourselves fortunate that nothing newsworthy has happened on the island in recent years. Kauffner (talk) 01:58, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
  • You keep throwing out numbers, but you aren't actually looking at the books you've linked as support for your position. The overwhelming majority of them are explicitly discussing the Taiwan Straits Crises of the 1950s (as I have said again and again), when Kinmen was indeed known as Quemoy. The one or two little exceptions that I saw are looking far, far, far from being authoritative, high quality sources. Please don't make me list and examine every single one of those sources. Please. I beg you. Please look at them closely yourself, and admit that what I've said is true. –OneLeafKnowsAutumn (talk) 08:56, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Here lies the systemic bias of your analysis. Every single one of the mentions of "Quemoy" on google books refer to events in the 1950s and 1960s. Isn't the opening of the three links quite a newsworthy event? The Taiwan Strait crisis receives exactly two sentences worth of coverage in this article. See my comment above: we should be using Kinmen vs. Quemoy in different contexts, lest Wikipedia starts to sound like it was written in a 1960s time warp.--Jiang (talk) 22:09, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
  • If you have in fact found a solitary cite from a WP:RS that uses "Quemoy" and does so outside of the context of the Straits Crises of the 1950s, then I congratulate you. However, the weight of evidence that I have repeatedly cited (the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, The US Department of State, The World Trade Organization, Library of Congress – Federal Research Division etc. speaks in favor of "Kinmen". –OneLeafKnowsAutumn (talk) 01:35, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Kinmen is not exactly a hot news item... the point is that when it is mentioned, it is "kinmen", unless the reference is a historical one regarding the Straits Crises of the 1950s... Speaking of which, did you look at those books you are citing as evidence for "Quemoy"? They're all discussions of the crisis... we could play dueling books – mine is by the World Trade Organization: [http://www.amazon.com/Accession-Territory-Establishing-Organization-Instruments/dp/0521788919/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1325336033&sr=1-7 Protocol on the Accession of the Separate Customs Territory of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen and Matsu to the Marrakesh Agreement Establishing the World ...] (World Trade Organization Legal Instruments) –OneLeafKnowsAutumn (talk) 13:01, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
    • I believe that the entirety of your post [OneLeaf says: that post is now far above this spot, sorry for the interruptions], except for the citation to Britannica, is mistaken and false. First, Quemoy is the Chinese Postal Map Romanization for Kinmen based on Min-nan (Amoy dialect) in the same way Amoy is the Chinese Postal Map Romanization for Xiamen. Second, Kinmen is based on the Wade-Giles, rather than Amoy dialect, transliteration of the name, which is what is used for county-level divisions in Taiwan. While Taiwan has adopted Hanyu Pinyin for most sub-county level political divisions, it retains the former spellings in county-level and higher divisions such as Taipei. See also: Hsinchu County and Hualien County. There is basically no justification for using pinyin here. Third, Kinmen is well-established and known to English speakers: Lonely Planet This is not a claim that Quemoy is not established, but I find it hard to believe in light of the evidence given that Kinmen is not well-established as a name. Anyone who searches this name outside the realm of Cold War history, which is not the focus of this article, will be likely looking for Kinmen, not Quemoy. Fourth, the notion that we must use "genuinely local name derived from islanders' spoken dialect" or that pinyin is "the correct transliteration of the Chinese characters" is hogwash. The locals are bilingual in Amoy dialect and Mandarin. By local dialect, we would have to move Xiamen to Amoy. Wikipedia naming conventions only favor pinyin when it is more common - there is no rule overriding common names when it comes to choice of romanization. Although I believe pinyin is a superior romanization system, this is not our call to make.--Jiang (talk) 02:12, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment: This doesn't resolve the article naming issue, but perhaps we should use either name in different context so usage on Wikipedia conforms to usage in the real world - Kinmen when speaking of geography (e.g. ferries between Xiamen and Kinmen), and Quemoy when speaking of the Cold War. Otherwise, to use Quemoy in every instance would be anachronistic: anyone who says "I am taking the ferry from Xiamen to Quemoy" will be sounding awfully archaic. They were be more consistent and equally archaic if they said "I am taking the ferry from Amoy to Quemoy."--Jiang (talk) 02:12, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Not that it matters how the subject is given in an obsolete system, but the Wade-Giles spelling for this locality is Chin-men. Of course, the county remains "Kinmen County" regardless of what the island might be called. It's nice to know the nomenclature in Taiwanese English. I don't see that as decisive. Kauffner (talk) 05:10, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
  • While we're at it, I must confess: I indulged in WP:OR. I contacted a true local Kinmen-ren (not a transplant from Taiwan). He told me that no one says "Quemoy", not even when Kinmnen-ren are speaking among themselves in the local Min Nan. The "K" is not Wade-Giles, it's Min Nan! [By coincidence, it is the same as wade Giles]. Kinmen-ren say "Kinmon" (with an initial voiceless velar plosive /k/) and a slight variation in the second vowel sound); Mandarin speakers say "Jinmen". All of this is WP:OR, but it may enlighten the conversation a bit. –OneLeafKnowsAutumn (talk) 05:39, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
  • If the islanders are using the Mandarin form, they are saying Jinmen (or possibly Chinmen, if you are a Wade-Giles man). If they are using the Minnan dialect, they might be saying "Quemoy." But as they are not speaking Taiwanese English with each other, there is no basis to claim that they are saying, "Kinmen." Kauffner (talk) 13:33, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
  • I know this is gonna sound impolite and I do sincerely apologize, but really, you are way off whatever is your turf when you begin arguing linguistics. What you said about Min Nan is simply wrong. You should kinda stick to safer ground. –OneLeafKnowsAutumn (talk) 13:37, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
  • It has no relevance to the common, English name of the island but Kinmen is probably not from Minnan. Rather, it's a Chinese Postal Map Romanization name (note in that article: "Chi, ch'i, and hsi (pinyin ji, qi, and xi) are represented as either tsi, tsi, and si or ki, ki, and hi depending on historic pronunciation.". Hence, Wade-Giles Chin-men → Kinmen.) The Minnan would be Kim-mng. —  AjaxSmack  02:40, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Yes, I stand corrected - Kinmen is not Wade-Giles. But as the closing admin in the previous move discussion stated, Kinmen is overtaking Quemoy as the prevalent usage. I find it hard to fathom Quigley's statement that between Kinmen and Quemoy, Kinmen is obsolete. The opposite is true.--Jiang (talk) 05:42, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
  • I don't think this is true, and nor is Wikipedia a crystal ball. The decision has to keep prevalent non-pinyin names four county level divisions. New Taipei was formed in 2010 and the specifically decided not to avoid pinyin.--Jiang (talk) 20:04, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Another thing WP:NCGN says is that the GEOnet server normally presents local official usage in the country concerned (for example, Frankfurt am Main); in a handful of cases, like Florence, it has a conventional name field. Its BGN Approved is a systematic transliteration, as Moskva — Wikipedia prefers Moscow, which is also the BGN conventional name. Where it acknowledges a conventional name, it is evidence of widespread English usage; where it does not, it is not addressing our primary question.
  • We are not primarily intended for the inhabitants of Quemoy, even in this article. Nor are we intended to take a position on the contending governments and transliteration systems of China. We are intended to communicate with an English-speaking audience, all over the world. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:47, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
    • Please note: Kinmen has become the conventional name. Another editor (above) keeps scaring up "Quemoy" in English-language books and papers etc., but he never actually looks at the texts he is linking: they all refer to events in the 1950s. [Google hits are illegitimate for this reason, and for the reason that "Quemoy" at least seems to be in use in other languages, such as Spanish.] The English-language texts that refer to the place as it currently exists all refer to it as "Kinmen", often with "Quemoy" mentioned parenthetically. That's the truth according to the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, The US Department of State, The World Trade Organization, Library of Congress – Federal Research Division etc. So yes, "we are intended to communicate with an English-speaking audience, all over the world", which is precisely why Kinmen is the preferred route. –OneLeafKnowsAutumn (talk) 00:03, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
    Tell us about your "true local Kinmen-ren" friend again. That argument was way more amusing. Maybe a picture would help? Kauffner (talk) 02:18, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
    Alas, having been severely outgunned by the impeccable, sterling reliable sources I have produced, and thus having no objective resources left to continue your argument with, you have been reduced to attempting to belittle me. I am not lying at all when I say that I hope your remarks are not in response to my suggestion that you reconsider arguing linguistics. I apologized before I said that, but again alas, it was simply the honest truth. Argue against the the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, The US Department of State, The World Trade Organization, Library of Congress – Federal Research Division etc. But if you start trying to push my buttons, it won't work. –OneLeafKnowsAutumn (talk) 06:24, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment. If you can take the top three or four authorities on a given subject and each and every one of them says the same thing, it should be case closed. So let me do it one more time: Merriam-Webster's geographical dictionary, GeoNames, Columbia Encyclopedia, Britannica, and Concise Dictionary of World Place-Names all give "Quemoy" as their preferred spelling. [http://www.amazon.com/dp/081293265X/ref=rdr_ext_tmb The Times Atlas of the World] gives "Chinmen". (This book was published in 1999 and uses Wade-Giles for Taiwanese place names.) Only Britannica gives "Kinmen" at all -- and as a fourth choice. "Jinmen" is better supported than "Kinmen." GeoNames implies that this is now the form approved by the Taiwanese government. Kauffner (talk) 02:14, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support per my reasoning in the previous move request: "As noted in a previous discussion above, 'Quemoy is an outdated name for Kinmen. Kinmen is now used by the government, in tourist brochures, and elsewhere'. I would add that Quemoy is still used in sources referring to the 1958 Taiwan Strait Crisis but it rarely used for contemporary topics. This no doubt accounts for 'Quemoy' being still common in books (as opposed to news sources or journals) and being used outside of Taiwan. In common English usage in the context of contemporary Taiwan, 'Kinmen' is almost exclusively used.[10][11] Also note the usage in the WTO name for Taiwan, the 'Separate Customs Territory of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen, and Matsu'." I would add that the situation is a little like that of Stalingrad. No doubt many people search Wikipedia for "Stalingrad" and many contemporary sources use that name in its historical context but we still title the city Volgograd because that's its name today. The same is true with Kinmen. In the historical context of the 1958 Taiwan Strait Crisis, it was Quemoy. Though the island doesn't receive much press in English these days, it's Kinmen when it does. (As an aside, an anecdotal bit of original research: People from the island usually say "I'm from Kinmen" in English.) —  AjaxSmack  02:40, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Categories and template

{{Fujian}} very clearly states that Kinmen is under ROC control, while "Fujian" in Category:County-level divisions of Fujian is NOT limited to PRC-controlled Fujian. There is no reason (other than to push an expansionist Taiwanisation of the Fujian islands like some here have been doing) to not include either. GotR Talk 16:55, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Taiwanese nationalism is a significant view, but I'm not sure what the general Taiwanese nationalist view on Kinmen is. Unless someone can demonstrate that they consider it part of Taiwan, I don't see any reason not to include Kinmen related categories as as a subcategory of Fujian related information. I think this is different from the Taiwan/China issue in that Kinmen really has been historically closely associated with Fujian and the people still, according to Wikipedia and it's sources, see themselves as Fujianese/Chinese. Readin (talk) 00:38, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

IP setting up archive

Just a note (to myself before I forget for good as much as anyone) this this is one of the pages affected by Ho Chi Minh IP cluster setting up Miszabot archiving of previous RMs. Editors should consider this when previous RM is archived and new RM appears. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:25, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Kaohsiung which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 20:59, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 29 August 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: CLOSE community-banned user (non-admin closure). In ictu oculi (talk) 09:53, 9 September 2015 (UTC)


Kinmen → Jinmen – Jinmen is the pinyin spelling of this name, and WP:PINYIN tells us that pinyin is our default Romanization. "Jinmen" is at least as common in the RS as "Kinmen," according to this ngram. Merriam-Webster's Geographical Dictionary gives "Quemoy or Chin. Jinmen" (that is to say, no "Kinmen") "For spelling of place names, a good reference is Merriam-Webster's Geographical Dictionary." according to WP:WIAN. The Columbia Gazetteer of the World, an authoritative library reference work, gives "Jinmen." ConstitutionalRepublic (talk) 03:28, 29 August 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 17:19, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Please note previous move discussions in the Archives here. —  AjaxSmack  16:28, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:PINYIN (use "pinyin as the default..., except where a non-pinyin form of a word is used by modern reliable secondary sources.") [my emphasis] Note that the names of the counties of Taiwan use the postal form and not pinyin. (The sources given in the nomination to support "Jinmen" also use the very uncommon "Chi-lung" instead of Keelung[12]) Also note my reasoning and evidence in previous move requests: In common English usage in the context of contemporary Taiwan, "Kinmen" is almost exclusively used.[13][14] Also note the usage in Kinmen National Park and the WTO name for Taiwan, the Separate Customs Territory of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen, and Matsu. As far as 67.70.32.190's comment goes, "Quemoy" is still used in sources referring to the 1958 Taiwan Strait Crisis, but it is rarely used for contemporary topics (cf. Stalingrad vs. Volgograd). —  AjaxSmack  16:28, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
    • If this theory was true, wouldn’t you expect to see an author use a different name depending on which historical period he was discussing? That never happens. It would be like saying that the capital of China was once in Peking, but that it is now in Beijing. It makes no sense to grant a common name exception for Kinmen, but not for Quemoy, which is a far more common usage. According to Geonames, the “approved” (local official) usage for the island is Jinmen Dao. The county is given as Jinmen while Keelung is Jilong. In other words, pinyin is official pretty much across the board at this point. We should not assume that the Taiwanese are making some sort of political statement when they use a non-standard Romanization. They are usually just screwing up. This page has some amusing examples. ConstitutionalRepublic (talk) 16:56, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
      • The local official name is 金門 which we won't be using for a number of reasons. You are relying on a USA military source that does not use common English names for places. A search reveals that Kinmen is a "Conventional" name while Jinmen is "Approved". Compare this with let's say Florence (Conventional) and Firenze (Approved) or Hong Kong (Conventional) and Heung Kong (Approved). Are we really supposed to have an article called Heung Kong based on this source? Please take a trip to Kinmen if you get a chance. It's a nice place. Notice all of the English signs that use "Kinmen" (and many Engrish ones, too). If you prefer more official usage, try both local and national government sources from Taiwan, the folks who are actually in charge in Kinmen. I agree that it is poor policy for Taiwan to have such exception to its pinyin policy for county names like Hsinchu and other places like Lukang but it's not my decision to make. —  AjaxSmack  02:56, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
  • I didn't mention Geonames in the proposal, you know. My argument is that "Jinmen" and "Kinmen" are about equally common on Gbooks, and that our guideline recommends defaulting to pinyin. Geonames gets its data from BGN, which is a civilian U.S. agency. BGN standardizes geographic naming across the U.S. government, not just for the military. It is the main supplier of data to the makers of atlases, gazetteers, and other geographic references. See here.
  • The World Factbook gives this subject as "Quemoy," as does Columbia Encyclopedia and EB. I uploaded a scan from Columbia Gazeteer, which uses "Jinmen": Scan of entry for Jinmen, Taiwan All of these references are recommended in WP:WIAN. I'm fine with either "Quemoy" or "Jinmen." The name was Quemoy, and it is in process changing to Jinmen. Kinmen it never was, or is going to be. ConstitutionalRepublic (talk) 02:57, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
It's been archived Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Kauffner/Archive In ictu oculi (talk) 09:53, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The Atlantic photo article

I found a photo article that may be of use:

WhisperToMe (talk) 03:48, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Archipelago?

I think it's a bit disingenuous to call Kinmen an "archipelago," since even in the map in this article, there are clearly other islands in this group that are not part of "Kinmen." The term "archipelago" would refer to all of these islands, not just the ones that have been designated as "Kinmen County." I am changing "archipelago" to "group of islands," but I'm open to other possibilities. Phlar (talk) 19:00, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

I think you are reading more into the definition of archipelago than really exists in normal use of the word. An archipelago is a group of islands - any group. There is no definition to define the grouping. There are many island groups in the world that are described as archipelagos but where the islands cross political borders. For example, Indonesia is often described as an archipelago even though the Indonesian government doesn't control all the islands clustered between Australia and Asia. Kinmen is a group of islands and thus the term archipelago correctly describes it. There may be other islands nearby that could allow some other grouping to be also described as an archipelago, but the two descriptions are not exclusive of each other nor does the use of one definition imply the other. Rincewind42 (talk) 02:29, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
To me, calling Kinmen County an "archipelago" implies that the county encompasses some sort of "complete" grouping of islands. But Kinmen County is just a political designation; only the islands under the control of the ROC are part of this county, and other nearby islands that aren't under control of the ROC are not part of this county. But I think any geologist or geographer would consider them all---ROC controlled and otherwise---to be part of the same archipelago. The passage in question currently reads, "...Kinmen County (Chinese: 金門縣; pinyin: Jīnmén Xiàn), is a group of islands, governed by Taiwan, which is located just off...." In my view, "group of islands" is unambiguous, but "archipelago" would misleadingly imply that Kinmen County is a discrete group of islands. Phlar (talk) 03:46, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Separate article for Jinmen?

User @ASDFGH: would reckon that Jinmen PRC should have its own page. As the two names refer to the same current physical place I have reverted to using a redirect from that name (Jinmen) to this article. Does anyone have a further perspective on this issue? Batternut (talk) 09:47, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps a separate article on the history of the ownership dispute might be the answer? Batternut (talk) 10:43, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

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climate?

I was curious to know the seasonality/climate of the weather/temperature/rainfall etc. in/on Kinmen, but there is no section here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.224.183 (talk) 18:24, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Non-native Namings

It is WP:UNDUE "prominence of placement" to add foreign language content not cited to native-native communication between the residents of the area. Geographyinitiative (talk) 03:46, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Recent changes

I recently made various edits to the article which I will justify in this post.

  • A paragraph on the pinyin name, "Jinmen," was added. On GBooks, Jinmen is used far more than "Chin-men," a Wade-Giles spelling which was given more coverage in the article prior to my recent edits. As the island's Cold War prominence faded in the 1980s and 1990s, usage for Kinmen declined, but not nearly as much as usage for Quemoy. Check out this ngram.
Since I have been accused of being a pinyin supporter, I should note that my preferred spelling of the island's name is "Quemoy." This is the spelling used by published dictionaries and encyclopedias. It would be the article's title if we followed our own naming guidelines.
  • My removal of this reference was questioned. The Ministry of the Interior doesn't make "the rules," so I don't understand the objection. The reference is a Chinese-language PDF that was removed from the MOI site years ago. IMO, this source, from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, is superior. This is just about neater sourcing since the various branches of the Taiwanese government provide consistent information.
  • I have to wonder why the 1958 bombardment and the island’s Cold War status were removed from the lead. These issues are surely more relevant than the names of the outlying island and the status of the disbanded Fujian Province.
  • I have restored the discussion of travel restrictions to the lead.
  • I have asked around to try to determine why so many Wikipedia editors add the phrase "Republic of China" to article text. It might look like an infiltration by the KMT. But as near as I can tell, it's not really a political statement. These editors argue the ROC is "official" because the Taiwanese government occasionally uses it. Of course, the government uses "Taiwan" as well. Asking how the government would do it is not how editing is supposed to work. Copy editors should select a dictionary and appropriate reference works and follow the usage in those. In this case, relevant reference works almost invarably use “Taiwan.” Our guidelines recommend The Chicago Manual of Style, which in turn recommends The World Factbook for this purpose. "Taiwan" is also more practical since “People’s Republic of China” and “Republic of China” are confusingly similar names.
  • The reason the island is called Quemoy has nothing to do with the university. So this information doesn’t belong in the names section.
  • I’d have restored the information that Taiwan officially uses pinyin to the “Names” section. The way it was written, it sounded like postal romanization is still a thing. 5440orSleep (talk) 08:56, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
infiltration by the KMT is an immediately block-able offense. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 14:00, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Is there a guideline regarding KMT infiltration? It was just a joke. 5440orSleep (talk) 17:21, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
"The reason the island is called Quemoy has nothing to do with the university. So this information doesn’t belong in the names section." No, but it is an example of the usage of the term in a prominent context in the local area. Hence it is warranted for the name section; hence it is readded. Geographyinitiative (talk) 03:50, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
Of all the many mentions of "Quemoy," why single out this one? It makes it sound like the term is making a comeback. Whether usage is increasing or not, the horserace tone is inappropriate. When I walked around the island, I didn't see even one sign that said "Quemoy." The islanders I talked to made a point of saying "Kinmen." I remember this because I thought it was odd that they would use this pseudo-English pronunciation instead of standard Chinese. Certainly usage for Quemoy has declined since the 1990s. 5440orSleep (talk) 05:50, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Greater Kinmen

Geonames gives eleven names for the island, but "Greater Kinmen" isn't one of them. MOFA doesn't mention Greater Kinmen either. Information that is this obscure doesn't belong in the opening paragraph. 5440orSleep (talk) 01:11, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this up. I have changed it to Kinmen Island based on GEOnet. The island has multiple names, but I think Kinmen Island is good enough for the readers to get a basic overview in the lead paragraph. Geographyinitiative (talk) 01:22, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Kinmen/Quemoy

Why is the article under 'Kinmen' rather than 'Quemoy'? I think most readers come to the article having heard the latter name (as in 'Quemoy and Matsu') and not the former.67.209.131.178 (talk) 05:27, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Even reading the current text, I get the impression that the title should be 'Quemoy.' Kdammers (talk) 03:21, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
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