Talk:Judge of Cagliari

Requested move 11 January 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Request reformulated below to reflect WP:RMUM reversions. — AjaxSmack 00:41, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

King of Cagliari → Judge of Cagliari
King of Gallura → Judge of Gallura
King of Arborea → Judge of Arborea
King of Torres → Judge of Torres
Kingdom of Cagliari → Judicate of Cagliari
Kingdom of Gallura → Judicate of Gallura
Kingdom of Arborea → Judicate of Arborea
Kingdom of Torres → Judicate of Torres

– These pages were recently moved from titles containing the Italian giudice and giudicato to English "king" and "kingdom". I sympathize with the desire to replace the Italian, since it is anachronistic. But English sources do not favour king/kingdom. For example, Brill's recent Companion to Sardinian History, 500–1500 does not describe the rulers as kings, nor there realms as kingdoms. (It does use judge and judicate, among other things.) Likewise, Stephen Dyson's. Archaeology and History in Sardinia from the Stone Age to the Middle Ages does not use king or kingdom. It prefers judicate and uses untranslated Latin judex for the rulers. Robert Rowland's The Periphery in the Center: Sardinia in the Ancient and Medieval Worlds does not appear to be consist (perhaps he is consistently following the sources). He avoids judge, but uses judex and judike as well as, on occasion, king. He uses both judicate and kingdom. Marco Tangheroni in his chapter in The New Cambridge Medieval History, Volume 5, preferes judge and judgeship. Medieval European Coinage, Volume 14 on southern Italy, Sicily and Sardinia, uses judge and judgeship/giudicato. The present titles are not strictly wrong, but you will have trouble finding the exact phrase "King of Gallura" or "Kingdom of Torres" in any English work. Srnec (talk) 01:15, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:RMUM, you should not have to go through the full RM process to undo recent undiscussed moves. (The burden should be on the user desiring the new title.) I will post requests at WP:RM § Requests to revert undiscussed moves. If you prefer for the discussion to proceed here, please feel free to remove my requests from that list. — AjaxSmack 21:31, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- There is also the issue of the change of Logudoro to Torres along with these recent moves; shouldn't that also be discussed? — AjaxSmack 21:39, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - User:Srnec: The reversions have already been carried out (somewhat atypically) with the speed of greased lightning. Since this has created more work for you if you prefer the titles you posted above, I will be happy to do the work of a new RM posting. Please simply affirm here or at my talk page and note whether you prefer Logudoro or Torres. — AjaxSmack 21:54, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    - That was fast! I don't have a strong preference, but I think we should see the above requests through. The reason I made the proposals above is that I think the original mover (L2212) has a point about using Italian on English Wikipedia for entities where a different Romance language was actually in official use at the time. But his preference for king/kingdom (and the odd 'judgedom') is out of step with English sources (although not wrong). As for Logudoro/Torres, I myself prefer Logudoro, but could go either way. Srnec (talk) 23:16, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      - Then I will repost it with Logudoro while mentioning Torres. — AjaxSmack 00:25, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 13 January 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved all. I'm not addressing the Logudoro/Torres question here, as that is really a side issue and not much discussed. If anyone feels strongly they can start a new RM specifically for that. — Amakuru (talk) 17:46, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Giudice of Cagliari → Judge of Cagliari
Giudice of Gallura → Judge of Gallura
Giudice of Arborea → Judge of Arborea
Giudice of Logudoro → Judge of Logudoro
Giudicato of Cagliari → Judicate of Cagliari
Giudicato of Gallura → Judicate of Gallura
Giudicato of Arborea → Judicate of Arborea
Giudicato of Logudoro → Judicate of Logudoro

– per WP:UE and sources in the discussion above. — AjaxSmack 00:41, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Replacing Logudoro with Torres is also a possible topic of discussion here.

Hello Srnec and AjaxSmack, sorry if I'm responding just now. Anyway I wasn't sure if those changes needed a discussion before moving the pages (I thought those could have been considered just corrections), it was not my intention to create any problem. I concur with User:Srnec when it comes to the term "Judicate", I only have a doubt about "judge". Maybe it would be better to leave the Sardinian term "Judike", like Robert Rowland did? The understanding of the concept of the term "judike" being something that defines monarchs is not as immediate in other languages as it is in Sardinian, that's why in medieval documents they referred to themselves as "judge, that is, king." ("iudex sive rex"). I'm not sure how that would work in English, or if it would be enough to clarify it in the article. --L2212 (talk) 14:13, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also I think it would be better to replace Logudoro with Torres, since its the most used name in Italian sources (ex. La Storia di Sardegna by it:Francesco Cesare Casula, but maybe that's different in English ones.--L2212 (talk) 14:26, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello everyone! I am personally fine with choosing either "Kingdom" or "Judicate". In the current situation, I agree with the user L2212 on moving the page to another name in English, as the name in Italian is, as you both seem to concur, anachronistic.--Dk1919 (talk) 19:26, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@AjaxSmack:@Srnec: Is the discussion over? Are the pages going to be moved now?--L2212 (talk) 13:48, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

An uninvolved admin will close it eventually and make the moves. Srnec (talk) 14:18, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Dk1919 Franking and Srnec: Do you have a preference and/or a rationale for Logudoro vs. Torres? Thanks. — AjaxSmack 22:26, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

My rationale for preferring Logudoro is that it is the name of the territory/region and so unambiguous. Torres stands for Porto Torres and so is ambiguous in some contexts. (The same thing applies to Arborea and Cagliari, but in those cases it is unavoidable.) A quick check of Google Books suggests that L2212 may be right: Torres is a little more common, but neither is rare and it is not uncommon to find a work flipping between them. Srnec (talk) 00:26, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.