Talk:Kilian Ignaz Dientzenhofer

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move from Kilián Ignác Dientzenhofer to Kilian Ignaz Dientzenhofer, per the discussion below, although when discussing these things we should avoid comments that can be interpreted as personal attacks. Dekimasu よ! 05:41, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proper name for the German architect born and active in Prague. Page can only be moved by admin. Common name, see e. g. Google Books 238 for Kilian Ignaz Dientzenhofer, 23 for Kilián Ignác Dientzenhofer. While the article may have been created by somebody from a Czech POV who did not know better, the article recently was victim of somebody with a Czech POV who does not want others to know better. See also the history of Dientzenhofer‎ and Christoph Dientzenhofer‎.-- Matthead ^discuß! O 12:23, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment do not use self reference [1] ! Also immediately stop personal attacks. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 13:29, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose he was born in Bohemia. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 12:12, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Take the rules into account (don't forget WP:COMMONNAMES). It doesn't matter whether he is Bohemian, Czech, German or Marsian, now does it? Because you've made your opinion a replica of Britannica on another matter ([2] [3] [4]), you can back down seeing this and end the scuffle. Sciurinæ 17:17, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support as per English usage. [5] compared to [6] Olessi 16:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support, since our general naming conventions and the specific one on using English require us to follow common English usage: "[i]f you are talking about a person, [...] use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works."
Keep in mind that, for the specific purpose of choosing this article's title, the subject's origin, maternal language, nationality, ethnicity, religion, and the forms under which he was and is known in languages other than English have no significance whatsoever. All we're asked to do is to passively refect the form with which most English-speakers are already familiar, instead of actively promote the adoption of the forms we prefer.
As attested by the searches done above and by my examples below, "Kilian Ignaz Dientzenhofer" is the form commonly used in English-language publications, and thus the one the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize. - Ev 01:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support as how he is best known, Tulkolahten is well known as a scoff-law who would almost always ignore our naming conventions, arguing irrelevant "born in" issues. We don't have a "birth name" rule, let alone some undocumented, unreferenced, pulled-out-of-thin-air "birth spelling" which he argues for. Gene Nygaard 19:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Examples of usage

Google Books test:

Searching for "Kilian Ignaz Dientzenhofer": ca. 34 books in English
(and ca. 99 in German, 14 in Italian, 5 in Dutch, 4 in French, 1 in Spanish, 1 in Turk).
Searching for "Kilián Ignác Dientzenhofer" & "Kilian Ignac Dientzenhofer": 3 books in English
(and ca. 14 in Czech, 1 in German, 1 in Dutch).

Google Scholar test:

Searching for "Kilian Ignaz Dientzenhofer": ca. 6 results in English (and ca. 2 in German, 2 in Italian).
Searching for "Kilián Ignác Dientzenhofer" & "Kilian Ignac Dientzenhofer": 0 results in English (and 3 in Czech).

Amazon.com test:

Searching for "Kilian Ignaz Dientzenhofer": ca. 23 books in English
15 of which are travel guides (and ca. 5 in German, 3 in Italian).
Searching for "Kilián Ignác Dientzenhofer" & "Kilian Ignac Dientzenhofer": ca. 8 books in English, 6 of which are travel guides.

Britannica:

Britannica's article is named "Christoph and Kilian Ignaz Dientzenhofer".

Best regards, Ev 01:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Nationality

This source [7] claims he was Czech, so Czech-bio-stub is perfectly correct and its removal is a vandalism. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 08:53, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not entering in the details of whether removing a simple stub template is vandalism or not, I see no problem in keeping the three templates toghether (Austrian, Czech & German), so everyone is happy :-) After all, the man lived in those long-gone calmer years when ethnicity didn't matter that much, and multiple identities depending on context were a given.

The worst consequence I can imagine would be seeing editors from the three nationalities/ethnicities/whatever expanding the article after following the stub-categories. - Best regads, Ev 15:27, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Dientzenhofers were not Czech in the modern sense of the word, and to claim them for the Czech Republic is to violate the first rule of scholarship - to treat all things as they are in their context. As such we can only say that Kilian Ignac was Bohemian, which allows for German or Czech (or even mixed) ethnicity. Velkyal (talk) 13:05, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia Absurdity: Dientzenhofer (born 1689) in Czech Republic

Someone keeps re-inserting that Kilian Ignaz Dientzenhofer was from Czech Republic [8]. Czech Republic started in 1918. Dientzenhofer, born in 1689 was born in Bohemia, an integral part of Germany Holy Roman Empire from about 900 to 1804.cheers 6 November 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.1.9.218 (talk) 17:50, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Correction, The Czech Republic was created in 1993 - Czechoslovakia was created in 1918.Velkyal (talk) 13:02, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]