Talk:Ken Thomson (footballer)

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Requested move 18 April 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (non-admin closure) — Amakuru (talk) 10:26, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ken Thomson (footballer) → Ken Thomson – sole subject of Wikipedia biographical entry who bears the exact name, "Ken Thomson", thus obviating the need for the qualifier, "(footballer)" (analogous to Kenny Thomson, another unique-to-Wikipedia name entry which is not in need of a qualifier at the Kenneth Thomson (disambiguation) page). —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 18:11, 18 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: The article on Kenneth Thomson, 2nd Baron Thomson of Fleet, says he is "in Canada known as Ken Thomson". He is probably not the only other one who is sometimes referred to that way, but that one seems like enough to require disambiguation. The Baron (the richest person in Canada and among the top-ten wealthiest people in the world, with 5537 page views in the last 90 days) seems much more noteworthy than the footballer (with 345 page views in the last 90 days), without even needing to consider the page views of redirects (e.g., the redirect Kenneth Thomson, with 2442 page views in the last 90 days, and the redirect Kenneth Roy Thomson, 2nd Baron Thomson of Fleet, with 1048 page views in the last 90 days). The footballer has no redirects. —BarrelProof (talk) 00:02, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In fact, it might even be worth considering making Kenneth Thomson, 2nd Baron Thomson of Fleet the WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT target for Ken Thomson. —BarrelProof (talk) 00:04, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

1. Since the 2nd Baron Thomson of Fleet was born, educated, lived his entire life in, and died in Canada and was known as "Ken" there, then the main title header should be Ken Thomson, 2nd Baron Thomson of Fleet or, since he preferred to not use the title, the main title header should be simply Ken Thomson, with the other header, Kenneth Thomson, 2nd Baron Thomson of Fleet becoming a redirect. As things stand now, however, the footballer is the only subject of a Wikipedia biographical entry whose main title header states "Ken", while the disambiguation page's main header is still "Kenneth Thomson", not "Ken Thomson".

2. For a wider perspective on disambiguation page naming practices, it may be useful to glance at the neighboring Kenneth Thompson disambiguation page. Among the usual mix of Kenneths, Kens and Kennys, there is only one "official" Ken, Ken Thompson, and he does not redirect to the Kenneth Thompson disambiguation page, nor is he given an unnecessary parenthetical qualifier, but he is permitted to stand on his own as the only "Ken Thompson", even if all the other Kenneth Thompsons may also be known as "Ken" (to make the similarity even closer, analogous to the footballer, Kenny Thomson, among those listed on the Kenneth Thompson page, one will find a footballer named Kenny Thompson).

3. For a still further perspective, it may be equally useful to consult another disambiguation page, Ken Carpenter. Each of the five Ken Carpenters has a parenthetical qualifier, but the sole "Kenneth" among them, Kenneth Carpenter, is, again, allowed to stand alone, without the need of a qualifier and without the need to make "Kenneth Carpenter" a redirect to the Ken Carpenter disambiguation page. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 03:52, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are missing what is stated in WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT and perhaps WP:COMMONNAME and WP:DAB, "The fact that an article has a different title is not a factor in determining whether a topic is primary.", and Wikipedia goes by common names and likely search terms, not just formal names, exact matches, and cumbersome titles. The baron was known as "Ken Thomson", as stated in the article about him. That is enough to make it clear that the footballer is not the primary "Ken Thomson". In fact the baron is probably the primary "Ken Thomson" on Wikipedia. There are also some other people who might be worth thinking about – Kenneths, Kens, Kennys, Thompsons, etc. —BarrelProof (talk) 14:28, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

1. I have already addressed those arguments in my comment below, as well as some of my comments above. As a start, in historical terms, relative importance of the two individuals is not in question since the Baron is, without any doubt, a much more notable personality than the footballer. The main point remains that the footballer is the sole individual specifically named "Ken" among those listed within Wikipedia's Kenneth Thomson (disambiguation) page and no written explanation in the Baron's dab page entry (such as "Best known as Ken Thomson") has been offered to justify the deviation from standard naming practices as exemplified by the disambiguation pages mentioned above which list the stand-alone Ken Thompson or the stand-alone Kenneth Carpenter.

2. Since Ken Thomson has, throughout its existence as a redirect, redirected to the Kenneth Thomson (disambiguation) page and not to the Baron, are we to assume that all Kenneths are also known as "Ken" and that every stand-alone "Ken" within a "Kenneth" dab page should have a parenthetical qualifier, while his stand-alone name redirects to that "Kenneth" dab page? Every stand-alone "Rick" doesn't redirect to "Richard", every stand-alone "Will" doesn't redirect to "William", etc. Under exceptional circumstances, in the same manner that Jimmy Stewart, among all the other Jimmy Stewarts, redirects to the actor James Stewart, "Ken Thomson" should then redirect to the Baron, rather than to the Kenneth Thomson (disambiguation) page, if such a resolution is acceptable, unless there is consensus for moving Kenneth Thomson, 2nd Baron Thomson of Fleet → Ken Thomson, 2nd Baron Thomson of Fleet, thus using another approach for making the Baron the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of both Kenneth Thomson and Ken Thomson. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 17:25, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose clearly the baron is the primary topic of "Ken Thompson" not this footballer. People should consider that Wikipedia articles only carry one article name, but that does not mean that the topics themselves only have one name. And the fact that a particular topic occupies a particular disambiguated title on Wikipedia is not evidence it is the primary topic, if no other disambiguated title has the same base name. Wikipedia is not the sum whole of the world, and everything in the world does not each have only a single name. -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 04:17, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Baron's article was created during his lifetime, in March 2004, yet there is no evidence that the name Ken Thomson ever redirected to him. As of this moment, it still redirects to the Kenneth Thomson (disambiguation) page, not to the Baron. Are we to assume that the other two Kenneths on that dab page are also known as "Ken"? Perhaps we should move Kenny Thomson back to its earlier heading of Kenny Thomson (footballer) so that Kenny Thomson may also redirect to the Kenneth Thomson (disambiguation) page? While Wikipedia is not the sum whole of the world, it is the sum whole of Wikipedia itself, and its standards and practices are followed within its pages. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 04:54, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.