Talk:Katyn massacre/Archive 3

This is an archive of past discussions about Katyn massacre. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Did by Nazi Germany?

There is ample evidence in the correspondence that during Second World War there is a general conviction that the crime was done by Nazis. Correspondence between Stalin and Churchill, Letter, No. 150
USSR have a much cleaner record in the case of human rights than even US, UK etc let alone Nazis. For instance, USSR relinquished their control over the 'colonies' after the October revolution whereas savage imperialist nations continued to held many nations as their colonies and looted them endlessly, treated the natives of these places as slaves and killed them mercilessly (The US backed coups in Indonesia, Chile etc killed many millions of communists. In the last decade of 19th century alone Britain has caused deaths of many many millions of Indians through famines that are caused by dumping of machine made goods that led to de-industrialisation and unemployment). The working hours being just 6 per day, giving away land, houses etc to people and so on would further prove this.
The article is written in an assertive and biased manner. Nowhere you can see an unbiased stance. No "allegedly" or anything.
There is large amount of publications in English (in the wake of cold war etc.) maligning USSR since the Imperialist bloc (first world) were lead by two English speaking nations. And all English speaking media carried forward this propaganda (which is what people link here).
The current rulers of Russia, Yetsin and his follower Putin came to power opposing Communists. So them claiming USSR did this, mean nothing. Aravind V R (talk) 15:25, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

No.

Volunteer Marek 17:58, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

No way. The mainstream sources all describe the NKVD as the perps. We are not going to entertain a fringe view. Binksternet (talk) 18:02, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Here's an easy WP:WEIGHT test: Present a modern (post-1993) published work by a historian (i.e. someone holding at least a (valid) doctorate in history) in any language, supporting the "Nazis did it" version. --illythr (talk) 22:30, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Ok. I'll be adding links that supports my view. Let us see if it builds upto something. Check these two links for now. link1, link2. (I've seen Illythr's comments in second link. Still added it so that others could read it). Aravind V R (talk) 14:28, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

A lot of articles in pravda regarding the incident. Google search "katyn site:http://english.pravda.ru" Aravind V R (talk) 15:00, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

One of your links is to a Wikipedia talk page in Russian. Not helpful. The other link is to an article by conspiracy theorist Yury Ignatyevich Mukhin so it is a very poor source. Binksternet (talk) 15:27, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Haha.. pathetic argument. The biggest evil in the world is the US (and the media run by US corporates). In last decade alone they caused deaths of millions of innocent people in middle east for no reason (or through their cooked-up propaganda). Anyone in the world would be more sensible and honest than them. I really didn't understand why the arguments from Russian talk page is not helpful and how calling someone conspiracy theorist would make their argument less important. This article would help you in labeling sources better. Aravind V R (talk) 16:51, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Mukhin's education is that of a metalworker. His views on history (or indeed every other scientific field he touched in his many books) remain outside of the attention of the scientific community and are thus not acceptable according to Wikipedia's reliable sources policy. Links to generic search result pages are not helpful in finding published works by modern historians. Also note that Wikipedia (including its Russian segment) is a US site. --illythr (talk) 22:08, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Aravind V R, I am sympathetic to arguments against the death-dealing colossus of modern American militarism. This is not one of those instances. There is no particular preference the U.S. shows to 1940s Nazi sources versus 1940s Soviet sources, or vice versa. They are both analyzed as neutrally as possible by U.S. historians.

This is an article about the horrific crime of Polish officers killed just so that many of the finest Polish people would be dead. It is not an article about the crimes of the modern U.S. military. Your focus on the modern conflict in the Middle East is off-topic. Binksternet (talk) 05:09, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Someone graduating from a metallurgical institute is a metallurgical engineer, not metal worker. (And there is nothing menial being a metal worker. People with very less formal education can learn things themselves. Have you heard about Ramanujan?) He was chief editor to one Russian newspaper and leader of many organisations as said in the biased wiki article itself.
The link to Russian wiki talk page was to show the amount of dissent to the bias in wiki articles like this. This is why people advice against reading political articles from wikipedia. People with bias are making wikipedia less popular.
The search page linked to many articles from famous Russian newspaper Pravda. I didn't ask to add a search page as reference. Articles like this and this (there are many) should prove the fact that the blame is not settled yet.
I meant the US media that carried the propaganda of WMD in Iraq are the poorest sources of truth in the world. Yet they are widely cited in Wikipedia. So you can't really raise the poor-source-argument against anyone. But the article by Mukhin just shares a fact that the Russian court denies the claims by Poland and US. If you have anything against it should be by proving that the court actually accepted those claims. Aravind V R (talk) 06:08, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Still not a historian. Nor a physicist, astronomer, etc.
There is voiced dissent to everything, including the shape and age of the Earth. Wikipedia has special rules in place to set apart specialists from laymen, and assign weight to their opinions as appropriate. That this process prevents brilliant homegrown geniuses from shedding hidden truth on various matters is an unfortunate, but unavoidable side effect.
The article already notes that the Communist Party of Russia (Pravda's owner) as well as several other Russian politicians and commentators continue to maintain that "the Nazis did it". As their opinion is a tiny minority and is not supported by published historical research, it is represented in this article accordingly.
The majority of material this article is based upon or directly comes from the official investigation by Soviet (and later Russian) officials and historians. US media and its propaganda is irrelevant here. For Wikipedia, it only matters who is a qualified historian and who isn't. That this Russian court denied anything other than the defamation claim by Stalin's grandson (against the Russian Duma and other people) is an opinion shared only by that same group (Mukhin, Strygin, Iluykhin etc). --illythr (talk) 20:47, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Lol. Blaming Germans for Katyn is about as smart as arguing Moon Landing was false. Both conspiracy theories deserve a brief mention, with a note about how ludicrous they are, that's all. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:12, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

A moderately interesting fact is that Mukhin maintains that conspiracy theory, as well as pretty much every other major one... except for UFOs. Perhaps he's hiding something... --illythr (talk) 20:47, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

What an astronomer has to do with a history article. I just condemned your obnoxious way of describing people.
Are you pretending to not understand what I am saying. It was about the arguments from Russian article. I didn't care to copy them since I thought you would be sensible enough to read them yourselves. Arguments like: the court's rejection of the claims, (that whole discussion regarding) counterfeit forgery Close-secret documents in the state archives, German weapons, Soviet prison camps never being allowed to be in possession of any documents etc.
Population in favour doesn't decide the truth of any argument. Read Argumentum ad populum. But most importantly, how come the second largest party in Russia is a tiny minority? And the party media is to communisty party is what corporate media is to capitalist countries. If former can't be allowed how come the latter (which is so notorious for the WMD propaganda in the last decade) can be allowed?
Official investigation by Soviet was clear on this - that Nazis did it. It is the Yetsin and his followers (including Putin) who disowned the Soviet legacy that buy the argument that Stalin did it. Aravind V R (talk) 11:33, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Another set of links: [1][2] Aravind V R (talk) 11:50, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

The overwhelming majority of Reliable Sources say that Stalin did it, and so that will stay.--Galassi (talk) 14:58, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Mukhin has become somewhat infamous in Russia for the various conspiracy theories he supports, such as the the Moon landing hoax one, hence the reference. Within the scope of this article, "not a historian" is sufficient.
The arguments you mention did not appear in any published historical works and hence are undue weight for this article. The general opinion that the Nazis did it, on the other hand, is already given due weight. Mentioning the German weapons, along with how the NKVD had procured them, might be a good idea, though.
Not general population, but qualified historians. The dissenting opinion of one political party of one country is indeed a tiny minority to the rest of the world, especially since that opinion has no published historical research backing it up.
The last Soviet/Russian official investigation was in 1990-2004. It concluded that the NKVD did it, and, thanks to the declassified evidence, was able to discover the other execution sites at Mednoye and Pyatikhatki (which the Germans did not know about). The results of this investigation form the basis of all modern Katyn-related historical research. To use your wording, it is the world's historians who "buy" that Stalin did it. Wikipedia just follows them.

The links you keep posting here not only fail the easy WP:WEIGHT test I suggested at the very beginning, but also demonstrate that you didn't even read this article, let alone any of its supporting research. Arno Düre is already mentioned here, along with the circumstances he was in when he was forced to make his confession (he did it in exchange for his life and the story he had to cook up was so bad even the Soviet prosecutors at the Nuremberg trials decided not to use it). --illythr (talk) 19:44, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Special Commission for Determination and Investigation of the Shooting of Polish Prisoners of War by German-Fascist Invaders in Katyn Forest

Was there one Comission or many? If one why does it have a specific name? Xx236 (talk) 07:43, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

116 out of 183 volumes of files gathered during the Russian investigation, were declared to contain state secrets and were classified

According to Lavrov all documents have been declassified but some documents aren't available because of privacy law. According to Polish press 35 volumes aren't available [3]. The Russians don't inform whose personal data are classified - of the victims or of the Soviet killers? Xx236 (talk) 07:52, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Other executions were carried out at the geographically distant Starobelsk and Ostashkov camps

I don't know about any such executions. The prisoners were transported elsewhere.Xx236 (talk) 08:23, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Merger proposal

Since this thread has been open for more than 30 days and a request has been made at WP:ANRFC I am closing this discussion as: MERGE. My reasons are as follows: 1) There seems to be strong, if not unanimous consensus that the Anti-Katyn article should not remain as a stand alone piece. 2) One editor said there was not anything worth merging but that does not preclude a merger outcome of this discussion as WP:MERGE says a "merger may be full or selective" and duplicate or irrelevant content may be discarded. 3) Those that feel that some or all of the content in Anti-Katyn should be included in Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919-1924) are welcome to place that content there but that action also does not preclude the merger of Anti-Katyn with this article which was clearly indicated by Binksternet and United States Man as their recommended course of action. (non-admin closure) — Keithbob • Talk • 19:24, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should Anti-Katyń be merged into Katyn massacre? Binksternet (talk) 18:39, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

Merge. The Anti-Katyń concept is just a small part of the whole Katyn massacre topic. If the anti- concept is presented alone, it will need the whole massacre topic as context. The solution is to merge them. Binksternet (talk) 18:39, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Merge – Agreed that the concept is just a small part of the whole Katyn massacre topic and they should be merged into one article. United States Man (talk) 00:36, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Comment. This concept seems to fail notability, through the merge target should probably be an article on Katyn denial, rather than here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:45, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
The article is about instrumental usage of the Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919–24) in Soviet and Russian propaganda rather than about Katyń crime or "Katyń denial" (doesn't exist). It may be possibly merged with the "Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919–24)" or "Soviet propaganda regarding WWII" or "Russian propaganda regarding WWII" (both don't exist, Propaganda in the Soviet Union does).
Please help to develop the article using the Polish one pl:Anty-Katyń.

Xx236 (talk) 07:32, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Comment. There is nothing to merge here. The "article" is a random collection of sentences on the topic of Katyn denial. The "main idea" - some Russian politicians and pundits trying to "offset" the massacre with the deaths of Russian POWs in the previous war - is already given due weight in the "Polish-Russian relations" section (and in a much more concise manner, too). --illythr (talk) 19:48, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
- Answer to the comment - the "Polish-Russian relations" section doesn't inform about the Gorbachev's role. You yourself write is already given due weight and I agree - this article isn't the right place to continue the subject, it's 115,198 bytes long and still growing; But maybe the Revelations section should describe Gorbachev's action.Xx236 (talk) 08:41, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

The subject of the article isn't the topic of Katyn denial but the instrumental usage of Soviet POWs.

The anti-Katyń subject should be also included in the Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919–24) article.

If a subect is covered in several articles, it's rational to create one main article.

You understand Russian language texts about the alleged Polish crimes (what about the alleged Soviet crimes on Polish POWs?). Why don't you write a summary?Xx236 (talk) 07:30, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Churchill's reaction

I think there may be a slight error in the sentence that discusses Churchill's reaction. That sentence now reads, "In private, Churchill agreed that the atrocity was likely carried out by the Soviets. According to Edward Raczyński, Churchill admitted on April 15, 1943, during a conversation with General Sikorski: 'Alas, the German revelations are probably true. The Bolsheviks can be very cruel'".[58] The citation is to the Carlton book at page 105, which I do not have. What I do have is a copy of Edward Raczynski's war diaries, titled "In Allied London" and published in English in 1962. In that book, on page 141, Raczynski discusses the lunch he had with Churchill, Sikorski and Cadogan on April 15, 1943. He says that they discussed the dispute between Russia and Poland over frontiers, then says, "This conversation took place a day or two after the announcement in Berlin of the discovery of the graves at Katyn. We told him that we had concrete proof of the responsibility of the Soviet Commissariat of Internal Affairs. Churchill, without commenting himself, showed by his manner that he had no doubt of it. He remarked: 'The Bolsheviks can be very cruel.' He added, however, that their ruthlessness was a source of strength, and was to our advantage as far as destroying Germans was concerned." There is nothing further regarding this lunch. Given that Churchill appears to have intentionally avoided any explicit agreement with the proposition that the Russians were to blame, it seems an overstatement to say that Churchill "admitted" that "the Germans revelations are probably true." Does anyone have the Carlton book? Perhaps he cites some other source authored by Raczynski. If he cites "In Allied London" then I propose that the sentence be changed.

It's been a couple weeks and there's been no objection, so I went ahead and changed the sentence, and the citation. Drochtegang (talk) 19:04, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

570,387 Polish citizens had been subjected to some form of Soviet political repression

Piotrowski probably means qualified persecutions - arrests, deportations to Siberia or Kasakhstan, killings. The number of Poles expelled after the war was above 1 000 000 and an expulsion is a form of political repression.Xx236 (talk) 07:00, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Don't vandalise the article

Furr is an expert in old English literature, not in Katyn crime. Xx236 (talk) 06:24, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Please refrain from mislabeling edits as 'vandalism'. It is possible that the edit was 'inaccurate', but there were obviously no ill intentions. Thank you, Unrequestedsillything (talk) 22:42, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

I mean not the edit by the revert.

My grandftaher was murdered by the NKVD, not in Katyn, but I expect respect for families of the victims. It's not a right place to present JFK was an alien theories.

Please don't use bold. Thank you. Xx236 (talk) 05:50, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Granted, Anti-Kaytn is not the dominant view, but to equate it to suggesting that JFK was an alien seems like an unncessesary exaggeration, if you ask me. Maybe Grover Furr's research truly doesn't belong here. If that's the case, however, then let's at least make sure that we have a solid explanation to justify why that is. Unrequestedsillything (talk) 23:30, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Disturbing lack of evidence in the article

I'm looking for actual photocopy's of these execution orders, or transcripts. The articles claim they exist and that they're referenced, but when I click the outside links they go straight to "google books" and just give the name/titles of the books rather than the actual content. Can people read these books and state whether these books have the actual transcripts of the see orders - or do they just merely reference them too?

-G — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.37.178 (talk) 08:16, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

This is rather alarming. If this is true about the sources claiming the existence of actual execution orders, then they need to be removed. There needs to be further discussion on this. Unrequestedsillything (talk) 01:26, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

German Bullets Found In Graves

should this be added

https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/ivan-katchanovski/owning-massacre-ukraines-katyn

http://www.worldwarhistoryonline.com/world-war-history-news-articles/item/677-owning-a-massacre-it-was-the-germans-not-the-russians — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mas2500 (talk • contribs) 22:56, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Does this article mention the Volodymyr-Volynskyi crime? If not - what is the connection? Why don't you edit any Holocaust article or Volodymyr-Volynskyi?Xx234 (talk) 10:00, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Since you ask if the article mentions Volodymyr-Volynskyi, you appear to be implying that you did not read the article, if I am not mistaken. Also, when you ask rhetorical questions such as "why don't you edit any Holocaust articles?", I believe that you may be simply trying to be provocative. I ask that you discontinue that. None of us are holocaust deniers, and to insult us by name-calling is not behavior I want to see from fellow Wikipedians. That aside, he information provided in the articles listed above appear to be valid and reliable. I believe that it would be appropriate to add the above information into the article. If you disagree, will you please explain, with substantial reasoning, why? I apologize if I appear to be judgemental, but in the past I've seen you dismiss counter points by simply saying "please respect victims" or "this is not the place for JFK was an alien theories.", both of which are ultimately weasel arguments. Anti-Katyn may be a fringe viewpoint, but Wikipedia does not necessarily exclude fringe viewpoints from being presented; they simply should not be given undue weight. I would argue that Anti-Katyn is at least prominent enough that it deserves to be given some amount of attention within the primary article. While Soviet responsibility for Katyn is the dominant viewpoint, it is a fact that the documentation supporting it is far more sparse than that of Nazi crimes, which we can all agree are very real. Paradigm shifts do happen, you know. Who's to say that that won't ever happen with Katyn? Unrequestedsillything (talk) 11:58, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

No, this should not be added. It's not relevant to this article.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:20, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Regarding Grover Furr in further reading

Currently, there is no consensus regarding the general notability of Furr. Unless that is achieved at a later point in time, I do not see any reason to remove his work about Katyn. Remember that terms such as 'hobby historian' and 'JKF was an alien theories' are insufficient (see: WP:WEASEL). Please also keep in mind that personal or family experiences with the article subject cannot directly interfere with explanations for actions. E.g. 'respecting victims' does not constitute for removal of information. If there community members that want the entry for Grover Furr removed, please allow discussion before taking action. Unrequestedsillything (talk) 01:49, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

On the contrary, Grover Furr is a denier of Stalin's crimes who has zero credibility as a historian. Adding one of his denialist articles to the Wikipedia page about the Katyn massacre is like adding a holocaust denying article to the Wikipedia page about the holocaust. Ivanevian (talk) 07:01, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Please do not mislabel good-faith edits as vandalism. If you have a reason for reverting content, please support the action with a constructive argument, rather than simply claiming that the subject has 'zero credibility'. Remember that there is currently no consensus on Wikipedia regarding Furr's credibility whatsoever.

I also fail to see how adding an alternative viewpoint on Stalin can be compared to holcaust denial. Can you elaborate on your reasoning for comparing the two?

I will not start and edit war here, but neither do I consider this conflict over. It is clear to me that both of us have a conflict of interest regarding the issue. If a neutral point of view in the article is too difficult to ascertain, then I believe it will be best for both sides to be presented.

I would also like to point out that there is information in the article claiming to support official story of the Katyn massacre that appears to be original research, as stated in the entry above. Unrequestedsillything (talk) 11:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

The Earth isn't flat.Xx236 (talk) 06:38, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Grover Furr is not a reliable source for Katyn massacre history. He's an English language professor, so his expertise is not in military history. The people who are experts in military history don't think very highly at all of Furr's arguments. That makes him a fringe character here, not worthy of having a link to any of his writings. Binksternet (talk) 06:39, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Xx236, you are going out of your bounds right now. Insulting me by saying that I believe the Earth is flat is completely uncalled for and you are clearly trying to be inflammatory. Unrequestedsillything (talk) 06:36, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

You are insulting victims of the crime and their families. The Katyń crime isn't a scientific theory, it's real life, 50 yers of lies. Xx236 (talk) 12:26, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Please, enough of this 'insulting' nonsense. This helps my discussion in no way. Truth is truth, even if it is insulting, regardless of which side is true. While I don't agree with you nor Binksternet regarding Katyn, at least he made a relevant case about Grover Furr. I have no complaints about him since he actually explained why Grover Furr should not be here. He contributed to the discussion without simply blowing me off by calling me a 'flat Earther'. Anyway, I'd say that this discussion about Grover is otherwise complete. Unrequestedsillything (talk) 04:10, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Looking at Grover Furrs biography and the reception of his publications, it seems rather obvious that he is not suited as a source for this article.--Kmhkmh (talk) 23:43, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

"BLOOD LIES: The Evidence that Every Accusation against Joseph Stalin and the Soviet Union in Timothy Snyder’s Bloodlands Is False. Plus: What Really Happened in: the Famine of 1932-33; the “Polish Operation”; the “Great Terror”; the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact; the “Soviet invasion of Poland”; the“Katyn Massacre”; the Warsaw Uprising; and “Stalin’s Anti-Semitism”. New York: Red Star Publishers, 2014."

"“Did the Soviet Union Invade Poland in September 1939? (The answer: No, it did not.).” Cyrano’s Journal September 1, 2009."

Yeah, I'll pass. GAB^Hello! 01:46, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm not really sure how that relates to my posting or even what is that supposed to tell in general.--Kmhkmh (talk) 13:22, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

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Katyn v. Katyń

Is there some reason we don't use Katyń but rather Katyn? Would anyone object if I changed the spellings on the page to Katyń? Ogress 21:57, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

to execute all captive members of the Polish Officer Corps

Not 'all', some were trained by the NKVD or preserved like Swianiewicz.
Not only Corps, but also the police and other groups listed in the memo.Xx236 (talk) 10:33, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

was the largest execution of this type

Obviously false, the biggest execution of Poles was the Ostashkov camp execution in Tver. The Vinnytsia massacre was bigger.

All 1940 execution of Poles were much smaller than the Great terror executions, were much smaller than Polish action executions (111 000).Xx236 (talk) 07:31, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Xx236 (talk) 08:32, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

the Polish Home Army prisoner from Pawiak

The Home Army prisoners obtained POW rigts in 1944, so Goetel wasn't a POW.

Goetel was imprisoned in 1941 for a short period, one of his problems was his German surname, he refused to sign the Volkslista.

As far as I know he wasn't imprisoned in 1943.Xx236 (talk) 09:06, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

In art, entertainment, and media

The section has experienced degeneration from the time when the article was kept as FA in FAR (see it in the old version). What was once balanced, perfectly good prose, is now a trivia section with the characteristics of a bad 'in popular culture section' that only lists appearances (MOS:POPCULT). I think we should return the section to how it was. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:55, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

I removed that Metal Gear thing. What did the section look like before? Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:57, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

@Volunteer Marek: like this: #In art and literature – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:09, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Oh yeah, that's a ton better.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:59, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

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Notes

Re "Western response" section, there are opinions that there were more substantial reasons than just the (rather vague) "alliance with the Soviets was deemed to be more important than moral issues". Hitler and Stalin (via Molotov and Ribbentrop) were at that time engaged in secret peace negotiations, and the Soviets gave a clear message to the Allies that if the truth of the Katlyn massacre was publicly accepted it could lead to those peace negotiations moving further forward. This article [4] cites the 1943 book "The Polish conspiracy" by George Audit [5] as one of the delivery methods for that message. As well as calling the massacre a "insidious frame-up" a "fable" a "Gestapo fabrication", etc., it contains a quote by Stalin talking about reports that Germany wanted a peace treaty with the Soviet Union on condition The Soviet Union breaks its alliance with Britain and America. "By placing Stalin's quotation on the front cover at a time when the Molotov-Ribbentrop peace negotiations were underway, the pamphlet uttered a none-too-subtle hint about the possible dire consequences of truthfulness" according to Challinor. I'm not sure how RS the Challinor article is, and maybe the same opinion can be found in other sources. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:39, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

We quote reliable sources.

The SU did quite well in 1943, whou should it have repeated the 1939-1941 errors?

The West didn't need any Soviet leaflets, they perfectly understood Uncle Joe, they gave him everything he wanted - land, arms, people.Xx236 (talk) 09:38, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

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COI Disclosure

Donald Stewart was my great uncle. As a result I'll keep my editing on this page limited to grammar/spelling and maintaining verifiability. Stewartsoda (talk) 14:03, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Genocide?

Was the massacre an example of genocide? (JitF (talk) 18:46, 2 August 2017 (UTC))

No, it was a political attempt by Soviet Russia (Stalin) to eliminate the Polish military heads so that control would be easier in Poland. This is a question better addressed at Wiki Helpdesk.50.111.41.216 (talk) 13:57, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

And so, yes, is an example of genocide if we use the interpretation done on the case Prosecutor v. Radislav Krstic – Trial Chamber I – Judgment – IT-98-33 (2001) ICTY8 (2 August 2001), as the case that "If a specific part of the group is emblematic of the overall group, or is essential to its survival, that may support a finding that the part qualifies as substantial within the meaning of Article 4 [of the Tribunal's Statute]", so I think killing the elite of a nation is also a genocide (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide#%22In_part%22 ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.255.178.243 (talk) 10:17, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Blechley not monitoring Katyn messages—truth or fiction?

“Robert Harris’ 1995 novel Enigma … featured the discovery of the Katyn massacre as a central plot point.” – I wonder if Harris’ tale that Britain on March 4, 1943 very exceptionally stopped monitoring messages about the massacre, if that’s a fact or fiction? Page 295: “And you intercept everything? – Absolutely. Unless you tell us not to.” The book is online, incidentally, try http://j dot mp/2AmFmTF , even in German. – Fritz Jörn (talk) 07:23, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

FACR issues

Hey folks. I have some concerns with the article at hand. I'm not positive it fulfils all the WP:FACR points—as a matter of fact, I think it falls short of the criteria on several key issues. In particular, I fear that the copy has many instances of close paraphrasing. Let's take a look:

Article: The Red Army advanced quickly and met little resistance

Source: Soviet army intervention met with little resistance

Article: Once at the camps, from October 1939 to February 1940, the Poles were subjected to lengthy interrogations and constant political agitation by NKVD officers, such as Vasily Zarubin.

Source: Once there, the Poles were placed in "special" (concentration) camps, where, from October to February, they were subjected to lengthy interrogations and constant political agitation.

Article: The prisoners assumed they would be released soon, but the interviews were in effect a selection process to determine who would live and who would die.

Source: The Poles were encouraged to believe they would be released, but the interviews were in effect a selection process to determine who would live and who would die.

Article: In 1944, Roosevelt assigned his special emissary to the Balkans, Navy Lieutenant Commander George Earle, to produce a report on Katyn.[25] Earle concluded the massacre was committed by the Soviet Union.[25] Having consulted with Elmer Davis, director of the United States Office of War Information, Roosevelt rejected the conclusion (officially), declared he was convinced of Nazi Germany's responsibility, and ordered that Earle's report be suppressed. When Earle requested permission to publish his findings, the President issued a written order to desist.[25] Earle was reassigned and spent the rest of the war in American Samoa.[25]

Source: In 1944, President Roosevelt assigned Capt. George Earle, his special emissary to the Balkans, to compile information on Katyn. Earle did so, using contacts in Bulgaria and Romania. He too concluded that the Soviet Union was guilty. FDR rejected Earle's conclusion, saying that he was convinced of Nazi Germany's responsibility. The report was suppressed. When Earle requested permission to publish his findings, the President gave him a written order to desist. Earle--who had been a Roosevelt family friend--spent the rest of the war in American Samoa.

Article: Katyn was a forbidden topic in postwar Poland. […] Not only did government censorship suppress all references to it, but even mentioning the atrocity was dangerous

Source: Katyn was a forbidden topic in postwar Poland. Censors suppressed all references to it. Even mentioning the atrocity meant risking reprisal.

Article: During the 1951–52 Congressional investigation into Katyn, Bissell defended his action before the United States Congress, arguing it was not in the U.S. interest to antagonize an ally (the USSR) whose assistance the nation needed against the Empire of Japan.

Source: During the 1951–52 Congressional investigation into Katyn, Bissell defended his action before the United States Congress, arguing it was not in the U.S. interest to antagonize an ally (the USSR) whose assistance the nation needed against the Empire of Japan.

That's only after aprox. ten minutes of spotchecking. I fear that there might be a whole lot more copyvio concerns lurking in the article. We also have a EL farm, a See also farm, and a pop culture farm (with clunky bullet points). I'd like to note that I took part in the FAR in 2011, where it was kept after half a year of antagonistic behaviour and sniping. I hope to achieve a more collegial atmosphere this time round. This article may be kept as an FA, but a lot of homework needs to be done here. Best, Eisfbnore ^(会話) 02:44, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

I have been asked to assist with copyediting.

The above article quotations, set beside their source texts, apparently raise concerns in Eisfbnore's mind about possible copyright violations.

I expect that such concerns can be readily resolved by Eisfbnore or by another Anglophone editor.

If there are concerns about the accuracy of anglicizations of Polish-language texts, I will be happy to look at any that may be brought to my attention.

Thank you.

Nihil novi (talk) 09:52, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

National Katyń Memorial, Harbor East, Baltimore.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:53, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Soviet version underrepresented, German pistols were the weapon of choice

So, the biggest evidence for "the Germans did it version" is literally the fact that the execution was done with the German weapons... And this is explained away with "Soviet pistols had too much recoil"? Is this a joke?--Adûnâi (talk) 08:54, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

The claim is supported by this ref: "See for instance: Polak, Barbara (2005). "Zbrodnia katyńska". Biuletyn IPN (in Polish): 4–21. Archived from the original on 8 December 2009. Retrieved 22 November 2007 (in Polish). Do you have good reason to doubt that source and/or argue that it has been mis-translated? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:58, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes. For example, look at this section of the article on Vasily Blokhin, who killed maybe a third of them himself, and look at the references provided. Antandrus (talk) 16:56, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

German perpretators?

@Baztain: please help us understand why you want to make your major change to the article. I will take some time to dive deeper into your sourcing, but my first glance suggests that the sources for 'the Nazis did it' are not as reliable as existing sources. Grover Furr's book, for example, is on the fringe of historical scholarship. In the meantime, perhaps you'd like to highlight the most reliably sourced changes your proposing? It's important for you to gain consensus for changes like these. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 15:30, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: Grover Furr, the research made by the Russian historians, are all apparently in opposition to the widly established view regarding this historical event. Although this does not imply their falseness. Everyone who is genuinly intrested in the truth will read the both sides and I cannot for one see how you would then come to the conclusion that the "official" (western) picture is in any sense truthful. Being stapeled as "fringe" by an obviously corrupted "academia" is in this context of no intrest if truth is what we seek. And if we don't seek to republish truth.. then what are we even doing on this platform.

I hate to say it but tbh wikipedia is not in any way as it is right now merley an objectivly informative platform. There has been thousands of editors employed by the cia and fbi who edits these pages in an attempt to reshape public opinion and what i edited was countering this interferance. .^[1] this is not even something they are shy about as they openly admitt in their own newspaper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baztain (talk • contribs) 10:19, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

I can empathize with the frustration of knowing the truth is not adequately covered by reliable sources. You might push for venues outside of Wikipedia to increase coverage of your view. Until then, the consensus of this community is to afford the view as much prominence as is due based on its coverage in reliable sources. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 19:49, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Ahem, "There has been thousands of editors employed by the cia and fbi who edits these pages...". Do you have any evidence at all that even one of the editors who have edited here is "employed by the CIA and FBI"? If so, I'd be very interested to see it. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:18, 1 September 2021 (UTC) p.s. oh, and that Reuters report was 14 years ago?

@Baztain: I'm keeping an eye on this article. Do not edit war or I will take administrative action, such as a page block or locking the article. Mjroots (talk) 05:28, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

References

^ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-security-wikipedia-idUSN1642896020070816

Burdenko Commission: major blunder

While reviewing the previous issue with Katyn negationism by Grover Furr et al., I was thinking there must be an article about Katyn denial, similar to Holocaust denial, and I noticed a major blunder. The section "Soviet actions" contained a reference to a wrong commission (and I unwittingly contibuted to the perpetration of this blunder by creating a wrong redirect Burdenko Commission based on this text.

I suspect that the root of the confusion was a grave misuse of wikipiping. At that moment ( 23 October 2015‎ ) the article contained this wikipipe: [[Extraordinary State Commission#Controversial communiqués|Special Commission for Determination and Investigation of the Shooting of Polish Prisoners of War by German-Fascist Invaders in Katyn Forest]] The current version of Extraordinary State Commission (ESC) does not have section "Controversial communiques" and someone without much thinking replaced the wikipipe by direct link to ESC. Anyway, long story short, "Special Commission for Determination and Investigation..." «Специальная комиссия по установлению и расследованию обстоятельств расстрела немецко-фашистскими захватчиками в Катынском лесу (близ Смоленска) военнопленных польских офицеров» is a differnt commission set up by the ESC in 1944 (ESC was set in 1942). Polish Wikipedia has a separate article for it: pl:Komisja Nikołaja Burdenki, however IMO a more comprehensive text to address the issue is the ruwiki article ru::Советское расследование Катынского дела (1943—1944) (1943-1944 Soviet investigation into the Katyn massacre), which also includes a preliminary 1943 investigation by NKVD by yet another commission headed by a Sergei Kruglov.

And it looks like en-wiki does not cover this topic adequately, beyond the brief section, Katyn massacre#Soviet actions. I carried out a quick remedy in this section, but I have no stamina to write an adequate article. Lembit Staan (talk) 17:42, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

After all, I decided to create the missing article and I am wondering which title to use: IMO Burdenko Commission is a bit too narrow title, but the Russian title is kind of POV: the "Soviet investigation" was not really investigation, but a cover-up effort. What would be your suggestions? Lembit Staan (talk) 16:50, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure Burdenko Commission is too narrow. It's narrow in the sense of being precise. It's common enough in reliable sources, though sometimes not as a proper noun ('Burdenko commission, 'Burdenko's commission'). I agree that "Soviet investigation..." is inapt. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 17:10, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

USSR did not invade Poland

Check the very first paragraph. USSR did not invade Poland in 1939. Nazi Germany did. This page has errors out the wazzoo. Dtss2017 (talk) 01:19, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Of course they did. Two and a half weeks after the Nazis, but they did. That was in accordance with the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement. Antandrus (talk) 01:26, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, they did. And, no, not in accordance. Read, e.g. G. Roberts. The text of the secret protocol did not stipulate what the party were supposed to do, it defines what the parties are not allowed to do (Germany does not go East from Kurzon's line, and vise versa). Contrary to Ribbentrop's attempts to present it as a military pact, it contained no military obligations. Paul Siebert (talk) 01:57, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Secret Additional Protocol. Article I. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement in the areas belonging to the Baltic States (Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), the northern boundary of Lithuania shall represent the boundary of the spheres of influence of Germany and U.S.S.R. In this connection the interest of Lithuania in the Vilna area is recognized by each party. Article II. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement of the areas belonging to the Polish state, the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narev, Vistula and San. The question of whether the interests of both parties make desirable the maintenance of an independent Polish States and how such a state should be bounded can only be definitely determined in the course of further political developments. In any event both Governments will resolve this question by means of a friendly agreement.
— Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact, 22 August 1939

The Government of the German Reich and the Government of the U.S.S.R. consider it as exclusively their task, after the collapse of the former Polish state, to re-establish peace and order in these territories and to assure to the peoples living there a peaceful life in keeping with their national character. To this end, they have agreed upon the following: ARTICLE I. The Government of the German Reich and the Government of the U.S.S.R. determine as the boundary of their respective national interests in the territory of the former Polish state the line marked on the attached map, which shall be described in more detail in a supplementary protocol. (...) Both parties will tolerate in their territories no Polish agitation which affects the territories of the other party. They will suppress in their territories all beginnings of such agitation and inform each other concerning suitable measures for this purpose.
— German–Soviet Boundary and Friendship Treaty, 28 September 1939

The latter resulted in subsequent NKVD-Gestapo collaboration. Cloud200 (talk) 11:10, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

I am not discussing the second agreement, because it was signed after the USSR invaded Poland.

With regard to MRP, it literary says: Germany and USSR can do whatever they want, but they should not cross Vistula, Narev and San. I see no sign of any agreement about any joint military actions in this document.

However, that is a primary source, so its interpretation may be wrong. Let's see what experts say about that.

"The signing of the pact with the erstwhile enemy was indeed rationalised in ideological terms; for the Comintern, for example, it meant the abandonment of the anti-fascist popular front politics of the 1930s (at least for a time). The decision itself, however, was based on perceptions and calculations in which ideology played only a marginal role. Moreover, in adopting this course of action Stalin and Molotov, it seems, had no clear idea of its precise practical outcome. This only emerged in the wake of Germany’s rapid conquest of Poland in early September 1939. In response Moscow decided to invade and occupy its sphere of influence in Poland and subsequently to incorporate Western Byelorussia and Western Ukraine into the USSR. " (G. Roberts, Review of International Studies (1999), 25, 655–673)

It is easy to see that that Kremlin agent from Cork University says essentially what I say.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:48, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

1) Vistula is a river on the territory of Poland, not USSR or Germany; 2) the line on the territory of Poland was drawn in August, before invasion, not September 1939, after invaion. Where you say "it literally says", it's 100% your personal WP:POV. Cloud200 (talk) 22:05, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

On 23rd of August, the line was drawn that was not supposed to be crossed by Germany or USSR, had they decided to invade Poland. However, this document stipulated no military action, and, especially, no joint military action. Roberts clearly say that Stalin or Molotov had no clear idea on what to do, and the text of the protocol contained nothing concrete. That is exactly what the source says, and these are not my speculations. Moreover, he clearly says that Stalin's decision to invade Poland was triggered by unexpectedly rapid German advance. I remember other sources say that too.

By accusing me of POV pushing, you are engaged in personal attacks. Remember, this area is under DS, and you seem to have been duly warned about that.

By the way, if you have time to comment here, maybe, you will make your statement at the DR noticeboard? we all are waiting for you. Do me a favour, make your DR statement (unless you lost interest in participation). Paul Siebert (talk) 22:35, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

In addition, drawing various lines on other state's territory was not an unusual thing in XX century. Thus, in Munich (1937) British and French leaders drawn a line at the territory of Czechoslovakia. Paul Siebert (talk) 22:42, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, but unlike the Soviets with Poland, the British and French never annexed Czechoslovakian territory. --Nug (talk) 06:46, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Correct. However, it seems you don't understand my argument. I object mostly to the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy: since the USSR invaded Poland after signing the secret protocol, that means it did that in accordance with it. That is a logical fallacy, and Roberts points at that. It was ok (during those times) to have secret protocols (and many other treaties signed in 1930s also had them). It was ok to draw some lines on other state's maps (Munich agreement did that too). It was ok to discuss possible territorial changes of other states (thus, Britain seriously discusses a possibility of transferring Danzig to Germany: its treaty with Poland was a guaranty of her independence, but not of her territorial integrity). I would say, even invasion of other state's territory was ok (Britain, jointly with USSR, invaded a neutral Iran). What was not ok was invasion, military occupation, and full annexation (followed by massive repressions). That was not ok, but that was not stipulated by the MRP's secret protocol.

What happened after 17th September was not only a crime, that was a mistake. There can hardly be any disagreement about that, but to attribute that to MRP is incorrect. The pact created prerequisites for those actions, but it did not stipulate them. Paul Siebert (talk) 20:01, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

And incidentally, action followed the prerequisites in only two weeks, but that was by pure coincidence. Cloud200 (talk) 22:31, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Again, post hoc non propter hoc.

Of course, that was not a pure coincidence. However, historians argue that the course of events could be different: for example, Hitler could just occupy Danzig (which most likely caused no war declaration of Germany by UK/France). Or UK/France provided some real help to Poland, which stopped German advance, and so on and so forth. In that case Stalin hardly took any actions, and nobody would claim that MRP's secret protocol stipulated any joint actions. Paul Siebert (talk) 22:38, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

No mention of Grover Furr's views?

The Mystery of the Katyn Massacre by Grover C. Furr purports to prove that the Soviets were not responsible for the massacre. Is it worthy of mention on the page as a controversy, or is it merely pseudo-history by a Stalin apologist? I came here to see if Furr's views were mentioned, but it may be that he's essentially a Flat Earther on this topic. PapayaSF (talk) 03:45, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, Furr essentially is the equivalent of a Flat Earther on this topic. His work is not subject to peer review by any serious scholars or academic publications. Furr's main claims are that the documents released during the Glasnost era proving full Soviet guilt for the crime—as well as the admissions of full guilt by both the Soviet government in 1989 and the Russian government in 2010—are mere forgeries created to demonize Stalin, while NKVD's own self-absolving reports from 1944 are completely genuine. He bases a lot of this on the "reseach" of a Stalinist member of the Russian Duma who has a history of denying all the evidence of Stalin's crimes as mere forgeries. Don't take any of Furr's research seriously. ImperatorPublius (talk) 23:50, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

> His work is not subject to peer review by any serious scholars or academic publications.

Perhaps not by mandate, but many have reviewed it and found it highly credible. There's lots of reviewing of it, and it's fairly solid.

> He bases a lot of this on the "reseach" of a Stalinist member of the Russian Duma who has a history of denying all the evidence of Stalin's crimes as mere forgeries.

I wouldn't consider this "a lot", and either way it's an ad hominem attack. "There's no way that someone critiquing someone else who I personally don't like can be credible" is the argument made here. 47.145.96.69 (talk) 02:16, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

His work is absolutely dismissed by anyone with credentials on the topic. Binksternet (talk) 15:45, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Could you give an example of such a dismissal? Psx1337 (talk) 09:44, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia has become a sect and a joke. Imperator's answer illustrates why. I encourage everyone to look into Grover Furr's work, censured by narrow minds like Imperator. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.85.88.141 (talk) 07:58, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

I have not read this book but I reflect that a Stalinist like Mr Ilyukin could have a vested interest in deflecting criticism or blame that gets put to Stalin's regime, so I would question what he has to say as well.Cloptonson (talk) 09:40, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

There's no such thing as Stalinism, Wikipedia's point of view notwithstanding. If 100 historians attack the hegemony's enemy, and one defends him at great personal cost, does that make the latter less truthful or credible than the former? Jesus Christ, man. 2607:FEA8:BFA0:BD0:FDAB:DE17:63D:1386 (talk) 05:25, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Katyn denial redirects here, but the topic is not discussed in the article. A section about such revisionist views could be added, IMHO. What do you think, User:Buidhe? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:02, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Piotrus, I don't object to that but it has to be written from a non-Fringe perspective. (t · c) buidhe 07:18, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't consider it a fringe perspective, it's commonly accepted among many groups. It's also significantly more accurate - it should at least get a mention, and the credibility contained within it warrants the page at least giving the potential for doubt. Instead of saying "this absolutely without a doubt happened", it should outline the disagreement, giving both sides. At least acknowledge opposition exists instead of completely shutting it down. We aren't here to debate whether it happened or not, we should be showing a broad range of opinion. This isn't Simple English Wikipedia, we aren't here to give a summary of one source. 47.145.96.69 (talk) 02:10, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Nonsense. Furr's writings are considered fringe at best. The only "groups" that accept his writings are fringe groups. Binksternet (talk) 15:45, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

František Hájek

Is he sufficiently notable for his article to be translated from the Czech? Jackiespeel (talk) 11:44, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

[1] ttps://www.reuters.com/article/us-security-wikipedia-idUSN1642896020070816

[1]