Talk:Katherine Delmar Burke School/Archive 1
 | This is an archive of past discussions about Katherine Delmar Burke School. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
| Archive 1 |
Flooding by IP 2601 (Feb. 8 – Feb. 11, 2022)
| WP:BECONCISE Content refactored by twsabin 20:19, 11 February 2022 (UTC) | ||||
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||||
[h3 – inserted][h4 – inserted]February notes on deletions on pageNotes from the talk on a recent IP address that did a mass delete in early February: February 2022 Information icon Hello, I'm Maylingoed. I noticed that you recently removed content from Katherine Delmar Burke School without adequately explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an accurate edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the removed content has been restored. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks. ~~mAyLiNgOeEd (Talk to me!🗣) (See what else I did on Wikipedia!!📜) 01:25, 8 February 2022 (UTC) If this is a shared IP address, and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider creating an account for yourself or logging in with an existing account so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices. Information icon Please do not remove content or templates from pages on Wikipedia, as you did to Katherine Delmar Burke School, without giving a valid reason for the removal in the edit summary. Your content removal does not appear to be constructive and has been reverted. If you only meant to make a test edit, please use the sandbox for that. Thank you. ~~mAyLiNgOeEd (Talk to me!🗣) (See what else I did on Wikipedia!!📜) 01:30, 8 February 2022 (UTC) If this is a shared IP address, and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider creating an account for yourself or logging in with an existing account so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:645:8300:C6D0:218B:643D:B483:7A12 (talk) 17:06, 8 February 2022 (UTC) Editing war on February 8 (when the page got 2500 page views up from 500 the day before and a usual 80-100)FEB 8 This rollbacks without any reason given continues and the material pasted below was deleted without any reason and then restored. This is well sourced important info. Parent and alumnae communities[edit] With this set-up, the issues of parents wielding control is important to the future of the school that like it's peer schools has seen an increase in parents that bully (and alumnnae parents in this case similar to Miss Porters).[43] The article refers to three types of bullying parents -- the Righteous Crusader, the Entitled Intimidator, and the Vicious Gossip -- and in the case of alumnae parents the last two fit the profile of some high-society parents who place reputation above safety in some situations highlighted in this California Association of Independent School training[44]. The Vicious Gossip is known in the independent school community as the writer Rob Evans summarizes: "The Vicious Gossip has what we psychologists call a character problem, one that plays itself out in continually finding fault with the school or with teachers and broadcasting her complaints, often to a group of vigilantes that she recruits. Sometimes she has a valid concern and has identified a genuine teacher weakness or administrative failing. It is her exaggeration of the issue—the relentless, destructive quality of her storytelling to other parents, her repeated gathering of what Richard Chait, professor at the Harvard Graduate School of Education, has called the 'Volvo caucus in the parking lot'—that qualifies it as bullying. We have both talked with teachers who have been victims of such campaigns and who end up feeling defamed and victimized."[45] While at Burke's the cars are more likely Mercedes sedans than Volvos (status matters in this culture), the parents who bully is an issue that needs to be addressed. This alumnae newsletter from 2011[46] shows the school how it was in an older permutation (cultures at schools take about ten years to change). The tax returns from that year reveal a different place where the head was paid $355,287 (comparable to peer schools at the time) and the school tuition was almost half of what it is now.[47] Values and alignment with economic realities[edit] Yet, the economic inclusion is questionable as it is in many independent schools these days, the most prominently discussed being Brentwood School also in California.[57] This is a moment in the "culture wars" as the article in Los Angeles magazine where schools that exist as exclusive (elite private schools) are now trying to rebrand themselves as inclusive when financially for the operation of many independent schools that isn't possible. Burke's values from the web page that says their commitments reads, "As a longstanding institution in San Francisco and the Bay Area, Burke's espouses the values of our community. These include a dedication to community engagement, the desire to make our school as equitable and welcoming as possible to all kinds of families and students across the city, a responsibility to operating as green and sustainable as possible, and embracing a healthy lifestyle."[58] In these times when the school costs $41,000 for new families, alumnae from the 1980s and 1990s that did not become Burke's parents have openly questioned WHEN is it possible for modern-day Burke's to be equitable and welcoming to all kinds of people. Without a real HOW for making that happen (boarding school Phillips Exeter recently determined to stay need blind[59] and Lick Wilmerding has managed to have a flexible tuition model[60]) where Burke's is not flexible and also not need blind) this is an empty value in that it's likely not possible. Please stay vigilant to censorship and rollbacks of reliable info. Thanks Wikipedia editors! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:645:8300:C6D0:218B:643D:B483:7A12 (talk) 19:52, 8 February 2022 (UTC) Conversation between wikipedia editors starts to break downHi Willanon @willondon (again wrong handle, old info)-- I went in and made suggested edits. I appreciate the time you've given this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:645:8300:C6D0:218B:643D:B483:7A12 (talk) 20:34, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
Primary sourcesRight now the wiki is criticized for having too many primary sources when previously secondary sources (that were relevant) were edited out. They include Vanity Fair, Blue Bloods and Billionaires; a book about Alma Spreckles; Nob Hill Gazette coverage; not re-adding since it won't stick. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:645:8300:C6D0:218B:643D:B483:7A12 (talk) 22:58, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
Yikes, I do not like the inferences on saying that primary sources aren't the best sources of info (this is info basic 101). I do know this is a crowdsourced encyclopedia, but more is being taken away than is being added. At one point there were many secondary sources, some of which are added back, and I also added a tertiary (historical newsletter that has the school newspaper). ProPublica is the tax forms -- extremely valuable for info on any school -- the school's site is also what it states as fact and instagram was to the school's instagram -- also a reliable source. I will try and stay away for a bit and see what sticks. The page is attracting attention so censorship is against the goal of any media site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 23:42, 8 February 2022 (UTC) Contention between primary and secondary sources; the next morning (today, February 9) secondary sources criticized as too much
Response: Huh. I was adding secondary sources without commenting. This is a pretty strict interpretation. I did review the materials mentioned and am now more familiar with the editorial decision making process. Thanks to another commentator for pointing that out. I do not understand why you said my reference to this page pointed to a Wikipedia editor saying to make it Burke's focused with sources that show that. I did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 01:39, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
2601:645:8300:C6D0:CB8:C178:4DA7:9C49 (talk) 01:39, 10 February 2022 (UTC) Wikipedia policy on sourcingI am reviewing again the primary sourcing rules you suggested Willondon and some other comments. First, this page already is a stub that has been determined to be low-quality in the last review. You commented to me in a message that it might be left a stub, but in fact I was fleshing out a stub with primary sources that meet Wikipedia's conditions posted below: Policy:
Trending toward consensus
@willondon (this was yesterday but I got your name wrong.) I read these articles already and was referencing them. Please be specific in your sources that do not qualify. 2601:645:8300:C6D0:CB8:C178:4DA7:9C49 (talk) 01:43, 10 February 2022 (UTC) Defense of primary sources used; questionable editing hereIn earlier iterations there were secondary sources that were removed and then added back in. The primary sources I used DO meet the criterial. The synthesis I was adding was then echoed in San Francisco Chronicle articles that I added in as secondary sources and quoted from that.
I believe the edits made Feb 8 were nit-picking to delete unfavorable information when the article is being balanced and fleshed out to be what Wikipedia wants -- crowdsourced reliable info that people look at 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 18:21, 9 February 2022 (UTC) page protectionFebruary 9 this page was marked for page protection with only admin editing. There are some grammatical mistakes I went in to fix before that. February 8 the page was seen by 2500 people when it was 500 the day before and usually more like 100. So the new info is getting noticed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 15:45, 9 February 2022 (UTC) Sources and bad editsFor the sources that weren't allowed, key ones were communications from the school including a recent job posting that's circulating on LinkedIn. https://www.burkes.org/list-detail?pk=190626&fromId=172934 This shows some key content including that the position is expected to "manage a portfolio of donors" which wasn't quoted but this new position perfectly shows the changes at the school. (The position is now completely in fundraising where before it was Director of Alumnae). This follows the type of content that was being censored during the edit war that led to the page being protected and only edited by admin. (There are typos but I figure admin can do that). Here are some of those sources in case anyone later wants to look them over or add them back in: https://www.sfgate.com/education/article/Agonizing-over-S-F-school-options-3-families-2644429.php https://issuu.com/burkesschool/docs/kdbs_2017_kdbs_0925 https://issuu.com/burkesschool/docs/burkes_magazine_spring_2020 http://www.robevans.org/Pages/articles/Parents-Who-Bully-the-School.htm https://sais.org/resource/webinar-recording-responding-to-student-abuse-concerns/ https://www.apa.org/topics/bullying/prevent 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 16:23, 9 February 2022 (UTC) --- Edits that took out good infoThe school traditions[2] were different in 2012 -- no snake dance that has become a yearly event under the new leadership -- and also more room for real equity and equality between students than there is when the school is reliant on some families for its very survival as it may be now.
Also SineBot and Willondon please see that in fact Willandon asks me to add material specifically tailored to Burke's, and I do, and then that gets taken down as being too much primary sourcing when in fact the Burke's alum magazine is a secondary source. The admin at Wikipedia asked us to hash this out on talk. I asked yesterday during the "edit war" that Willondon in particular try talk before just reverting. I had appreciated the time Willondon was giving, but now looking over what that user censored, I am concerned. Please do explain this is a real world way, as in, how would you explain this to students at the school? Creepy coaches don't apply since they are someone else's hire? This is real. I have italicized some of the removed content to make them stand out.
IP address removals arguing that the national organization that the school belongs to aren't relevant to the school, they areAlso the paragraph pasted below was taken out by an IP address that stated repeatedly that NAIS issues (the national organization that the accrediting agency belongs to) is not relevant to Burke's. Graduates know this is relevant as does the larger independent school community. Burke's has experienced the same trends other schools have in the independent system, and one of them is the increase in parent bullying that's described in the accrediting agency's national counterpart NAIS and the story is "Parents who Bully the School."[3] As Paul Tough the New York Times writer states, in public schools the consumer is society and in private school it is the parents. At Burke's some parents are also alumnae, and the rough culture of the 1980s where alums say there was little social and emotional intelligence training, does re-emerge with the same people (former students) taking on a similar role to the bullying dynamics that were notorious in the 1980s and 1990s. Also, this paragraph has real reference to an all-girls school environment (other secondary sources Raising Ophelia; Odd Girl Out; Queen Bees and Wannabes) The issues described in fiction and alumnae conversations are similar to the Miss Porter's School that is known for exclusivity and a group of girls who are allowed to intimidate younger girls.[4] Alumnae parents will insist on the old social structure with the "Oprichniki" at Miss Porter's reappearing. A recent New York Times article on Taft made the same observation that issues will come back continually -- with Taft it was racism and classism, with Miss Porter's it's cruelty and bullying.[5] 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 16:39, 9 February 2022 (UTC) There was also real resistance to having the head of school's salary listed, which is commonly done. Here's a paragraph that was edited out: The head of school at Burke's is compensated at an unusually high level ($532,753/total annual compensation according to tax forms for 2020)[6] for schools in the area, according to a comparison of the Burke's 2020 tax returns to the Crystal Springs Uplands 2020 tax returns that can be found on propublica.[7] The other head of school who oversees both a high school and a middle school is paid hundreds of thousands of dollars less at $310,610/annual compensation for the same tax year 2020.[8][9][10]. 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 16:42, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 00:26, 10 February 2022 (UTC) References
Section blankingThis was "section blanked" and that's against Wikipedia policy. These are related. I am not sure why (the explanation says it's a separate org with no relation but the last line makes the relation clear and this is factual and covered by local media) but this section was blanked (also not sure what that means) important for censorship concerns. Other peer schools such as University (that was once connected to Burke's and shares a similar culture with many Burke's girls being recruited to play sports at University) have done investigations after #metoo. The University investigation results referenced show the climate at the time, which was similar to Burke's since it was a feeder school to University for many years after they separated locations.[1] The Branson's Covington Report led to the University investigation since there is crossover in employment and access at the independent schools.[2][3] Burke's who shares the same legal counsel Folger Levin.[4][5] The coaches in particular were connected to Burke's school since the girls would be recruited to play athletics at these schools and were also preyed upon by the same perpetrators named in the peer school reports.[6] 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 16:44, 9 February 2022 (UTC) Legal info erased that was relevant - no reason givenThe long-time attorney of National Association of Independent Schools NAIS (the national organization) Debra Wilson recently left the organization and explained in a training at her new accreditation group that part of the reason was the ongoing crisis in this system, particularly around hot button issues such as educator sexual misconduct. [7] NAIS oversees California Association of Independent Schools that is Burke's accrediting agency. The issues that Wilson brings to the fore in late 2021 (after switching organizations) are critical to concerns at Burke's and include crisis management lacking. At the new accrediting agency, Wilson focuses on prevention because of the life-long damage that educator boundary issues can cause in students as shown in the recent Redlands (public system in California) grand jury statement has shown. [8] 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 16:46, 9 February 2022 (UTC) 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 16:47, 9 February 2022 (UTC) References
Relevant community material removed wholesale without discussionI did ask yesterday that talk be used rather than just deleting large sections of reliable info: "In the case of alumnae parents, parents who bully typifies recent rumor spreading among the community. The Entitled Intimidator and the Vicious Gossip subcategories of parents also existed among the student population in the 1980s and the same cliques remain in power as alumnae. This can mean that some high-society parents who place reputation above safety in some situations highlighted in this California Association of Independent School training[1]. This alumnae newsletter from 2011[2] shows the school how it was in an older permutation (cultures at schools take about ten years to change). The tax returns from that year reveal a different place where the head was paid $355,287 (comparable to peer schools at the time) and the school tuition was almost half of what it is now.[3] In the 2010s, Michael Thomas who was a co-author of the "Parents Who Bully" wrote back in 1996[4] about the Volvo caucus and its relation to fear: Fear infects the relationship between independent school teachers and independent school parents ─ a fear that is often denied and only painfully approached. I see evidence of this fear throughout the independent school world, no matter how much a particular school may say it is a “community,” or “like family.” Parent-teacher relationships, even when good, are less than they could be because of the latent fear between the parties. Heads of school often feel caught between the two, criticized by teachers for favoring parents, criticized by parents for being insufficiently responsive, or too protective of mediocre faculty. Parents often feel subtly ─ or not too subtly ─ excluded from schools. Teachers feel chronically on trial in front of parents, and worried about what is being said about them in the parking lot by members of what has been called “the Volvo caucus. 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 16:49, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
References
Peer school section taken out completely without discussionYou'll notice there's a theme in what was reverted yesterday, and these are critical issues. My hope is when the protection is taken off in about five days that this record allows for sourced reintegration. There was only me adding and many people deleting; that's not an edit war,
2601:645:8300:C6D0:CB8:C178:4DA7:9C49 (talk) 01:00, 10 February 2022 (UTC) Peer schoolsOther peer schools such as University (that was once connected to Burke's and shares a similar culture with many Burke's girls being recruited to play sports at University) have done investigations after #metoo. The University investigation results referenced show the climate at the time, which was similar to Burke's since it was a feeder school to University for many years after they separated locations.[1] The Branson's Covington Report led to the University investigation since there is crossover in employment and access at the independent schools.[2][3] Burke's who shares the same legal counsel Folger Levin.[4][5] The coaches in particular were connected to Burke's school since the girls would be recruited to play athletics at these schools and were also preyed upon by the same perpetrators named in the peer school reports.[6]'' 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 16:51, 9 February 2022 (UTC) Another deletionYesterday users basically deleted the same relevant info over and over. If you look at the deleted content, you'll see the trend.
Legal issues in the independent schoolsThe long-time attorney of NAIS (the national organization) Debra Wilson recently left the organization and explained in a training at her new accreditation group that part of the reason was the ongoing crisis in this system, particularly around hot button issues such as educator sexual misconduct. [7] At the new accrediting agency, Wilson focuses on prevention because of the life-long damage that educator boundary issues can cause in students as shown in the recent Redlands (public system in California) grand jury statement has shown. [8] While the recent changes in Title IX have made sexual harassment something that can't be ignored, [9] this does not apply to independent schools unless they have taken federal funds. In 2018 independent schools created a Prevention and Response Task Force Report to provide guidelines for private schools, yet this does not have much accountability built in to the system. [10]' 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 16:53, 9 February 2022 (UTC) Deletion of statement about anti-bullying materialThe silencing of real issues is concerning. This was also erased yesterday by Willanon (I believe) A search on the schools' web site using the word "bully" brings up very little by way of any anti-bullying materials.[11] 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 16:56, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
Another deletionYesterday users basically deleted the same relevant info over and over. If you look at the deleted content, you'll see the trend. Legal issues in the independent schoolsThe long-time attorney of NAIS (the national organization) Debra Wilson recently left the organization and explained in a training at her new accreditation group that part of the reason was the ongoing crisis in this system, particularly around hot button issues such as educator sexual misconduct. [12] At the new accrediting agency, Wilson focuses on prevention because of the life-long damage that educator boundary issues can cause in students as shown in the recent Redlands (public system in California) grand jury statement has shown. [13] While the recent changes in Title IX have made sexual harassment something that can't be ignored, [14] this does not apply to independent schools unless they have taken federal funds. In 2018 independent schools created a Prevention and Response Task Force Report to provide guidelines for private schools, yet this does not have much accountability built in to the system. [15] 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 16:56, 9 February 2022 (UTC) Another deletion on bullyingAn IP address said this is commentary; it's not -- do not harm as an educator's ethos is well known A former upper school head's blog about bullying in 2018[16] that referenced a Rosetta Lee training [17]. The Rosetta Lee training did show the classic girls' school bullying (especially in middle school) and used modern-day terms like indirect aggression and relational aggression as well as class-based bullying. The American Psychological Association has tips for bullying and parenting, but this is tough if the school is not aligned with a do no harm ethos.[18] References
More Wikipedia policyRepeated reversions are contrary to Wikipedia policy under Edit warring, except for specific policy-based material (such as BLP exceptions) and for reversions of vandalism. Edit summaries are useful, but do not try to discuss disputes across multiple edit summaries; that is generally viewed as edit warring and may incur sanctions. This is from thorough editing on the consensus page. Consensus is needed for further edits now that there's been warring on the page. - Please note that the school Burkestalk, Willondon, and another editor made repeated reversions Consensus defined: A consensus decision takes into account all of the proper concerns raised. Ideally, it arrives with an absence of objections, but often we must settle for as wide an agreement as can be reached. When there is no wide agreement, consensus-building involves adapting the proposal to bring in dissenters without losing those who accepted the initial proposal.
I am learning and appreciate the tips. @willondon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 19:22, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
Thorough editing section of WikipediaHere is the whole thorough editing section: Wikipedia consensus usually occurs implicitly. An edit has presumed consensus unless it is disputed or reverted. Should another editor revise that edit then the new edit will have presumed consensus unless it meets with disagreement. In this way, the encyclopedia gradually improves over time. All edits should be explained[under discussion] (unless the reason for them is obvious[under discussion])—either by clear edit summaries, or by discussion on the associated talk page. Substantive, informative explanations indicate what issues need to be addressed in subsequent efforts to reach consensus. Explanations are especially important when reverting another editor's good faith work. Except in cases affected by content policies or guidelines, most disputes over content may be resolved through minor changes rather than taking an all-or-nothing position. If your first edit is reverted, try to think of a compromise edit that addresses the other editor's concerns. If you can't, or if you do and your second edit is reverted, create a new section on the associated talk page to discuss the dispute. Be bold, but not rash. Whether changes come through editing or through discussion, the encyclopedia is best improved through collaboration and consensus, not through combat and capitulation. Repeated reversions are contrary to Wikipedia policy under Edit warring, except for specific policy-based material (such as BLP exceptions) and for reversions of vandalism. Edit summaries are useful, but do not try to discuss disputes across multiple edit summaries; that is generally viewed as edit warring and may incur sanctions. Area for response in order to reach consensus; editors please respond below
- The editing has been all or nothing; you can see that in the copy that I restored on the talk page. - I asked for edits to go through talk and that wasn't granted. I was available all yesterday for consensus. This page protection is for how the page was edited yesterday. No one *else* contributed content. This IP address contributed 17,000 words that have been axed repeatedly.
Word CountThe count on the actual article is now 1800 words, which would start to qualify it as NOT being stub status. Please consider the quality of what was created before doing anything rash. Bold but not rash. 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 18:55, 9 February 2022 (UTC) Other edits that one user considers bad (and this user created the content)curprev 00:15, 9 February 2022 50.201.237.202 talk 19,617 bytes −756 →Modern-day Burke's: using a former graduates own calculations in this type of setting is not a proper source. A user is citing their own personal conversations as fact. Tag: Visual edit In fact this is OK as original research since it's a calculation. This was an important point that I'd argue to be restored. curprev 22:44, 8 February 2022 2601:645:8300:c6d0:218b:643d:b483:7a12 talk 19,621 bytes +16 An error was inserted here where the other user made the headline "Professional Development" and yet this was a training for parents Tag: Reverted curprev 22:42, 8 February 2022 2601:645:8300:c6d0:218b:643d:b483:7a12 talk 19,605 bytes −402 →Tuition: note that the past edits made the article read strangely and Burke's tax info was removed while Crystal Springs was kept up (including the HOS salary that is much less than Burke's) These are facts Tags: Reverted references removed curprev 21:49, 8 February 2022 50.201.237.202 talk 21,624 bytes −153 →Bullying: edited this topic, this commentary is about a professional development opportunity. also deleted "The American Psychological Association has tips for bullying and parenting, but this is tough if the school is not aligned with a do no harm ethos." as this is clearly commentary and not fact. Tags: Visual edit references removed — Preceding unsigned comment added by curprev 20:49, 8 February 2022 50.201.237.202 talk 29,026 bytes −1,122 →Legal issues in independent schools: not relevant to topic. About a separate organization Tags: Visual edit section blanking curprev 22:26, 8 February 2022 2601:645:8300:c6d0:218b:643d:b483:7a12 talk 21,752 bytes +1,412 →Culture: changed section to show relevance of job listing (primary source from Burke's as wikipedia editors requested) TALK is ready for this if this user wants to engage with the Wikipedia editors Tag: Reverted curprev 23:06, 8 February 2022 2601:645:8300:c6d0:218b:643d:b483:7a12 talk 19,747 bytes −8 This is not professional development; someone is inserting errors with their edits today; also note the page views are 500 where usually they are more like 100 curprev 00:15, 9 February 2022 50.201.237.202 talk 19,617 bytes −756 →Modern-day Burke's: using a former graduates own calculations in this type of setting is not a proper source. A user is citing their own personal conversations as fact. Tag: Visual edit ::WP:CALC/WP:Routine calculation Material here that is relevant and not original research since it is a calculation: Many alumnae determined because of the rising costs, they simply couldn't afford the school. [1] Families have found the Catholic schools more affordable if they've needed to leave the public schools in San Francisco for a private alternative. Notre Dame Vivitore, which is a competitor for families, is $27,070 for three plus children, making it a clearly more affordable option with individual tuition being $10,390.[2] This is what Burke's tuition would have been if you account for inflation from the 1980s tuition of $5,000. (That tuition amount is remembered by alumnae and often discussed in the private school affordability conversations.) 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 19:45, 9 February 2022 (UTC) References Material removed that had a purposeThere's a long history at Burke's and it often celebrates the lineages in the school magazine. In historical documents, the school newspapers still exist [1]. These lineages have a downside and similar to Miss Porter's school that attracted press attention for a "mean girl lawsuit" there are alumnae who have special privileges and always have at Burke's. The school magazine will show any number of the lineage stories. [2] The recent job posting also shows an important shift in the culture. There is a new role that's the Associate Director of Advancement and this is a role about alumnae relations that used to be separate from the fundraising arm. [3] This role is described as "The Associate Director of Advancement is responsible for the Burke’s Annual Fund, Alumnae Relations, Eighth Grade Class Gift, and oversight of an Advancement Associate. This role will ensure a timely and successful Annual Fund, Class Gift and Alumnae Relations program, while focusing on growing the culture of philanthropy at the school." Previously there was a Director of Alumnae who did not pressure alum to fundraise until a shift in the 2010s. This trend can be seen in the old school magazines available at issue.com under burkesschool as well as in the "loyals" who this new role oversees and these individuals (many alumnae and many from brand name families) are to be taken care of in a way a normal volunteer isn't, as shown in the recent job description. (Undid revision 1070716190 by 2601:645:8300:C6D0:218B:643D:B483:7A12 (talk); original research; not heeding guidelines at Primary, secondary and tertiary sources) curprev 21:46, 8 February 2022 50.201.237.202 talk 21,777 bytes −788 →Culture: removed the commentary from NAIS about bullying in schools. Again, this is not relevant to the topic of Burke's Tag: Visual edit Burke's has experienced the same trends other schools have in the independent system, and one of them is the increase in parent bullying that's described in the accrediting agency's national counterpart NAIS and the story is "Parents who Bully the School."[4] As Paul Tough the New York Times writer states, in public schools the consumer is society and in private school it is the parents. At Burke's some parents are also alumnae, and the rough culture of the 1980s where alums say there was little social and emotional intelligence training, does re-emerge with the same people (former students) taking on a similar role to the bullying dynamics that were notorious in the 1980s and 1990s. Yet, the economic inclusion is questionable as it is in many independent schools these days, the most prominently discussed being Brentwood School also in California.[5] This is a moment in the "culture wars" as the article in Los Angeles magazine where schools that exist as exclusive (elite private schools) are now trying to rebrand themselves as inclusive when financially for the operation of many independent schools that isn't possible. Burke's values from the web page that says their commitments reads, "As a longstanding institution in San Francisco and the Bay Area, Burke's espouses the values of our community. These include a dedication to community engagement, the desire to make our school as equitable and welcoming as possible to all kinds of families and students across the city, a responsibility to operating as green and sustainable as possible, and embracing a healthy lifestyle."[6] Many alumnae determined because of the rising costs, they simply couldn't afford the school. [7] Families have found the Catholic schools more affordable if they've needed to leave the public schools in San Francisco for a private alternative. Notre Dame Vivitore, which is a competitor for families, is $27,070 for three plus children, making it a clearly more affordable option with individual tuition being $10,390.[8] This is what Burke's tuition would have been if you account for inflation from the 1980s tuition of $5,000. (That tuition amount is remembered by alumnae and often discussed in the private school affordability conversations.) @willanon funny story about your name; that will help me remember. you are correct it was not you that said the snake dance still exists. i was wrong there. i am also not a wikipedia editor. i do appreciate your time and tips. thanks and have a great day. @willondon - I got confused at first. I am getting the hand of it. Geneaology is actually a tertiary source and a encyclopedia-like entry of the school's student newspaper. 2601:645:8300:C6D0:CB8:C178:4DA7:9C49 (talk) 00:56, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 20:13, 9 February 2022 (UTC) References
Contentious areas- This did remain in but there was a lot of criticism about adding the head of school salary although that's standard practice in the media curprev 23:16, 8 February 2022 2601:645:8300:c6d0:218b:643d:b483:7a12 talk 20,091 bytes +172 →Modern-day Burke's: the heads salary is sourced, critical info; someone said this was commenting on random people's salaries; no, this would be used in any media article 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 19:54, 9 February 2022 (UTC) Snake dance Edit removed This alumnae newsletter from 2011[1] shows the school how it was in an older permutation (cultures at schools take about ten years to change). The tax returns from that year reveal a different place where the head was paid $355,287 (comparable to peer schools at the time) and the school tuition was almost half of what it is now.[2] The school traditions[3] were different -- no snake dance that has become a yearly event under the new leadership -- and also more room for real equity and equality between students than there is when the school is reliant on some families for its very survival as it may be now. The snake dance is described on the "traditions" page on the web site as part of the "Lower School Picnic Also in the same removal In these times when the school costs $41,000 for new families, alumnae that did not become parents have openly questioned WHEN is that possible for modern-day Burke's to be equitable and welcome? Without a real HOW for making that happen (boarding school Phillips Exeter recently determined to stay need blind and Lick Wilmerding has managed to have a flexible tuition model where Burke's is not flexible and also not need blind) this is an empty value in that it's likely not possible.[4] Families have found the Catholic schools more affordable if they've needed to leave the public schools in San Francisco for a private alternative. Notre Dame Vivitore, which is a competitor for families, is $27,070 for three plus children, making it a clearly more affordable option.[5] Material about the editor (no reason given here in this line) Revision as of 18:45, 7 February 2022 (view source) 2601:645:8300:c6d0:c95a:6797:24d7:41c1 (talk) (→Modern-day) ← Previous edit 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 20:08, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
References
Changes to be made
Reviewing talk page protocol and practicesTo prevent this talk page from becoming a confusing mess in the future, I reiterate some key features from Help:Talk pages:
As I've said before, going forward, I won't be wasting my time fixing talk page edits that don't conform to those policies. Plenty of time and space has been devoted to guiding users to the appropriate help. And I've been patient. I will simply be reverting them with the edit summary "malformed"
2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 23:16, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 9 February 2022
reads now: In 2007, San Francisco Magazine published a story, "Schools Gone Wild" that quoted the former head of school David Fleishhacker[17] as saying, “All schools have edifice complexes,” says David Fleishhacker, who headed Katherine Burke for 25 years, beginning in 1970. Should read: In 2007, San Francisco Magazine published a story, "Schools Gone Wild" that quoted the former head of school David Fleishhacker[17] as saying, “All schools have edifice complexes” Fleishhacker headed Katherine Burke for 25 years beginning in 1970 and wrote a book on this history of the school, "All Hail With Joyous Voices." For: Sentence structure and grammar; plus secondary sourcing ALSO 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 22:59, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 9 February 2022 (2)
reads now: A culture of a school is said to change about every ten years, and with the almost doubling of tuition in the last decade along with modernizations in the view of gender, Burke's does change throughout time. should read: A culture of a school is said to change about every ten years, and with steep increase in tuition in the last decade along with modernizations in the view of gender, Burke's does change throughout time. For: Mistake inserted with multiple edits 2601:645:8300:C6D0:39DE:441A:6FC4:3C5 (talk) 23:00, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
consensus pointsPulling from the discussions, area that need consensus:
@willondon please help build consensus. I saw your editing philosophy involves rollbacks etc. Please note that's not considered thorough editing. 2601:645:8300:C6D0:A104:3550:2B65:EF1 (talk) 16:44, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
possible language to be includedAccreditation Now reads: Burke's is accredited by the California Association of Independent Schools. Copy to add: This is part of the National Association of Independent Schools that publishes the Independent School magazine [1] [2] 2601:645:8300:C6D0:A104:3550:2B65:EF1 (talk) 16:21, 10 February 2022 (UTC) Text that was removed from previous versions that can show what's being taken out in the editsOther copy removed from the site May 2021 This school used to be almost a finishing school [3] when it was established by Katherine Delmar Burke however she wanted young women to be college ready. In the hundred years that it existed, the school was always known as a place for "American royalty" (brand name last names and founding families) to go and bond to create society. After the centennial, there were many leadership changes and different visions for the school. Most recently the school boasts about [4] inclusivity while still costing $40,000[5] for both kindergarten and upper school. Also in the past two decades, many alum have written and spoken about their experiences with mean girls a concept popularized recently. The luncheons in recent years have been held at the exclusive all-women's Metropolitan Club where a distinguished alum from the early years gave a speech all about how her class was mean girls from start to finish at UHS. This is also recently discussed with legitimate alums who are also now authors mentioning this was their experience on the school's yelp page.[6] One wrote in 2012, "When someone loves a book, they will often write that they 'love love love' the book. Well I hate hate hated Burkes. Like a few others here, I did not have a remotely positive experience there. Talk about mean girls! I've never been in a world where money and status mattered so much, and I think it's pretty sad that this should be true in elementary school. I have spoken with many successful grads who unanimously agree that we'd never in a million years subject a daughter to this place. I had a son, so it's not an issue, but I think it's telling that after a few decades, I still shudder at the thought of my time at Burkes, which was hands down the most miserable part of my mostly happy education." 1929 – Katherine Delmar Burke dies in Egypt[7]; The charitable work of Burke's alumnae (sometimes scion) is noted in local papers like the San Francisco Chronicle that wrote "Levi's heir remakes long-shutter Presidio Theatre for its new life" [8]. References
Exact text January 2022Evolution The school has undergone many changes and the issues of classism, mean girls, and wealth influencing leadership are detailed on the site GreatSchools.net that is a reliable source of public opinion.[5] One recent parent suggested on the site that the school leadership now is in the hands of wealthy donors, which is worth consideration as a reliable source. Others on the site say that class issues were part of Burke's past but not its present. Some reliable media sources such as Vanity Fair describe the social set that Burke's appeals strongly to in the article Blue Bloods and Billionaires from 2013.[6] Other reliable works that speak to the social milieu around Burke's is Oh, the Glory of It All by Sean Wilsey.[7] The Nob Hill Gazette[8] often chronicles the upper crust that traditionally went to Burke's and then University and Stanford, once described in San Francisco magazine as the Jet Set. While the school is small with an enrollment of 400 in K-8, it exists with the other private girls schools in San Francisco such as Hamlin's (the rival) and Convent of the Sacred Heart. Other schools refer to the Burke's girls as "Burke's Jerks." According to their tax forms, the school gave out $1.9 million in financial aid in the tax year 2019. Yet the cost of $40,000 a year is cost prohibitive to all but the elite.[9] The leadership is also paid well ($532,753 in compensation for the tax year ending in 2020) compared to other schools[10] in the region.[11] One of the leadership's crowning glories has been in the introduction of pants as part of the girls' uniform options. The all-girls school has seen gender differently for decades and now is gender inclusive.[12] Modern day While Burke's has always been a traditional school, now in its 100 plus years, and now is more progressive—some recently started to question if the school keeps up with the modern-day requirements of public schools. As many schools locally stage walk-outs,[13] Burke's has been known to ignore serious issues such as bullying[14] and other ways students and community members can be harmed[15] as reported on at sites like niche[16] and other reliable user generated content from students, parents, and alum. There's been a long-standing issue with mean girls that the school can't ever get a grasp on, probably because of the socio-economic realities of a school that costs $40,000.[citation needed] In the 1980s it was $5,000 and with inflation would be $11,000 now.[citation needed] A student wrote on the school's Facebook page in 2019 that she was "bullied and picked on by teachers. Learning disabilities are HEAVILY frowned upon...It has an extreme 'rich kids are always right' mentality."[citation needed] Another issue is that changes in the public system (such as Title IX enforcements)[17] are not used in the private school since it does not accept federal money.[18]
2601:645:8300:C6D0:A104:3550:2B65:EF1 (talk) 16:27, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 2601:645:8300:C6D0:A104:3550:2B65:EF1 (talk) 16:27, 10 February 2022 (UTC) Other sourcesFrom the Independent School Magazine you have a great secondary source that can provide deep secondary background to the Burke's article since this is the national organization of their accrediting agency. There seemed a real desire to deny this in the warring edits section. The relevant materials that come from here. This month: Board-Head relationships: https://www.nais.org/magazine/independent-school/winter-2022/boardroom-understanding-the-parent-trustee-role/ leads to this great study from Vanderbilt that also backs up that most comparable head of schools make less than Burke's [1] References Parents who Bully articleA previous story that was repeatedly wholesale removed was about "Parents Who Bully" from February, 2016. This is well known in private schools and this secondary source supports any anecdotal evidence coming from the school. [1] This being repeatedly removed is bad form in Wikipedia editing and I'd like consensus for including it. Other sources: Oh the Glory of it All, Sean Wilsey (non-fiction); this covers society and his step-mother Dede Wilsey who is also a supporter of Burke's; Wilsey was also known for pressuring employees in the San Francisco arts community to present her son's work and also to have someone fired, this is known as bullying and it's not her, it's the role that the head of school of any independent school needs to manage (this was covered in the SF Chronicle); Mean moms movie that was meant to come out and didn't but the idea is in common culture with the "Volvo caucus." This is where Miss Porter's as an example of girls schools and how the parent alumnae reinforce the student bullying matters. The schools have overlapping cultures, especially since it's girls school, the Rosetta Lee training offers many sources I've mentioned above as well. (Raising Ophelia; Queen Bees and Wannabes; Odd Girl Out). Also Madeline Levine The Price of Privilege. 2601:645:8300:C6D0:A104:3550:2B65:EF1 (talk) 16:40, 10 February 2022 (UTC) Specific IPs that are needed to help resolveI did find the user who made the comment snake dance still exists (original research) as well as made edits that need to be looked at and consensus agreed. It is this IP 50.201.237.202 The bolds are for emphasis on their own language that was in the history reason lines. The comments indented are mine. This is the source of the edits that need to be reviewed and I did invite the IP user to this page. If they do NOT appear and help discuss, then please consider that this is an unreliable editor and revert the changes made that are critical to consensus. Here are the comments on edits that made this into an edit war:
@willondon I did think this was you and was wrong. Please give this user the same amount of attention you gave my edits. Thank you. 2601:645:8300:C6D0:A104:3550:2B65:EF1 (talk) 17:13, 10 February 2022 (UTC) You will see from the edits and comments that this user needs to be part of the consensus and just deleted, they didn't add or talk to the other editors.
2601:645:8300:C6D0:A104:3550:2B65:EF1 (talk) 16:58, 10 February 2022 (UTC) Consensus with IP address that made edits needing to be reviewedI dropped this IP user a note: Hi, I noticed that you made edits that are now up for consensus at the Katherine Delmar Burke School. Please participate since as this page notes; your wholesale removals were not thorough editing; and other editors are determining what's legitimate. Your participation is needed there to help create consensus. Please participate. Hope that works and there are less destructive edits that are trying to protect the school's reputation without looking at the sources and doing the work of reporting on them as I have done. 2601:645:8300:C6D0:A104:3550:2B65:EF1 (talk) 17:05, 10 February 2022 (UTC) Destructive edits made by one IPHere are the edits that were made that were destructive to the article: The head of school at Burke's is compensated at an unusually high level ($532,753/total annual compensation according to tax forms for 2020)[1] for schools in the area, according to a comparison of the Burke's 2020 tax returns to the Since just that section was removed, the salary and info about the Crystal Springs Uplands head of school (peer school) was left up and made no sense on it's own.2601:645:8300:C6D0:A104:3550:2B65:EF1 (talk) 17:22, 10 February 2022 (UTC) This was removed because it was an opinion piece when that is a reliable secondary source: Burke's sometimes is featured in San Francisco Chronicle pieces about the high costs of education or diversity issues in private schools as in the 2018 article that mentions Burke's about how "White parents need to take responsibility to integrate SF public schools."[2] False reasons were given for the deletion of the snake dance, and the area deleted was accurate, plus this user did original research and must be connected to the school to know that there still is a snake dance: The school traditions[3] were different in 2012 -- no snake dance that has become a yearly event under the new leadership -- and also more room for real equity and equality between students than there is when the school is reliant on some families for its very survival as it may be now. Here this was deleted because "not about the topic at hand" when in fact it is about the culture of elite schools and also the mean girls that Burke's is known for as shown on social media as well as books. The issues described in fiction and alumnae conversations are similar to the Miss Porter's School that is known for exclusivity and a group of girls who are allowed to intimidate younger girls.[4] Alumnae parents will insist on the old social structure with the "Oprichniki" at Miss Porter's reappearing. A recent New York Times article on Taft made the same observation that issues will come back continually -- with Taft it was racism and classism, with Miss Porter's it's cruelty and bullying.[5] This was also said to not be about the topic at hand although it's very much so, bad reasons given to delete good content: Burke's has experienced the same trends other schools have in the independent system, and one of them is the increase in parent bullying that's described in the accrediting agency's national counterpart NAIS and the story is "Parents who Bully the School."[6] As Paul Tough the New York Times writer states, in public schools the consumer is society and in private school it is the parents. At Burke's some parents are also alumnae, and the rough culture of the 1980s where alums say there was little social and emotional intelligence training, does re-emerge with the same people (former students) taking on a similar role to the bullying dynamics that were notorious in the 1980s and 1990s. Another with the same bad reason: One aspect of bullying parents -- divided into three types by the NAIS article in 2016 (The Righteous Crusader, the Entitled Intimidator, and the Vicious Gossip) and they can (especially the vicious gossip) create a mean environment. The article states, "The Vicious Gossip has what we psychologists call a character problem, one that plays itself out in continually finding fault with the school or with teachers and broadcasting her complaints, often to a group of vigilantes that she recruits. Sometimes she has a valid concern and has identified a genuine teacher weakness or administrative failing. It is her exaggeration of the issue — the relentless, destructive quality of her storytelling to other parents, her repeated gathering of what Richard Chait, professor at the Harvard Graduate School of Education, has called the “Volvo caucus in the parking lot” — that qualifies it as bullying. We have both talked with teachers who have been victims of such campaigns and who end up feeling defamed and victimized." Again, here it says citations do not mention "Burke's" while the coaches mentioned recruited from the school and these are well-known feeder schools to Burke's. This is censorship. The user deleted about 10,000 words that day and added none. Will they help with consensus? If not, my assertion is this text should be added back since the reasons given for removal were not sound. Another edit same bad reasoning: Legal issues in independent schools The long-time attorney of National Association of Independent Schools NAIS (the national organization) Debra Wilson recently left the organization and explained in a training at her new accreditation group that part of the reason was the ongoing crisis in this system, particularly around hot button issues such as educator sexual misconduct. [7] NAIS oversees California Association of Independent Schools that is Burke's accrediting agency. The issues that Wilson brings to the fore in late 2021 (after switching organizations) are critical to concerns at Burke's and include crisis management lacking. At the new accrediting agency, Wilson focuses on prevention because of the life-long damage that educator boundary issues can cause in students as shown in the recent Redlands (public system in California) grand jury statement has shown. [8] There's more of the same and if you look at the page, this user also looks to have submitted the puffery that was taken down by @willondon References
Discussion of terms esp. destructive edit2601:645:8300:C6D0:A104:3550:2B65:EF1 (talk) 17:31, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
2601:645:8300:C6D0:9097:AB7E:6821:8D97 (talk) 01:50, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 2601:645:8300:C6D0:A131:C108:9102:687B (talk) 20:41, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
I don't wish any of that to sound threatening or daunting, but that's the reality of it. You will endure by taking things slowly, by assuming not much more than good faith, and by listening quietly and carefully. Sincerely signed, Willondon (talk) 03:16, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
References Path forwardMy suggestion is restoring the wholesale and destructive edits when the protective period ends. I'll wait to see if the IP user (who it's possible is an acquaintance and is definitely connected to Burke's) comes to talk to explain why they made the edits besides protecting reputation. The national magazine of Independent Schools that goes to every Burke's admin and reflects their population is certainly a credible secondary source that has shown the issues in the school. "Parents who Bully" (article with types) deserves to be mentioned. It is backed up by "Oh the Glory of It All" by Sean Wilsey as well as other secondary sources that have written about independent schools as well as specific people who are supporters of Burke's. The job description posted that this user removed clearly shows a preference for the "loyals" and the responsibility of a position in the school to manage a profile of donors and keep them happy above others and even other alumnae volunteers. The belongs on Wikipedia as it's accurate, real, and supported. Plus the destructive edits came from a user who isn't engaging with the talk page despite that suggestion being made on February 8. 2601:645:8300:C6D0:A104:3550:2B65:EF1 (talk) 18:02, 10 February 2022 (UTC) More sources on independent school bullyingThis says NAIS aims to be the national voice for independent schools and talks about the Seattle Girls School situation https://news.jrn.msu.edu/bullying/2012/04/01/private-school-bullying/
More sources on girls' schoolsWhere Girls Come First: The Rise, Fall, and Surprising Revival of Girls' Schools by Ilana DeBare 2601:645:8300:C6D0:A131:C108:9102:687B (talk) 18:45, 10 February 2022 (UTC) Race to Nowhere, Documentary, featuring Hamlin's and Town school -- at 400 a class, they really do form a small world https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1437364/ Long-time rivalry between Burke's and Hamlin's featured in book Big Alma about Alma Spreckles as well from the early 1900s. Says Hamlin's second rate at that time and that girls wanted to be at Miss Burke's. https://www.amazon.com/Big-Alma-Franciscos-Spreckels-1990-10-03/dp/B01F9FXEX0/ref=pd_sbs_1/134-1355660-6629209?pd_rd_w=VXX0N&pf_rd_p=cd718a0c-f7e0-41b6-9f23-6496d85d1998&pf_rd_r=5QQ6N2XYKKCDD6W9QA1E&pd_rd_r=47f7735d-c1d5-4784-b078-1727ebea3c83&pd_rd_wg=y39Hr&pd_rd_i=B01F9FXEX0&psc=1 2601:645:8300:C6D0:9097:AB7E:6821:8D97 (talk) 03:20, 11 February 2022 (UTC) More sources private schoolsNew York Times article -- shows how the mentions of parents in private schools are relevant to the larger culture at hand https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/09/your-money/private-schools-wealthy-parents.html October 2020 The culture and the parent pressure during the coronavirus is newsworthy and deserves mention in the article Relevant sections: Still, these parents are paying tens of thousands of dollars for private Zoom school, and not everyone is happy with that arrangement. In New York, parents at one of the city’s most elite private schools, the Dalton School, which remains remote even when competitors have in-person learning, have begun to complain. This is also bolstered by the Atlantic article by Caitlin Flanagan. The editors who say that the overall culture of private schools right now isn't relevant to Burke's are trying to censor. 2601:645:8300:C6D0:A131:C108:9102:687B (talk) 18:52, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
Books with Burke's mentionsSan Francisco's Pacific Heights and Presidio Heights, Tricia O'Brien, 2008 https://www.google.com/books/edition/San_Francisco_s_Pacific_Heights_and_Pres/J8dEQubtnqYC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=katherine+delmar+burke&printsec=frontcover - This connects it with being part of elite San Francisco and includes early history 2601:645:8300:C6D0:A131:C108:9102:687B (talk) 19:18, 10 February 2022 (UTC) Overloaded and Underprepared: Strategies for Stronger Schools and Healthy Successful Kids Here is evidence that before 2015 climate surveys found stress at the School and they worked to implement mindfulness https://www.google.com/books/edition/Overloaded_and_Underprepared/7XtXCQAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=katherine+delmar+burke&pg=PA154&printsec=frontcover 2601:645:8300:C6D0:A131:C108:9102:687B (talk) 19:17, 10 February 2022 (UTC) History of the San Francisco Bay Region, 1924 https://www.google.com/books/edition/History_of_the_San_Francisco_Bay_Region/rbQzAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=katherine+delmar+burke&pg=PA187&printsec=frontcover 2601:645:8300:C6D0:A131:C108:9102:687B (talk) 19:20, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
Girls on the Edge, 2010 (uses interviews from students and families at Burke's) https://www.google.com/books/edition/Girls_on_the_Edge_The_Four_Factors_Drivi/ftE2j_5dDN8C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=katherine+delmar+burke&pg=PA305&printsec=frontcover 2601:645:8300:C6D0:A131:C108:9102:687B (talk) 19:34, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
To add comment that would be relevant to this research:Potential copy too add once the article is taken off protection2601:645:8300:C6D0:A131:C108:9102:687B (talk) 20:28, 10 February 2022 (UTC) For many years, Burke's was considered a pre-eminent school. With the parochial schools, it and Hamin's school were two of the only private schools in San Francisco in the early twentieth century. The school was nestled in Pacific Heights and the classes were small from the start -- originally starting at the Burke family's house before eventually making it to the Jackson location.[1] The power structure of the school started with Katherine Delmar Burke's mother who was related to the Kennedy family and had run a school. The graduates of her school became part of the city's elite and formed a powerful network as would the Burke's alumnae in years to come.[2] A writer of a definitive work on girls schools identified that Burke's started to shift around the start of the twenty-first century to not being considered as being as coveted a job for a Head of School. This was after the departure of Head of School Kim Wargo for an all-girls school in Houston that was larger and offered more opportunity. When the Head of School changed at the competitor Hamlin's School, Burke's began to take second place in the rankings on academics by reputation -- which was hard for a school that is competitive and cares about reputation. In about 2010, the book "Girls on the Edge: The Four Factors Driving the New Crisis for Girls" by Leonard Sax delved into the areas of sexual identity, the cyberbubble, obsessions, and environmental toxins and used Burke's students and their families as interviews.[3] This shows the changing world for girls and by 2015 a climate survey at Burke's would reveal an underlying stress. The head of school wanted to "do it right" and started a school-wide mindfulness program that's been in effect to date.[4]
2601:645:8300:C6D0:A131:C108:9102:687B (talk) 19:52, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 2601:645:8300:C6D0:A131:C108:9102:687B (talk) 19:49, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 2601:645:8300:C6D0:A131:C108:9102:687B (talk) Example of section blankingHere is a wholesale deletion that the user said was for accuracy. The info is accurate. Section blanking is not thorough editing. This user got notified as is pasted higher in this talk to not do mass deletion without a reason. Then bad reasons started to be given. This is all accurate and it's discouraging for other users if the materials that's been gone over by the wikipedia editors gets cut for bad reasons. Thus why I think this specific user is being destructive and have asked on their page that they join the discussion here to move towards consensus.2601:645:8300:C6D0:A131:C108:9102:687B (talk) 20:38, 10 February 2022 (UTC) Evolution The school has undergone many changes and the issues of classism, mean girls, and wealth influencing leadership are detailed on the site GreatSchools.net that is a reliable source of public opinion.[5] One recent parent suggested on the site that the school leadership now is in the hands of wealthy donors, which is worth consideration as a reliable source. Others on the site say that class issues were part of Burke's past but not its present. Some reliable media sources such as Vanity Fair describe the social set that Burke's appeals strongly to in the article Blue Bloods and Billionaires from 2013.[6] Other reliable works that speak to the social milieu around Burke's is Oh, the Glory of It All by Sean Wilsey.[7] The Nob Hill Gazette[8] often chronicles the upper crust that traditionally went to Burke's and then University and Stanford, once described in San Francisco magazine as the Jet Set. According to their tax forms, the school gave out $1.9 million in financial aid in the tax year 2019. One of the leadership's crowning glories has been in the introduction of pants as part of the girls' uniform options. The all-girls school has seen gender differently for decades and now is gender inclusive.[9] Modern day While Burke's has always been a traditional school, now in its 100 plus years, and now is more progressive—some recently started to question if the school keeps up with the modern-day requirements of public schools. As many schools locally stage walk-outs,[10] Burke's has been known to ignore serious issues such as bullying[11] and other ways students and community members can be harmed[12] as reported on at sites like niche[13] and other reliable user generated content from students, parents, and alum. There's been a long-standing issue with mean girls that the school can't ever get a grasp on, probably because of the socio-economic realities of a school that costs $41,000. This has been shown in the recent article in the Atlantic [14] as well as the recent fiction based on Burke's including "We Run the Tides" by alum Vendela Vida.[15] In the 1980s it was $5,000 and with inflation would be $11,000 now, according to calculations done by an alum using the inflation calculator online. A student wrote on the school's Facebook[16] page in 2019 that she was "bullied and picked on by teachers. Learning disabilities are HEAVILY frowned upon...It has an extreme 'rich kids are always right' mentality." The Facebook page link was added to the reviews here to provide a citation. This concept is well known to the San Francisco extended community. Another issue is that changes in the public system (such as Title IX enforcements)[17] are not used in the private school since it does not accept federal money.[18] The founder Katherine Delmar Burke's phrase was, "I would have the thought of our school in your hearts as a place where the doors are never closed, where the lights are always burning." Recently the school has adopted a more closed approach with the advertised "open campus" often guarded by private security in response to a potential danger in the neighborhood.[19] References
new text that could be addedSince it's in my head, I figured I'd try again for some text to add back in after hashing out the sourcing issue. Potential new content Since Burke's was one of the only private schools in early 1900s San Francisco, its graduates have formed a portion of the city's elite society since the start. There are pictures in the book about Pacific Heights of old families whose children (known as scions) are now students at Burke's. Many "Burke's girls" each year are debutantes and everyone is invited to learn to dance at the MidWeeklies (now in its sixtieth year) with the other private schools in the network. [1][2] "This is the little-known world of the MidWeeklies, an invitation-only dance school for sixth- and seventh-graders. The event marks an important steppingstone in a San Francisco social education, the path to etiquette classes, the Cotillion and eventually to the exclusive Francisca and Pacific-Union clubs," states a San Francisco Chronicle piece from 2011. Mid-weeklies are described as looking like this, from the article, "On a spring afternoon outside the California Club, San Francisco society arrives for an evening affair. Expensive cars pull up to the curb, releasing taffeta-clad ladies in 1-inch heels and white gloves, gentlemen in bow ties and cuff links. The oldest is 13." This is a lesser-seen side of San Francisco, but Burke's girls have been part of it from the start and it's a way to socialize with boys from the "brother school" Town or the other boys schools. Here is the background from the Chronicle story: "The schools whose rosters are used as invitation mailing lists have denied any association with it. Yet for eight nights during the academic year, 400 private-school children in the sixth and seventh grades gather at San Francisco's California Club for the invitation-only dance classes. Everything about the MidWeeklies - its exclusivity and 80-year history, its arcane dress code and wedding-style invitations, the way people shuffle and flinch when its name arises - seems from another era." This forms a small world among the San Francisco private school graduates. There is also notable movement of teachers within the independent schools (they don't offer pensions as rewards for staying like the public school). Later these alumnae may meet again at the Olympic Club or the Metropolitan Club (the once women's equivalent of the Olympic Club when it was all male). The annual Burke's luncheon is at the Metropolitan Club and often there are lineages of women who have gone to the school through the decades as well as past teachers and staff. The school's alumnae magazine also prominently features these alumnae and staff gatherings where there is a photographer known for society functions. The recent job posting for a Associate Director of Advancement to handle alumnae affairs shows the shift in recent years towards fundraising. This position as recently as 2016 was the Director of Annual Giving and Alumnae and wasn't directly in charge of a group of donors as the next position will be. These donors may be "loyals" which is also referenced in the magazine and the web site whose gifts in fact keep the school going. This allows for a rich history with traditional families. It can also make for an isolating experience for those from a different background. Parents and alumnae communities Burke's alumnae newsletter as far back as 2012 listed the number of students of alumnae who were at the school, and then the number was 15. With the competition steep to get into kindergarten, alumnae are known to have an advantage, especially if they are also loyals. This creates a system where some families keep the school in business. Head of Schools need to please these families especially and admissions watches out for them as they are known to ensure the survival of the school. The pressure of private school parents has grown as the tuition has increased. A 2016 article "Parents Who Bully" by the National Association of Independent School's Independent Magazine describes how frustrated or entitled parents can create issues in a school environment. This describes the parents as three types that can cause victimization in teachers. The types are called: The Righteous Crusader, the Entitled Intimidator, and the Vicious Gossip. A Harvard professor of education termed the phrase "Volvo Caucus" for the area that the gossiping will occur and the malice of the rumors will become bullying by adults. Parents lobbying like this for changes in independent schools is now against the National Association Independent School best practices, an organization that oversees Burke's accreditation and aims to be the voice of independent schools nationwide. Another similarity of many small independent schools is they share the same attorney at Folger Levin firm in San Francisco.[3] The school list includes Burke's, Hamlin's, University High School, Branson High School, and also recently an attorney of theirs was quoted for Sonoma Academy.[4] The San Francisco independent schools will have events together often Burke's-Town School for Boys (sister-brother schools) or Burke's-Town-Hamlin's-Stuart Hall. In the 1980s, these schools had four school play days at the Burke's campus with its sports equipment. Now they alumnae clubs will hold events that keep a small circle of people in contact over the decades. Another one of the competitor schools is Sacred Heart Convent school for girls whose student high school newspaper recently had a piece on toxic friendships in the small, elite girls' school environment, "Toxic Friendships diminish self esteem."[5] These issues are similar to Burke's that hosts many speakers in to discuss friendships of the issues around privilege (such as Madeline Levine). 2601:645:8300:C6D0:A131:C108:9102:687B (talk) 21:04, 10 February 2022 (UTC) References
The edit mentioned was caught by a wiki editor as not constructiveThis was the second warning on the blank deletions that the user got, you can see it on their page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:50.201.237.202 This is where destructive came from. Another way of saying not constructive. Since the edits also inserted errors (as I've shown above), my comments on destructive edits have some source material as well. Please keep criticism on the right things; nit picking is what I think made this shut down, and that wasn't me who did it. 2601:645:8300:C6D0:A131:C108:9102:687B (talk) 21:23, 10 February 2022 (UTC) More new text to insertPotentially new content Girls schools The 2004 Mean Girls film popularized a notion that most alumnae of all-girls schools know too well: girl-based bullying. Since then the phrase has been part of the discussion around Burke's as shown in the alumnae reviews posted online as well as in novels. This bullying as described in the parent training can also become part of the parent culture, and in some cases the alumnae parents. As the damage of bullying in childhood gets understood more (long-term chronic damage), there's also attention on how mothers can do the same things within independent schools and that's what can keep bullying so cyclical in a school environment -- it's being reinforced by parents. Miss Porter's school was infamous when there was a "mean girls lawsuit" covered in Vanity Fair and the key aspect is that alumnae moms would encourage the bullying on campus by a sanctioned group. The Mean Girls film was also planned to be made into a sequel around 2015 called Mean Moms that would have starred Jennifer Aniston. Managing parents is left with the head of school along with other administrators who are at least aware of if they are "loyals" who have donated for the past nine years. Since the head is also tasked with crisis and managing parents, the skills to push back can become essential in this environment. Otherwise the balance of power is off for the head of school as has been shown during the COVID19 pandemic when private schools re-opened in many cases earlier than public schools. This drew more national attention to the private-public school divide; and Burke's has represented private school in San Francisco for more than a century so it's been in contrast with the nearby public schools like Alamo Elementary and Presidio Middle School. 2601:645:8300:C6D0:9097:AB7E:6821:8D97 (talk) 22:27, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 2601:645:8300:C6D0:A131:C108:9102:687B (talk) 21:50, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 2601:645:8300:C6D0:9097:AB7E:6821:8D97 (talk) 00:21, 11 February 2022 (UTC) Source material on coaches/lack of oversightHere's the news in the last year from the Chron (plus Marin IJ that isn't subscription based) -- the comments are important as well. Burke's girls go to these schools. They know these guys. Chronicle on Branson and Daphne Green, notice how the reporter refers to the group of schools: [1]
"The Chronicle does not generally identify victims of sexual assault, but Greene agreed to be named in this story. She’s the first alleged victim to speak publicly. And when she came forward in 2018 to police and school officials, she set in motion a series of investigations that would unearth decades of alleged sexual abuse at two elite Bay Area high schools." "A former school official told investigators he heard Taylor make “inappropriate,” “usually sexual” jokes to students, as well as commenting on “how cute they were.” But he told one student’s parents the coach was “harmless,” according to the report. The Branson probe found that a school dean received complaints from two families about “sexual harassment issues” with Taylor. “Nobody filed a lawsuit or anything,” the report found, “they simply banned Rusty from coming to their homes.” With the release of the report in April 2019, Branson’s head of school and board of trustees chair wrote a letter to parents. “As an institution, we acknowledge our failing: Branson did not do enough to protect you and keep you safe while you were in the school’s care,” they wrote. “In several instances when Branson faculty or administrators learned of the sexual misconduct or inappropriate behavior, it is clear ... that some matters should have been handled more swiftly, more thoroughly and with greater sensitivity to the students who were harmed.” "In 1979, Taylor accepted an assistant athletic director and coaching job at University High in San Francisco. The private school had recruited him to give its soccer program a boost. They had no idea about the allegations of abuse." The report found that administrators were warned of Taylor’s behavior on multiple occasions, but tried to calm complaining parents down. He eventually received a warning letter that was placed in a “segregated file” kept apart from other teachers’ personnel files in an administrator’s desk drawer. Taylor stayed at the school until 2004. From 1994 to 2015, Taylor coached girls soccer at a variety of other private high schools across the Bay Area, including Carondelet in Concord, Bentley in Lafayette and The Bay School in San Francisco. None of those schools have received any reports of inappropriate behavior by Taylor, school officials told The Chronicle. He accumulated over 1,300 wins at all his prep stops, becoming the country’s leading prep soccer coach. University High brought him back in 2015, the report found, but the new administrators found the segregated file and ordered Taylor to resign after a few months. “Based on the evidence we reviewed, we conclude that when incidents of sexual misconduct were reported to administrators, the administrators sometimes handled those incidents in a manner that did not promote optimal student safety,” the University High report concluded." Comment: "WARREN57 10 April, 2021 Amazed he could last 25 years at University HS, after what has come out. How could this happen, and who allowed it to be swept aside and ignored?" Marin IJ coverage of Daphne Green's lawsuit for negligence against the school for knowing about her relationship with Rusty Taylor and not acting to protect her [2] Another Branson graduate files a lawsuit about a coach at Branson [3] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:645:8300:C6D0:9097:AB7E:6821:8D97 (talk) 02:17, 11 February 2022 (UTC) Lack of oversight at independent school (also this year; also a client of Folger Levin that represents Branson and UHS), recent story sexual harassment not criminal but affected dozens and the administrators turned a blind eye (one came from teaching at Hamlin's). This shows what President of SAIS accrediting Debra Wilson said about teachers/admin moving around and there often being overlapping investigations: [4] Training on how teachers skip around and what a huge issue educator sexual misconduct has been since 2015 (cited before and certainly relevant): [5] Latest research: Carol Shakeshaft [6] Also Ted Talk by her although I can't find it readily available -- this is a trend heating up in private schools, especially in CA 2601:645:8300:C6D0:9097:AB7E:6821:8D97 (talk) 16:05, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
References
Sections to add back inHere is the copy that I believe should be reinstated: Accounting for inflation from the 1980s tuition of around $5,000, Burke's would be about 11,000 today. That's the cost of one competitor Notre Dame des Victoires[1] and other parochial schools that have also had a long history in San Francisco. The other independent schools in the California Association of Independent Schools have increased more and are in the $40,000 to $50,000/annual tuition. Burke's gave out $1.9 million in financial aid in the last tax year. The calculation was removed by the same user who removed most material and did not respond to my invitation to participate in talk yesterday. The calculation is NOT original research by Wikipedia standards. Feedback is welcome2601:645:8300:C6D0:9097:AB7E:6821:8D97 (talk) 17:11, 11 February 2022 (UTC) References Building consensus inviteI did extend another invitation to the editor who made the deletions (including snake dance) at their talk page [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:645:8300:C6D0:9097:AB7E:6821:8D97 (talk) 17:20, 11 February 2022 (UTC) References Clean up & Focus on editsHi, I cleaned it up by collapsing text not necessary for consensus. Now please focus attention on the copy that's ready to go at the end of the talk page. This can be added back in when the protection is over. They are available for edits and discussion now. This is the best use of editors time in my opinion. Please let's be constructive and consensus and keep in mind the protection will be taken off in a short time. I'm acting in great faith to have this done and ready with days to review. I've invited the other IP to come to talk twice. I hope they do. Otherwise if no one comments, this is good to go Monday and I will likely drop it in and walk away only to look back from time to time.2601:645:8300:C6D0:9097:AB7E:6821:8D97 (talk) 18:29, 11 February 2022 (UTC) I will not reach out to BurkesTalk but if anyone else does they did make a reversion for the communications department because the material was submitted anonymously. |
