Talk:Kateryna Skarzhynska

Lubny Forestry College Park

I'm not sure of the connection between the park and the college. The Wikidata item (could be red-linked in the article) is Lubny Forestry College Park. TJMSmith (talk) 12:53, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks TJMSmith. I'm not sure either, but reading the article in Ukrainian, it seems as if it is simply the forest where the school grows trees and displays landscaping art. Very weird that there is an article about the "laboratory", so to speak of the school, but not the school itself. SusunW (talk) 14:40, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Ukrainian Skarzhynski family?

I hope someone can stub article about her husband, Nikolai Georgievich Skarzhynsky. I wonder if there is a connection to pl:Kategoria:Skarżyńscy_herbu_Bończa family.

Piotrus That would be cool. I am hoping someone will do an article on her various family members as well. I don't speak Russian or Ukrainian, but GRuban confirmed there's a whole chapter on them in "А.Д.Бутовского ВОСПОМИНАНИЯ / РУССКАЯ СТАРИНА, С-ПЕТЕРБУРГ, 1915г, Т.164." pp. 96-146 (correlates to PDF pages 105-155) and then a bunch in Астряб, Матвей Григорьевич (1923). "Общественные заслуги Райзеров" (Reiser Public Service). История Полтавы (in Ukrainian). Ukraine: Бориса Тристанова., which as a web article can be machine translated. SusunW (talk) 16:06, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

I did spend some time trying to look for sources in Polish about her or her husband, but got zero. Which at least makes it unlikely anyone is going to war over calling her Polish in the lead. I guess her branch of the family has Ukrainized/Russified pretty well. And she was of German origin anyway. It's just that her husband's name suggest Polish roots. Well, Ukrainian nobility. Ruthenian. Oh well. Thanks for the interesting write up! PS. I as a bit surprised neither uk nor ru wiki have an article about her husband. She really seems to have outshined him. Not bad for a 19th century, not bad at all. Again, thanks for this pearl of an article!--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:59, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Glad you enjoyed it. I loved learning about her. SusunW (talk) 05:31, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Piotrus you were correct. This says "Skarżynski was of noble-Cossack Polish-Ukrainian lineage. The elders in the Poltava and Chernihiv branches of the Skarzhinsky family were Mikhail, an army officer in the Lubny Regiment, and Ivan Mikhailovich, an employee of the "Little Russian Collegium, the Lubensk Regiment of Horun, the Zolotonsky Marshal". SusunW (talk) 19:37, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Ha. The -ski family end is generally a safe bet as for the association with Poland. But of course this is a distant connection; it's hard to say at this point, without further genealogical analysis, for how many generation this branch of the family have been Russified. I think the mention of the Coassack-Polish roots of her husband can be added to the text, but as I said before, there is not enough connection for anything more. It is just something to note, as readers may be curious why she has a Polish-sounding name. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:48, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kateryna Skarzhynska/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Kaiser matias (talk · contribs) 21:12, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

I'll start reviewing in the coming days. Kaiser matias (talk) 21:12, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Comments

• "In 1869, von Reiser became acquainted with Nikolae Georgievich Skarzhynsky, a Ukrainian nobleman and soldier." Unless there's a particular reason here, you likely don't need to include Skarzhynsky's patrynomic (Georgievich) here. I also wonder if his first name is tranliterated properly (conventional spelling would be "Nikolai"), and a quick search in Russian suggests it should be "Nikolai", but if there are other reasons please let me know.

I work on women's articles—almost all of them historical figures. Names are a huge issue with women, so I always try to give the full names of people they were tied to somewhere in the article, unless they have their own article to link to. While it may not be "necessary" to include the full name, it makes it easier for people searching for information on people to have it. Using WP:CommonName, as a guide, for Russian/Ukrainian names, the patrynomic is typically given and a google search bears that out 101 vs. 2,420. But that being said, if you feel it should be removed, I don't have an issue with that. As for spelling, I don't speak or read Russian/Ukrainian, but asked GRuban who does. He said either was fine. But, based on your statement, I've changed it to ai from ae. SusunW (talk) 16:25, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Our article on the name is Nikolai so that is probably better, yes. I'd leave the patronymic in; he was her husband and father of her children, so kind of important, I would think it probably worth the one extra word about him. --GRuban (talk) 16:56, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

• "In 1905, Skarzhynska separated from her husband and moved with her children..." This is the first mention of her children, so I wonder if it wouldn't be worth noting them earlier. I don't want to include too much into the lead, but it seems like it should come earlier than that.

Problem is I don't know where. No idea when or where any of them were born, but chronologically, it is doubtful that they had 3 children before they returned to Ukraine. I split the sentence and inserted "They married in 1874 and later would have three four (see below) children. Five years later, he was transferred from St. Petersburg back to Ukraine." (Though I really despise, short choppy sentences, I couldn't figure out another way to do it.) SusunW (talk) 16:25, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Fair enough. There are of course times we can't get the information we'd like, so have to work with what we have, as is the case here. Kaiser matias (talk) 15:01, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

• "Though her grandmother wanted Katya to become a maid of honour to the royal court..." That should be the imperial court, if it was indeed the court in Petersburg.

Thanks!  Done SusunW (talk) 16:25, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

• "Kulzhinsky had become the tutor for her three children..." Is there any indication for their birthdates? I'm guessing not, but want to make sure it wasn't missed.

Would that I could. I have looked and looked, but your question caused me to look again. By searching for Olga Klimova, I found an article in the Day which says Olga was the oldest, that there was a younger daughter Natalia who became engaged in 1910. That seems to indicate that she was probably born around 1890, and backing into the others with the traditional 2-3 year interval we're probably looking at a range from 1880-1890. But, it also says the 3 children she took with her to Switzerland were Natalia, Igor and Olga Kiryakova, a foster child. This contradicts Sergienko, p 153, who says her daughter Olga went to Switzerland, but if indeed the daughter was born around 1880 (and we know per the Day, she was married and had children by 1910) it seems likely to be another Olga. I am confused by the statement here "коли Наталія отримала листа з вимогою повернутися до Росії" (Google/Yandex: When Natalia received a letter demanding her to return to Russia; Bing: When Natalia received a letter of demand to return to Russia), why would she be required to go to Russia if her mother was still living in Switzerland? GRuban can you check this article in the Day and confirm that I am not misconstruing anything? (By the way, your answer to why 1905, seems to be answered, as it says clearly they left to avoid the "grip of the Russian Revolution". Also, is that photo of her house at Kruglik usable)? SusunW (talk) 16:25, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Wow, that article in the Day, and especially where it leads! We might even want to add a sentence somewhere about Natalia's romance with Arnold Bax, the English composer, about whom we have an article. In that article, Arnold Bax#Early life, she is called "Natalia Skarginska", which should probably be changed to Skarzhinska if not Skarzhynska, the i/y decision is debatable but I'm quite sure that's a soft, not a hard g. But do follow that rabbit hole just a little farther to Alan Sutton's article, which the Day article talks about him writing! http://arnoldbax.com/following-bax-to-ukraine/ It's in English, so no translation is required, and it is maybe half about Kateryna Skarzhynska, so a treasure trove for us, if we can trust it! For example: "In 1891 she engaged Sergiy Kulzhinsky as curator of her museum, and while the first three of her six children, including Olga and Natasha, were fathered by Nicolai, the remaining three were fathered by Kulzhinsky." Wow! SusunW's hypothesis was quite correct! But really, there are probably half a dozen items that we need to get from there and insert here, from memorials, to photos. Great photos! Far better than the low resolution House in the Day article. And they're old, so very likely public domain. I'd use https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:PD-old-assumed or https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:PD-Ukraine which would both apply; or maybe Sutton knows the actual photo sources? Since Sutton explicitly mentions the UK Wikipedia article on Skarzhinska, I would suspect he might be very happy to help here. There isn't contact information on that article, but there is a YouTube link to this Alan Sutton which has an email address here (click checkbox to reveal): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmMLMVEd6QT6x1uP_BMvxpg/about. Want to drop him an email? --GRuban (talk) 16:56, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

GRuban And this is why I love history and collaboration! It's like discovering treasure, but so tied to asking the right question, and the timing. I note that Day article just appeared last month. I also note that Sutton says Skarzhynska was his hostess in 1910. Maybe they had returned home to deal with her husband's death and that was why Natalia was "compelled" to return to Russia/Ukraine? Definitely need to do a bit more delving into this line of query. Lemme see what I can do. SusunW (talk) 17:16, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Okay, so re-read Sutton's piece with more thoroughness. Olga Klimova was his hostess, so still doesn't explain why Natalia was required to come home, except for maybe the death of her dad. I wonder if he is Alan Sutton the publisher? I will write to him to see what his source is for the children's parentage. Surely there is some written source that says she had 6 children and something that gives an inkling of the nature of the relationship with Kulzhinsky. I am unsure if I need to ask him something about the photographs to confirm whether the author or dates are known, but will do so and see what happens. Since the UK went into lockdown last night, perhaps he has time on his hands :) SusunW (talk) 18:12, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Very impressed with your dedication to finding out things here. Keep me posted on how it goes, I'm quite interested to see where it goes.

I have a timeline, but as yet no RS to confirm all of the information. Bax's book confirms death dates on Olga and Natalia (pp=69-70), as he had correspondence with Natalia from 1925 until her death and received notice of her passing in 1934). Ekaterina (1875-?), (She must have been born in Russia, as they did not return to Ukraine until 1879.) Olga (1886-1921), Alexander (1888-1923), Natalia (1890-August 1933), and Igor (1893-1966). Ilchenko gives a son Volodymyr. I suspect he falls in that large gap between Ekaterina and Olga, but don’t know for sure, obviously. Still working on it. SusunW (talk) 00:08, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Still don't have anything to confirm dates, but literally by searching her name followed by "п’ятеро дітей" and "шість дітей" (5, 6 children) I found an article with all the names except Volodymyr, who had already been listed by Sergienko. SusunW (talk) 20:07, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

• "Effectively her marriage ended with her departure and her husband died in 1910." This reads slightly awkward. A suggestion: "Her marriage effectively ended with her departure, and in 1910 her husband died."

 Done SusunW (talk) 16:25, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

This is gone. Working on a source for their having lived separately on the estate before he became "mentally unstable and was confined in a private asylum". (the quoted part comes from Bax, though he said he was "hopelessly insane".) SusunW (talk) 00:08, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

• "With the outbreak of World War I, Skarzhynska was forced to return to Ukraine." Was she forced out by the Swiss authorities? It's a little unclear as to why she returned, and it would be important to clarify if possible, as several Russian emigres did live in Switzerland throughout (Lenin being the most prominent example).

"Начавшаяся европейская война в 1914 году заставила Скаржинскую покинуть Швейцарию и возвратиться на родину, сначала в Киев, потом в Полтаву и, наконец, в Лубны" (all 3 translators Bing/Google/Yandex "The European war that began in 1914 forced Skarzhinskaya to leave Switzerland and return to her homeland, first to Kiev, then to Poltava and finally to Lubny". (It's a lot unclear. A lot of forcing/demanding going on but by whom, I have no idea. We had the same issues as to how she became so impoverished. Someone clearly did something to her...Astryab says she was bankrupted by a penalty imposed upon her by the nobility, except by that time there was no nobility, and that "she lost all of her means for livelihood, they took even her warm blanket", but no idea who or why.) SusunW (talk) 17:00, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Again, if the sources aren't clear on it, then there isn't much you can do. If we have to leave it as is, then that's fine. Certainly can't begrudge you for not putting in the effort to solve it. Kaiser matias (talk) 15:01, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

• "In July 1923 ... sent her a one-time donation of ₽1,000..." Is there any reference to how much that is? I personally don't like to use conversions to modern numbers as that is never accurate, but even noting if it was a small or large sum for 1923 would be sufficient, just to give some context.

I would have put in a figure if it were possible. I actually did look it up, because I was curious, but I have no earthly idea how to insert the information. According to the Moscow Times, $1 was worth more than ₽2,000,000, thus, ₽1,000 wasn't even 1¢. Without having some basis for the cost of living difference between the two countries, it seemed to me that didn't help clarify. By this I mean, how much bread would ₽1,000 have bought her in Ukraine? In the US, bread at that time cost between 9 and 12¢ per pound. I'm happy for suggestions on how to approach this. SusunW (talk) 17:00, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

This says in 1920 bread cost on average ₽25 per kilo, so that would have bought her 40 kg of bread, i.e. about +/-80 loaves of bread. I'll add a note to that effect. SusunW (talk) 20:47, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

 Done SusunW (talk) 21:22, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

• Finally, I notice that you have several Ukrainian-language sources. In particular what caught my attention is that you keep the Ukrainian version of the author's names, rather than transliterating them. I took a quick look through MOS:WORKS for reference on how to properly handle that, and couldn't find anything relevant (it only mentions titles, which you've covered). I only mention it because when I've used non-English sources (specifically non-Latin characters), I tend to transliterate the author's name, just for the sake of consistency (I also have a background in history, and the Chicago Style calls for transliteration). In short, I don't really have anything to add here, just noting it for my own interest, and don't see any issue.

GRuban asked the same question. I am particularly conscious of names, as I said earlier. The only reason I transliterate them in citations is to make alphabetizing them easier. If I cannot find a "standardized English spelling" already, I figure it makes more sense to leave them in the original form, as transliterating them clearly produces many, many variations. If you want it changed, I will do it, not a big issue. SusunW (talk) 17:00, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Not at all, it should be fine as is. Like I said, more a comment of curiosity than anything, and so long as everything matches up I'm good. Kaiser matias (talk) 15:01, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Overall not a lot to change, and once done I'll be happy to promote. A really interesting article about a really interesting individual, one who seemed to have done quite a bit in her life. Kaiser matias (talk) 01:39, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Kaiser matias, thank you for the review. Still working on a few points and with this virus, not sure if GRuban is around for help. I'd like a bit of time to see if he can respond. SusunW (talk) 17:00, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the update. I'm also really impressed with you replies here, it is certainly more than I expected, in a good way. I'll be happy to wait until you get everything finished, and will give it a final look then. Feel free to ping me once that's done, and I also have this page watched for that. Kaiser matias (talk) 18:06, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

@GRuban and Kaiser matias: Just a wee update. Sutton already answered. He isn't the publisher (he's a musician and the player on the YouTube videos), but he is willing to help and is willing to put me in touch with the writer of the piece from the Day, who works at the Lubny Museum. I don't know if she speaks English, but I told him wouldn't matter, as GRuban can help. So, I asked him if he had sources for the names and dates for all 6 of her children, confirming her relationship with Kulzhinsky, why they were forced to leave Switzerland, why Natalia was required to return to Russia, who/what/why happened for her to lose her fortune, and any information on the provenance of the photos from his article. Will keep you advised of any reply. SusunW (talk) 20:32, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Nice! Just to note, though, I can help up to a point. I'm fluent in Russian, which means that I can read Ukrainian better than I could if I weren't, but that doesn't make me nearly fluent in it, and I'm not going to be able to write her in Ukrainian. They're related, but noticeably different. There is, of course, a non-negligible chance that she is perfectly fluent in Russian, as many Ukrainians are, especially those over a certain age. But let's see, I'm certainly willing to try. --GRuban (talk) 21:11, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Or the chance that she speaks perfect English :) SusunW (talk) 21:22, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

(outdent) Again, very impressed at your efforts here, and looking forward to seeing what is found. I'll be sure to keep watch on this, and will offer whatever help I can as well. Kaiser matias (talk) 15:01, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

So, I have names and dates, but need a RS to confirm the children and birth order; he's working on the source confirming her relationship with Kulzhinsky; doesn't know why they were forced to leave Switzerland; Natalia, per Bax, "quite suddenly and inconsequently took the notion that her family required her instant return to Russia" (p. 57); thinks she simply spent all the money on charity; and says the photos are mainly from postcards and things he took. (Working on confirming dates on the older ones and permission to use his photos). The writer/museum lady doesn't speak English, but she does speak Russian, so we're on it. SusunW (talk) 00:08, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

@GRuban and Kaiser matias: Update: Alan Sutton sent a book published by the Center for Monuments of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine. It's a collection of articles by various authors on Kulzhynskii. (I changed the spelling, as each article gives an English abstract and this is the transliteration they use). The chief editor, Suprunenko, is a senior researcher of history and director of the Poltava Museum, so it seems quite obviously it is a RS. Weighing whether the impact of the information which is given about Igor's parentage in the book would cause harm to living people, I have concluded that Igor's descendants would want the knowledge known. Family members spoke to many of the authors of the papers in the book. They see Kuhlzhynskii as the man who made their lives possible, having adopted (not quite sure if that was official or not) Igor's children, raised and educated them. The stories they have told of the couple's affection for each other is quite touching. I have opted to include it with footnotes to the original Ukrainian quote that states, rather than implies the nature of their relationship. Slow going, I am only up to page 66 of the book, but I'm getting there.

It's maddening that I cannot find a source which gives all of her children, still looking. (For example, Suprunenko's book gives the name and death information the oldest daughter Kateryna, but I have nothing about her birth, except an unsourced genealogical site and a speculation that she was probably born in Russia). Relationship with Kuhlzynskii is confirmed; why they left Switzerland I still don't know; they lost everything when they were robbed by revolutionaries, who even stole their identity papers. Haven't begun to work out the photographs yet, as nailing down the information seemed more critical, but we'll get there. Thank you for your patience. A single question has sparked so much more information and I am happy GRuban found someone who is able to help us find answers. SusunW (talk) 14:33, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Names of the children without dates is in the article as I finally found a source. Guess it is time to start working out the photos. SusunW (talk) 20:07, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

I uploaded the photo of Kuhlzynskii and the children. I am positive it was not previously published, but I am unsure if I need to tag it with a Russian Empire tag as well. The problem is that I see no tag that deals with anonymity. GRuban can you help? I've asked Sutton if he will release the photos he has (hopefully he will upload them because if not, I have no idea how to have him release them). Also on the two houses at Kruglik were you able to get any information from Tetyana? SusunW (talk) 15:26, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm going to go with https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:PD-old-assumed, which seems to fit here ("The copyright situation of this work is theoretically uncertain, because in the country of origin copyright lasts 70 years after the death of the author, and the date of the author's death is unknown. However, the date of creation of the work was over 120 years ago, and it is thus a reasonable assumption that the copyright has expired"). https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:PD-US-unpublished is also good, let's put them both on. --GRuban (talk) 14:54, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

(outdent) @SusunW: Again I want to say I am in awe of your dedication to finding information here, and truly appreciate it. This really inspires me to do better, and does so much to help make articles that much better. I also wanted to check and see if you have finished finding everything, and if you'd like me to go through it once more before passing? Kaiser matias (talk) 15:29, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Kaiser matias, thank you. I truly do love the research part. I have tried writing stubs, I am no good at it. As is evident, I am obsessed with trying to get as complete a story of a life as is possible, as so many women's stories have been lost. Give me a couple of days to finish the photographs and we'll be done. I need to add the bit Piotrus mentioned as being relevant to her husband's Polish roots and was just about to do that. SusunW (talk) 15:38, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Great. I'm the same way, really enjoy researching topics and getting as complete a picture as possible about whatever it is I'm working on. And just send me a message once you're ready, but of course no rush. Kaiser matias (talk) 16:25, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

@Kaiser matias:, we're just about done. GRuban was able to secure copies of 2 book excerpts from Safronova, the museum lady, and I have input that information into the article. Just needs his review to make sure there are no glaring errors in the citations of those sources and anything else he wants to add or thinks is pertinent per our extended exchanges of sourcing with Sutton and Safronova. I thank you both so much for your help in improving the article. SusunW (talk) 17:48, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

@Kaiser matias and GRuban: Sutton uploaded the photos as I asked. I put the two plaques here. I have no idea how to create a gallery on the Kruglik estate article, but this, this and the two houses could be used there if someone knew how to create a gallery in Ukrainian. I also have no idea how to add a category, but have put the category Kateryna Skarzhynska on all the photos I loaded and those Alan did. If someone could create that category on commons, they could be centralized. Other than that, I think it is ready for the final read-through. SusunW (talk) 21:18, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

I can make the Commons category, by tomorrow. I think you need to put at least a sentence, if not more, about Kulzhinsky in the lead; after all, he was the father of her last child, and cared for her during her final years, each of those is rather a big deal. --GRuban (talk) 21:54, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you GRuban. I added a line about him in the lede. "One of the curators, Sergiy Kulzhynskiy [uk], would become her partner, father of her youngest child, and her companion and caretaker in her old age". Please feel free to change whatever you think is necessary. Appreciate you making the category. SusunW (talk) 22:19, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

I think it is safe to say this can pass now. And again I want to commend you on your efforts here SusanW. This is definitely going above and beyond what most people would do, and I've really enjoyed playing a small role in helping improve the article. I'll also credit GRuban for your translation help, which has proven to be a great benefit. Kaiser matias (talk) 16:13, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

De nada, as the Brazilians would say in their native French. --GRuban (talk) 17:36, 8 April 2020 (UTC)