Talk:Kalinin

Requested move 15 April 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. There have been concerns of such a big group nominations during the discussion. Its better to open seperate discussions for each of them as suggested during the discussion. Yashovardhan (talk) 04:27, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

– In the same manner that Lenin redirects to Vladimir Lenin, Stalin to Joseph Stalin, Malenkov to Georgy Malenkov, Khrushchev to Nikita Khrushchev, Brezhnev to Leonid Brezhnev, Andropov to Yuri Andropov, Gorbachev to Mikhail Gorbachev, Yeltsin to Boris Yeltsin, Putin to Vladimir Putin, Bukharin to Nikolai Bukharin, Kamenev to Lev Kamenev, Beria to Lavrentiy Beria, Voroshilov to Kliment Voroshilov, Bulganin to Nikolai Bulganin, Shepilov to Dmitri Shepilov or Vyshinsky to Andrey Vyshinsky, so should these names redirect to their most prominent holders — Mikhail Kalinin, Yakov Sverdlov, Sergey Kirov, Vyacheslav Molotov, Andrei Zhdanov and Konstantin Chernenko, respectively. In most cases, virtually everything listed at the disambiguation page stems from the individual in question, such as Kalinin or Kirov, and yet he is not even listed there and must be further searched at Kalinin (surname) or Kirov (surname), where the name is buried amidst other names of comparatively minor notability. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 01:57, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support Sverdlov and Chernenko. Oppose the rest (but could be persuaded on Molotov). Tver (formerly Kalinin), Kirov, Kirov Oblast, various Molotovs, and Zhdanov, Ukraine (now Mariupol) are challengers to primary status of the unadorned surname. I urge other readers to consider each case on its own merits as well. I agree with the nominator that the personages in question should receive top billing on the main DAB page (maybe like this?). — AjaxSmack 16:38, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Although all the localities, ships, planes, etc are named after the individuals in question (Kalinin even has an asteroid, 2699 Kalinin, named after him), the matter of place names is certainly a key aspect of this discussion. Those considerations were also raised recently in similar discussions regarding such names as Disraeli, Gladstone or Churchill redirecting to the historically most prominent holders of those surnames.
The extensive discussion regarding Gladstone (Talk:Gladstone (disambiguation)#Requested move 30 November 2016) raised the issue of place names — all named after William Ewart Gladstone — and leaned in favor of the move. It may be pointed out that Washington and Lincoln do not redirect to George Washington and Abraham Lincoln, but those names — referenced in their full form — do appear as the main overall entry at the top of those respective disambiguation pages. Outside the Slavic regions however and, particularly, in the English-speaking world, the Soviet/Russian leaders are known almost exclusively by their historical surnames, with all other namesakes stemming from the surnames of those individuals.
It should also be noted that all other separate forms and disambiguation forms, such as Imeni Kalinina, Kaliningrad, Kalininsk, Kalininsky, Imeni Sverdlova, Sverdlovsk, Kirovsk, Kirovski, Kirovka, Imeni Kirova, Molotovsk, Zhdanovsk, Zhdanivka, etc, all refer to the individuals in question. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 20:28, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose all these mononyms are not in the Lenin class. And Kirov on its own usually means the ballet company (I have reverted the change to the dab page lead). In ictu oculi (talk) 09:46, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose a group nomination like this as they can get messy quickly. That being said, I'd be fine with moving the two that AjaxSmack singled out. From my research, I agree that they're the primary topic. -- Tavix ^(talk) 13:24, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Announcement of this discussion appears at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Soviet Union and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Russia. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 04:21, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 1 January 2020

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus for the proposed move at this time, after extended time for discussion. BD2412 T 14:48, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kalinin → Kalinin (disambiguation) – Per above discussion from over two-and-a-half years ago. The names proposed in that discussion [except for Kirov and Molotov] have been moved since then. The argument is basically the same — as with all the other names listed above — every single entry at the Kalinin disambiguation page [except for Kalinin (surname)] refers to Mikhail Kalinin, but his name [same as with Kirov and Molotov at the time of the original nomination] does not even appear at the dab page and is listed in the middle of the pack at Kalinin (surname), thus making the key fact (that every entry at the dab page is named solely after him) unknown and entirely marginalized to English Wikipedia users not versed in Soviet history. — Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 18:09, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 18:24, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose nothing changed, Kalinin is not a well known mononym. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:22, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Obviously well known to the extent that, as Soviet head of state, every single entry at the Kalinin (disambiguation) page was named after his surname used as a mononym. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 23:14, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well known in Russia no doubt. But not in the general readership. I read Tolstoy and had never heard of him. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:59, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Such an outlook amounts to WP:INEVERHEARDOFIT. As already indicated, Kalinin was Soviet head of state and Russian / Soviet figures have been traditionally referenced mononymously. Presumably, those in the general readership who have never heard of Kalinin, may or may not have heard of Lenin and/or Stalin or some of the more recent mononyms such as Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Gorbachev and/or Yeltsin and probably only recognize the mononym of the current one, Putin.

However, it bears repeating that Kalinin has no competition — other than Kalinin (surname), it is all Mikhail Kalinin. Furthermore, as indicated in the previous discussion at Talk:Kalinin#Requested move 15 April 2017, all the entries at related disambiguation pages — Kaliningrad (disambiguation), Kaliningradsky, Kaliningradskaya, Kaliningradskoye, Kalininsk, Kalininsky, Kalininskaya or Kalininskoye are named entirely after him. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:53, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Tver, while also hidden away on the Kalinin, Russia "set index article", gets about two-thirds as many hits as Mikhail. So I think this is a case of there being no primary topic for "Kalinin" per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, WP:NOPRIMARYTOPIC. I do agree with the nominator that Mikhail should be prominent on the DAB page, and that isOld revision of now the case. I'd also prefer that Kalinin, Russia were merged into the DAB per WP:INCDAB: it only has three linked list entries, which is as many as for Armenian places at the DAB. 94.21.10.204 (talk) 16:56, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Tver was formerly named Kalinin after Mikhail Kalinin. That seems to support the point made by Roman Spinner. And the fact that it currently gets a lot of views under a different name tells us little or nothing about whether there is or is not a primary topic for Kalinin. older ≠ wiser 17:11, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support. If you haven't heard of this Kalinin, you've never heard of any Kalinin. Srnec (talk) 05:44, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose for now (pending a WP:DABTEST) noting that Tver (formerly Kalinin) gets nearly as many views and has a population of 420,065. While it might be true that most uses derive from Mikhail its unlikely that readers would be searching with only last name or he has substantially greater notability over things called just "Kalinin" (and formerly called that). Note that Columbus does not redirect to Christopher for example. Listing Mikhail on the DAB its self per WP:NAMELIST seems enough for those that do search using only the last name. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:39, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Clear primary topic by long-term significance, and per nom. — Amakuru (talk) 23:49, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, Tver. The nomination also mentioned that "the names proposed in that discussion [except for Kirov and Molotov] have been moved since then" in support of the idea that this is uncontroversial, but this could be rephrased to note that half of them haven't been moved. Dekimasuよ! 08:58, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.