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Pastry dough?

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@M.Bitton: The usual meaning of the expression pastry dough is the dough used to make the pastry. The usual meaning of confection is a sweet food (finished product). The only source (Ayto) uses "confection", yet out article says, "pastry dough". There are probably ways to make ends meet here (I am not an expert in the culinary field), but this requires some changes in the text of this article IMHO: either (1) the terminology can be changed to reflect the source, or the use the term "dough" here can be somehow explained to match the source. Викидим (talk) 10:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging @Dan Palraz:, re-pinging @M.Bitton:. Викидим (talk) 10:20, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Викидим: I have been meaning to expand this article, but just didn't have the time to look for the proper sources (those that know the difference between this and the Turkish pastry), such as this one.[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by M.Bitton (talk • contribs)
An {{under construction}} might help to slow people like me down :-) --Викидим (talk) 10:32, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here's another source that will probably come up.[2] I don't particularly rate Gil Marks as his claims tend to be hit and miss. M.Bitton (talk) 13:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC) M.Bitton (talk) 13:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is also this source.[3] M.Bitton (talk) 13:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It seems like researchers use many word combinations for the Turkish dessert: "Dolma kadayif, burma kadayif, künefe and tray kadayif are among the traditional dessert varieties produced using tel kadayif"[4] Викидим (talk) 18:45, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but all of them, including what the source that you cited calls "Turkish", have the same origin (Qataif). Unfortunately, there aren't many good sources about the subject (I counted three so far, four if we include Gil Marks). I'll keep looking and if nothing else is found, I'll rename this article "Qataif" (assuming you and others agree) and use the sources that we have to expand this article. If you have a better idea, please do not hesitate to share. M.Bitton (talk) 19:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Alan Davidson (2014). The Oxford Companion to Food. Oxford University Press. p. 661. ISBN 978-0-19-967733-7.
  2. ^ Gil Marks (2010). Encyclopedia of Jewish Food. Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. p. 905. ISBN 978-0-544-18631-6.
  3. ^ Lilia Zaouali (2009). Medieval Cuisine of the Islamic World A Concise History with 174 Recipes. University of California Press. p. 198. ISBN 978-0-520-26174-7.
  4. ^ Başar, Burak; Boz, Hüseyin (2023-05-04). "Effect of different oils and sugar syrups on the properties of tray kadayif (traditional Turkish dessert)". Journal of Ethnic Foods. 10 (1). doi:10.1186/s42779-023-00178-3. ISSN 2352-6181.

Disambiguation

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We have Kadayif, Kadayif (pastry), Qatayef, Kataifi/Kadaif (redirecting to Knafeh, where neither word is even mentioned). These five, and the re-redirection activity here all call for a WP:Disambiguation page. Викидим (talk) 10:24, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ideally, this article should be renamed "Qataif" (the original Arabic word). M.Bitton (talk) 10:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
IMHO we need a page that bring all Kadayifs together so that the man on the Clapham omnibus like me can figure out which one they are looking for. Викидим (talk) 10:34, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That could be done once we expanded this article to explain how they are all related. M.Bitton (talk) 11:00, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging @Adamtt9, Lazesusdasiru, Arminden, IamNotU, Rosguill, Largoplazo, and Scope creep: Викидим (talk) 10:50, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like a merge of Kadayif (pastry) into Qatayef would consolidate the most relevant content--I imagine M.Bitton is correct about which romanized title to move the article to. signed, Rosguill talk 19:15, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would never recognise Romanian "cataif" if hidden under many of the guises listed above. From a Central or West European perspective, all "Oriental/Eastern" sweets are similar: dough, nuts, sweet syrup. But once you enter the fray and take into consideration what is absolutely typical and obligatory for each type of dessert in one specific country or sub-region (and there alone), the differences become very clear. Romanian cataif MUST have thin, crispy noodles on top. Many of the other desserts listed above (kadayif, kadayif pastry, qatayef, kataifi/kadaif, knafeh) simply don't, and have very little in common beyond being "Oriental" and sweet.
Common etymological roots of the name mean little when talking about dishes, which have evolved in very different ways across the huge geographical area where the approximate name and concept has spread over the centuries.
Cross-ref as much as possible, especially under "etymology" or "origin", but the same they are most certainly not. Arminden (talk) 21:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We should obviously follow sources as closely as possible. From what I recall, however, the sources at Kadayif (pastry) directly identify it with Arabic qataif, do not specify any details that would differentiate kadayif from qataif, and further provide additional links to subtypes which are differentiated such as Tel kadayıf, Ekmek kadayif (and also, perhaps erroneously, Kunefe) signed, Rosguill talk 23:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorting

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This is my attempt to sort out the meanings of kadayif along with the sources used for that. Please note that I do not cook myself, do not eat Middle-Eastern sweets unless I am in ME (not frequently), do not know the ME culture otherwise. My sources are pretty random, as I am going for clarity, not precision here. So, do not shoot the piano player, but feel free to correct the list and replace sources. --Викидим (talk) 21:56, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Kadayif may refer to either unfinished product (like dough) or confection.[1] Note that tray kadaif might belong to both groups. In Turkish cuisine Kadayif is a generic name for a group of pastry desserts found in the cookbook Melceü't-Tabbâhîn (1844).[2]

  • Unfinished products
    • Kadayif flour, special flour made from bisquit class wheat[3]
    • Wire kadayif, also tel kadayif[4] and string kadayif,[5] semi-processed product of mixing wheat flour and water, cooked and optionally fried,[3][6] vermicelli-like,[5] Arabic products made of similar dough are cold knafeh[5]
    • Tray kadaif, per Turkish standard TS 10344 it is a semi-processed (baked) water and flour mix product[7][verification needed]
  • Confections
    • Tray kadayif, a dessert produced using tel kadayif and walnut. Variety of oils, hazelnut, sugar syrups can be added[6][8]
    • Yassi kadayif, a pancake resembling Arabic qatayef dumpling (while katayif comes from qatayef linguistically, there is little overlap in actual desserts)[5] Also flat kadayif, Arab kadayif[9]
    • Turkish künefe is filled with cheese[10]
    • Ekmek kadayifi or bread kadayif is made by pouring syrup on the bread. If leftover dry bread is used, it is fodula kadayif[2]
    • dolma kadayif, stuffed kadayif - walnuts wrapped in tel kadaif and deep-fried[10]
    • burma kadayif is made from tel kadayif in Diyarbakır[10]
  • Yet unsorted
    • white kadayıf, creamy kadayıf, palace wire kadayıf[11]

Bezirgan[4] declares "stone kadayif" to be the same as "flat" and "bread". This does not jive with other sources, so I am discounting Bezirgan.

Başar & Boz[6] talk about lean kadayif and yufka kadayif. Well "yufka" is "thin" and filo dough, but no corroboration found for "yufka kadayif".

References

  1. ^ Walczak-Mikołajczakowa 2023, p. 97.
  2. ^ a b Başar 2017, p. 9.
  3. ^ a b Savlak & Köse 2013, p. 128.
  4. ^ a b Bezirgan 2024, p. 15.
  5. ^ a b c d Krondl 2011, p. 105.
  6. ^ a b c Başar & Boz 2023. sfn error: multiple targets (2×): CITEREFBaşarBoz2023 (help)
  7. ^ Seyyedcheraghi, Kotancilar & Karaoglu 2019, p. 4007.
  8. ^ Başar 2017, p. 13.
  9. ^ Başar 2017, p. 10.
  10. ^ a b c Başar 2017, p. 12.
  11. ^ Fidan & Kübra 2024.

Sources

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Observations

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Based on the sorting experiment above, here are some of my observations:

  1. Kadayif is a very generic name, so Kadayif probably should be made into WP:disambiguation or WP:set index
  2. maybe this new Kadayif is worth merging with Kadayif (pastry)
  3. Kadayif term is not confined to pastry products that are made from vermicelli-like strands of dough, so Kadayif (pastry) shall reflect this reality
  4. Sources clearly spell the difference between Kadayif and Qatayef, so these articles most likely are worth keeping separate
  5. Tel kadayıf is a semi-processed ingredient, and thus worth keeping as a separate article
  6. Tray kadayif is the tricky one as it can be a finished product, like kunefe, or if Seyyedcheraghi et al. are to be trusted, a semi-processed ingredient (can some one find the relevant Turkish standard?)
  7. the rest of the tel kadaif-based products can be lumped together into kunefe, IMHO

--Викидим (talk) 19:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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