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Requested move 7 September 2017

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved DrStrauss talk 15:17, 29 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Kévin Mayer → Kevin Mayer – There doesn't appear to be an accent in this French athlete's name; the accent appears only in Wikipedia pages. No other search results have yielded "Kévin" with regard to this specific person, including official profiles and articles in French-language media where accents are integral to orthography – and therefore where it wouldn't be considered proper to leave a diacritic out of a name, like English tends to do with foreign names. References available in the article itself. Luisftd (talk) 18:37, 7 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose there is an accent, visible in all French sources Il était minuit samedi quand Kévin Mayer, la médaille d'or autour du cou, s'est présenté devant les journalistes. Le nouveau champion du monde du décathlon s'est prêté au jeu des questions-réponses.. Per WP:FRMOS we don't follow English sources for French spelling, because UK and US sports websites tabloids fail WP:RS for spelling. In this case the British tabloids have taken to spelling Kévin (French "Kay-vin") as "Kevin" (British "Kevvvin") but note BBC are actually pronouncing his name correctly. If his fame lasts people may learn to spell and pronounce his name correctly. Either way, WP:FRMOS is required here. We can't de-Kay one French Kévin just because he made it to the British sports press and had his name misspelled. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:20, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    @In ictu oculi:Regarding the accent, it's not visible in all French sources - all the examples quoted inside the article lack the accent, including official documents and news from the French Athletics federation [1], [2]. Regarding the pronunciation, there are several youtube videos where his name is pronounced [kevin] or [kɛvin] in interviews (I've added some links to the article proper), which only corroborates the lack of an article and the general change in stress; Kevin is an alternative from of Kévin, and it comes with an alternative pronunciation of the "in", at least in where he's concerned. Here's Mayer presenting himself [3]; you can hardly hear the v, but he clearly enunciates [in], no nasal ẽ. If his fame lasts (and he's already pretty famous in athletics circles, mind you), people might learn to pronounce his name the way he does. --Luisftd (talk) 18:15, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    @In ictu oculi: P.S. If you don't believe Kevin, surely you'll believe the way his mom pronounces his name [4]... --Luisftd (talk) 19:04, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Agreeing with In ictu oculi in principle, I strongly disagree that the accent is visible in all French sources – on the contrary, it is only visible in some French sources. Examining just the titles in fr:Kévin Mayer#Notes et références, usage is split, but the "Kevin" form dominates in 2017 sources, including Le Monde, L'Equipe an LCI Europe 1, Le Parisien. Examining https://www.google.com/search?q="Kévin+Mayer"+site:*.fr the accentless form dominates the search, so I think it's safe to assume that it's an old error that gradually got corrected as he achieved more fame. Presumably his own twitter, facebook and instagram accounts all spell it without the accent, so... No such user (talk) 10:27, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    @No such user: Thanks for the support - I've added around 40 references to the article in the last few days (several from French sources, including official documents from the Fédération française d'athletisme), and they all uphold this general idea; at first I found it odd too (including the pronunciation), but eventually it just seemed like too many sources making the same mistake didn't quite register as plausible. Thanks for doing your own research and coming up with a reasoning for some of the earliest cases of the accent; it makes perfect sense, and it would work well in a note at the article proper. Thanks for at least giving me the benefit of the doubt regarding my research and doing your own research to corroborate it for yourself; I really appreciate it. --Luisftd (talk) 18:26, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: the accent is compulsory in the French form of his name (= Kévin) but it is not in the English form. Kévin Borlée is not always written like that. The usage by athlete himself could not be a font (most French do not write Éric, Rémy or Barthélemy correctly !). The official documents (FFA) and most (good quality typing) medias and newspapers write Kévin. As most of the wikis. For me, no doubt...--Enzino (talk) 13:27, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    @Enzino:Can you give more examples of "good quality typing" medias and newspapers writing Kévin? Couldn't it be that some people unfamiliar with the way the name is spelled would fall into the trap of using the normal French pronunciation? People are making the same mistakes regarding the way the name is pronounced...
    @Enzino:P.S. Can you provide any links to the FFA sources you say list "Kévin", or at least a sizable number vis-a-vis "Kevin". This website search [5] seems to corroborate the general idea that Kévin is used only . If you could provide any proof that there's French statal obligation in writing the name a certain way, maybe we could understand why another wiki page (Kevin Rolland) has it as well. This is not a native French name, there was a major fad in the eighties/early nineties because of Kevin Costner, Home Alone and other notable Kevins, it would be normal for people to write it as such barring state intervention in the naming process. As established earlier, Kevin and his family don't even pronounce the name in the most common French pronunciation. --Luisftd (talk) 02:04, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    So please address my results above: Le Monde, L'Equipe, La Chaîne Info and Europe 1, in their French editions, are hardly examples of careless typesetting. And I did not cherry-pick them: See https://www.google.com/search?q=Kévin+Mayer+site:*.fr&client=firefox-b&tbm=nws Google news search in French for yourself. There are sources that spell it with é, such as Lyon Capitale or La Voix du Nord, but they are in minority. No such user (talk) 15:10, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - his official social media uses the non-diacritic form, thus we should follow suit. Academicoffee71 (talk) 22:36, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
New account, see ongoing Sock investigation In ictu oculi (talk) 20:10, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:FRENCHNAMES Agathoclea (talk) 12:47, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Agathoclea: can you elaborate? I wholeheartedly agree that French proper names and expressions should respect the use of accents and ligatures in French, but since first name Kevin in French usually does not have an accent, and particularly not in the name of Kevin Mayer, your oppose does not make sense. No such user (talk) 20:48, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    @Agathoclea:It's becoming increasingly hard to WP:GF in this discussion when someone fails to substantiate their remarks, falling back on Wikipedia's many rules without thinking about them judiciously or at least engaging with the concerns that led to the discussion in the first place. Is that all you do around here? Just using WP:Whatever to justify doing something or other en lieu of an actual rational discussion with a healthy back-and-forth? Are you too busy to write an actual honest to God structured opinion that you just allow yourself to follow the rules blindly, feeling that hint of power and menace that comes from quashing someone else's POV? This so-called collaborative project is a sham if mob rule is all you've got supporting it - I thought I was doing some good, but I can see now that whatever I do is meaningless: someone who doesn't give a damn about reasoned, thought-about truths will always use their one-line opposes and lies to wreak havoc on thoughtful discussion. Thanks a lot for validating my doubts about ever contributing to this project - you can keep it to yourselves from now on. --Luisftd (talk) 06:29, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. We have a situation where French sources don't consistently include the accent, and English sources consistently avoid it. Also relevant per MOS:ID, Mayer's personal pages don't use the accent in "Kevin"; his Twitter avoids it despite including one in Décathlon.[6]--Cúchullain t/c 20:11, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Cuchullain.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:32, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The French accent any name without they need to put the accent: See Michel Platini. --Kasper2006 (talk) 08:03, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. French sources use the accent (et c'est ca, bien sur) and English sources do not. This is English Wikipedia. We use English, we do not try to correct it. Andrewa (talk) 00:46, 24 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that this is the English language Wikipedia is neither here nor there, as a determinant factor. One finds accents in many person's names, e.g. André. Motley Crüe. Invalid argument. --Vicedomino (talk) 04:22, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support In virtue of the fact that official French sources do NOT use the accent, and that his personal pages do not use the accent, follow Kevin. One may note the accented spelling in a footnote. --Vicedomino (talk) 04:22, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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