Talk:Jungle music/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Jungle music. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

disamb

this should be a disambiguation page, rather than a simple redirect

Jungle Music was also the name of the music Duke Ellington was playing at the Cotton Club in the 1920s

J Edward Malone (talk) 18:51, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Some parts unnecessary

It does come across that this article was written by a Jamaican. The parts that address the origin of the term 'Jungle' have nothing, or very little, to do with the music, which is unapologetically English. Jamaica has no part in it.

The other thing, is that few comparisons, musically at least, can be drawn with Hip Hop, as the article currently claims. Acid House, Breakbeat, yes. Probably worth an edit: 'Like Hip Hop, Jungle is mainly 'black music'. ...I've always been suspicious of the phrase "black music". Why bring color into it?! Jungle is Not 'black music'. Some of the most important producers, such as Grooverider and Goldie, are certainly dark-skinned. They just happen to be so, and this is entirely incidental. Certainly, the lower classes are the home of the genre, but a reference to skin color is unnecessary. By that standard, you could call Jazz 'black music' and Rock 'white music'. But that would be entirely pointless and irrelevant.

Untitled

I think this page really should redirect to jungle_(music) but the text would have to be merged.

Article is now titled jungle (music). Redirects fixed --Lexor|Talk 08:02, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Jungle vs DnB

PhYzZ1971 19 September 2013

..... As per below "Of course this is just my opinion as an oldschool raver & 80's B-Boy, so Your Milage May Vary!" I also am the same - couldnt break any more than the caterpillar but could pop, definitely!

My first rave was at Dance 90 (except for a Spiral Tribe do or two in the same year) and, as acid, techno and house as all the sets played out were then, what we came to know as a Jungle break began its influence on the floor in mid to late '91. At roughly this time 'everyone' party side was using one term "Hardcore" which even then was a "question" ~ emphasized by MixMag always referring to Hardcore(?) (i.e with a ?) in their print in 1991 as I recall....which later the scene 'blamed' on 'that "hoover" sound' ... :D For me, whilst not a producer, or a Jock, I was a dancer ~ Mainly London and Southcoast with a few Midlands and Wales excursions - and the development went, it seemed, from Hardcore (as an expansion and progression of House Acid Techno etc) into an inclusion more and more of breakbeat. This happened steadily through the course of '91 for example. What cannot be ignored with reference to "Jungle" sound perhaps is the influence from artists such as Ragga Twins (Spliffhead - 1990) which shaped the future harder dance styles offered up. To me the music just stayed 'ardcore ~ Even with the tempo becoming noticeably quicker, the nice noise less acid and more "newer" noises and samples / loops in line with the tech / synth advances of the day and, even with the of a return in Hip Hop influences too. In early '92, 'Ragga' was certainly used in the main ravescene and, at about the same time, the term 'Jungle' also began to be used (London scene anyways) By June '92 Jungle/Techno was a term widely known and a 'Jungle' 3-beat was definitely identifiable. The Moog - JungleMuffin 1992 and Dance Conspiracy - Dub War 1992 were considered Jungle ...but there was no apparent distinction between what was Jungle and what was Jungle Techno

Subjectively, my regular club groove @ Elevation (Shaftesburys) every Friday 'changed' from what (I considered) Hardcore to Jungle almost overnight! This was definitely in Sept 1992 ~ when Elevation was shut down and moved their Friday night to The Kiss FM night (forgot the name at this moment) on the Saturday at Busby's. Of course it wasn't quite 'overnight' :~ Because whilst I went to 'quite a few' raves in '92, it wasn't any longer in underground venues ~ venues where London DnB Jocks must've been already up n coming (Nicky Blackmarket to name one) AND the fact that from certainly April / May of 92, the "Jungle" beats and Ragga styles were massively incorporated into the tunes playing out:~

[Speaking of clubs, I noticed "the club Rage" was referred to. The night was indeed Rage the club, Heaven was Heaven and, if I remember correctly, 'twas on a Thursday night]

The term Drum n Bass (without really researching it at the time) arrived at also about this time (Aug / Sept '92) - certainly not before and, regardless, Jungle / Drum n Bass were used in the same breath, in similar way to Jungle / Techno earlier the same year. I think it was used to mainly highlight the "natural progression," as it was seen, of the sounds ~ taking the slower and deeper sub sounds and the "jungle" 3time beats with fast high hats and snare; Stripping out any uplifting mids + treb, rather to incorporate a "deeper" sound"... More introspect, perhaps?

Yet, in simplest terms, it was apparent that such "progression" seemed a definitive move forward on the darker and more industrial and moody side of the ride, since the explosion of rave popularity in 1991. Such increase was resented in many underground circles. It was "meant" to be a sub-culture I dare suppose... The uplifting sound was perhaps seen to be the most popular (yet particularly 1990 and 1991 tunes in the Hardcore(?) Scene tunes were F'ING H.A.R.D.)

My personal preference was Uplifting and communicative balanced with the harder styles of dance and the Jungle (DnB) of '93 stopped me going out raving ...because I became fed up with going to nights hearing the same beat (funnily enough 3 time) constantly ... not only all set ...but all night ...and the same subs ...the same high hats... with variation only in the occasional alternative ambience and in the drumrolls, which eventually became stupidly quick! Perhaps I was unlucky? ...oh and "rewind rewind rewind" Perhaps it was my pet hate of special k which surfaced also in sept of 1992 in the form of snowballs I couldn't understand the ride ...and as a dancer I "needed" to feel the music not just in my stomach and my head but in my feet and arms

By the By - People draw a distinction between jungle and drum n base but to me, Jungle WAS Drum and Base ...same fan base - same Jocks playing it out. Ratty / Ellis Dee / Grooverider are just three jocks who progressed along this route from the Hardcore(?) scene and, if you give their sets sets of 91 and 92 a listen compared to sets of others ...their styles were similar ..and usually much trancier or slower (don't mean slower) but certainly (my term) "flatter" than others who were playing out at even the same venues same halls or warehouses

But as always I recognise as mentioned by others before me ...it is also a matter of opinion and perspective.

... i'm guessing mainly - but with the tech advances nowadays ... any beat can be chopped n morphed around oversampled and overlapped to create something which works, be it a hip hop beat or a jungle beat and as long as its with a drum and a bass ... ... .. ? i'm sure there's a producer or few who might clarify?

My perspective may appear critical of Jungle Drum n Base ...but its really not... ... I am simply critical of the fact that the dance scene fragmented into all these little pieces - Sure there was always hard techno and hard house acid and Trance .... but to the Core, The GREAT dance sets for a dancer (much as myself) were usually found with influences from right across the Dance Spectrum ... amalgamated by The Jock who could *really* mix up a rush and a ruff 'nuff ride. Carl Cox was 'quite good' in his day :)

Besides There's a time and a place for Everything, right?

spelling 'Oldskool' with a 'ch'

has anyone ever seen the word oldskool spelt with a 'ch'. Why has it been done on this page? surely spelling it with a 'k' is the standard?

The article should be titled Jungle Music. You wouldn't call swing, oldschool swing, or rock oldschool rock.

Acaveinpakistan (15 october 06)

Who put this page up saying that drum n bass was a type of house and that it was for people that wanted to dance faster but weren't into hard house? dnb and jungle is a completely seperate genre, defined by a different energy.

thanx for adding the 2-step thing though, i always forget about that. But i rewrote the article based on what i know of jungle and drum n bass, which since i make it i think is fairly solid. I hope I didn't piss anybody off.

Pema

The reason it is spelled with a 'ch' is because they can spell and aren't illiterate like you!

Moved Jungle (music) to Jungle music

I moved Jungle (music) here to mimic al other musical genres (e.g. Ambient music Techno music Electronic music Heavy metal music ...).

cleaned up the text

hey, i make jungle to, i just cleaned up the text a bit. good job.

Drumstep

I'm going to add a drumstep section. Its jungle drumming with dubstep basslines, not dnb double time drumming, the drumstep snare pattern is an amen just like jungle. The thing is the dubstep kids don't realize this coz of idiots telling them jungle is dnb and they are too young to remember the early 90s to hear the difference, they think its half tempo dnb drumming. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.79.239.106 (talk) 06:41, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Argument for redirect to DnB article

I find that compared to the DnB article, this article is pretty lacking. I'd like to just redirect to the Drum and Bass article (which is excellent), as I feel that any distinction between the two terms has ceased to exist (most DnB artists will tell you the two terms refer to the same thing). What do you guys think about that? Themindset 17:02, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

I feel people are still confused about jungle & drum n bass, which are two different styles. Drum n bass has its roots in jungle music, it gradually changed in sound as more and more people from different muical backgrounds started making jungle-style tracks, influencing eachother and sparking crativity for new sounds and approaches in the genre. About the origins of jungle music: it came to life in the early 90's rave-scene, when people like Slipmatt, Remarc, Doc Scott & many others started integrating reggae, ragga and hiphop into their dance music. Instead of a straight 4/4 beat they started using breakbeats as percussion, backed with slower rub-a-dub style baslines and (short) vocal clips put on top. The classic track "On a ragga tip" by Slipmatt is a good example of this merging of styles. -unsigned comment

unfortunately, that distinction is no longer considered to be valid by the majority of artists/fans of the genres. Themindset 23:43, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You still got that hot-line to the masses mindset?tactik 13:48, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, I'd like to agree with Tactik and the unsigned comment above. The views of the majority of dnb fans (which is a significantly larger scene currently (in the UK at least), do not negate the views of the sizeable group of DJs, musicologists, and producers who do see a difference. As with all underground music, it is difficult to find a definitive source to cite, but the fact that flyers and artists themselves distinguish the genres (eg Mu's blurb about Bizzy b - http://www.planet-mu.com/artist49.html) suggests the distinction is a meaningful one. I would say the key difference is the much larger variation in the rhythm of the breakbeat during the course of a jungle tune. There would be more heirarchical sense in referring to DnB and jungle as subgenres of Breakbeat hardcore, with equal status.

My second point is that there would be some benefit in adding a section about the production of Oldskool jungle, which is not really mentioned. The prevalence of certain sounds, along with the emphasis on heavily editing breakbeats, would be worth adding, maybe linking to the Amen page...

Also has anyone ever seen a good source for the claim that the word 'rinse' originated in the firing of a clip of bullets from a gun, and was adopted by junglists due to the similarity in sound of the mashing of breaks to the firing of an automatic weapon?

82.3.85.167 17:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)Rrritalin

whole bunch of text added by 210.193.133.1

Almost all good stuff, just removed some POV stuff and formatted and fixed some typos. interesting stuff. Themindset 18:17, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

The new stuff is much needed whoever added this. Jungle Techno was indeed a term I and many others used back in 1992. I'll see if I can add labels and artists from that time. I belive the term was used in 1991 after the self titled Jungle Techno record. --Revolt 10:07, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Text added by 62.3.70.68

This was added to the article, although it seems more like a discussion of the article than anything that belongs on the page. So it can stay here unless someone can find a use for it. Mushin ^talk 22:55, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

It was never called Jungle "Techno" in the UK, the origin of the sound. Such references are incorrect. Jungle is breakbeat orientated. Techno is a completely different Genre. 62.3.70.68

Ibiza disagrees - as such words are mentioned on their early tracks, so there's something in it. Try here [1], [2], [3], [4]. It's nothing to do with different gernes. It's a certain form of breakbeat with techno sounding bits - no different than "breakbeat hardcore" had many techno riffs, hoovers and stabs. What else can they be exactly? There's also MC GQ going on about "are you ready for some bloodclot jungle techno?" in that big 1994 track, which name escapes me at the moment, so that's a credible source straight away. Also Five-O going on about it too in mix tapes. The "Techno" is the early Euro hardcore strain here by the way. Same place where Techstep gets its name from. --Revolt 19:14, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

The tune with the "are you ready for some bloodclart jungle techno" was The Way by DJ Taktix - the MC was Mad P from Top Buzz. Jungle Techno/Tekno is a term that has been used for years. There were even a series of compilations put out a number of years ago - see http://www.rolldabeats.com/search/title/jungle/tekno and http://www.rolldabeats.com/search/title/jungle/techno. Some people disagree as to how much it is a valid term but for many it's something that describes the 92/93 style of hardcore moving into jungle that still retained a very techno influence e.g. Basement Records. There is, undeniably, a huge techno influence in early hardcore Mrhaste 20:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Why shouldn't Jungle and DnB be merged?

Can anyone give a good reason why jungle is differen't enough from dnb to warrant a separate article? --Frantik 00:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that the early origins of the two are similar but if you say Jungle you are usually talking about more off-beat, cut up sound (still with strong ragga elements). The term is still used in the free party scene where as drum and bass is considered more commercial and what is played in big clubs. I think this article needs lots of work but that shouldn't be a reason to merge it. Rex the first 14:11, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes but Drum and bass can also contain cut up beats and ragga elements. There's not really any concrete differences between the two which would make me think jungle warrants its own page, at least as far as i can tell. --Frantik 23:36, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I disagree. I still think that there is music that I would call Jungle but I would not call drum and bass and that alone would seem grounds for a separate article but if there is a majority for merging I'm ok with it. Rex the first 15:04, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

It's a bit of a knotty problem isn't it? My feeling is that although jungle did come first and was around before the drum'n'bass label was coined, my feeling is that it is more of a sub genre of drum'n'bass than a seperate genre in its own right - d'n'b being quite diverse as it is... I would go for merging it into d'n'b, but making sure that the d'n'b entry mentions the points that you make. SupernautRemix 18:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Jungle came from hardcore... 1993-1997. But by 1996 and 97, most of it was Jump Up and had lost the detail and the beats became repetative. After 1997, its all Drum and Bass... repetitive beats, boring just-like-that-other track basslines... But even during the heyday of pure oldskool jungle (93-95) you can find the influences that would come together to form drum and bass. If I had the time, I could go from label to label within the genres and show you the exact release where the music ceased to be jungle and became dNb. While the difference between the genres is hard to explain, any real junglist will be able to make a sour face and say "man... i can't stand drum and bass". The dNb heads may like to think that their genre encompasses jungle... maybe even some of them are formerly the pioneers of jungle. But that is just ego driven BS from guys who know deep in their hearts that when they were creating and innovating jungle, they were doing something revolutionary- another difference between the genres in the revolutionary nature of Jungle and what it says... as can be noted in the names of many jungle labels, now churning out dNb or simply defunkt. Anyway... Any oldskool pioneers who want to lump the two together have earned the right to do so, but in their hearts they know that while dNb may be more commercially successful than jungle, it is no longer the same music. ----nomaad

- There are many Jungle tracks you would no way assign the term dNb, and there are probably even more dNb tracks you would never call jungle. There are a few tracks that are stuck in the middle, but when you take a Jungle track and a dNb track you can usually say which is which. Jungle faded to dNb, obviously there was a transition period but the two are completely different. Bit like Michael Jackson when he turned white. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.59.194 (talk) 00:56, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I am a producer of 18 years...

Jungle and dnb are Different!

Pure Jungle:

1. Male Ragga or raggae vocal. Often Jamaican patia 
2. Amen BreakBeat drum pattern. Sharp high end, no compression on kick drum 
3. Horns, gun shots, DJ Turntable rewinds and shout outs used as FX
4. Simple Bassline low subbass stabs

Pure DnB:

1. Urban European / American vocal including females 
2. Simple Breakbeat drums, compressed punchy percussion, snare drum and high hat
3. Soft FX including atmospheric build ups and breakdowns 
4. Bassline merged to flow from one pitch change to another

Any contradiction to the above pure forms is simply a cross over track and quite common when a new genre emerges, it is not until years later a new genre is identified as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.79.239.106 (talk) 07:04, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I find all these uses of 'genre' mute, it's all been used before to represent different music for decades, and so trying to pin down DnB / Jungle by using terms such as 'Breakbeat', is ridiculous. Grand Master Flash in the 80's used to make 'Breakbeat' using old vinyl and turntables, extracting drum breaks out of old records and switching between them. The Amen break sample does not constitute 'Breakbeat' music or any other, to be precise, 'Breakbeat' means to 'Break the beat', and although used and abused as being a particular type or style of music many times from the 70's right up until now (Breakbeat is used to describe what I call USA Breaks today) - Which is also now given the sub genre 'Nu Skool'

This is why we all find it so hard to pigeon hole music styles and have our own POV and experiences of that music to categorise it, which will always contradict one another.

Breabeat = Hardcore, so how can it = Drum & Bass, where as I have already mentioned it means USA Breaks currently.

Hardcore = Jungle Techno, but it was also called Rave, what about Techno, that term has been used since the 80's (well the first time I heard it on a track - before Detroit Techno was coined), but Techno today means something completely different from what the late 80's and early 90's used it to represent. House does not mean 'Chicago'.

I struggle to point out the differences between 'Bouncy Techno' & 'Happy Hardcore' at times, both terms have been used to represent the same music or different music throughout the 90's & 00's along with countless other categorisations, rightly or wrongly!

Even the above comment claims Drum & Bass came after 1997, and puts Jump Up as a form of Jungle, not to me it isn't, I have always known it as 'Jump Up - Drum & Bass'.

I'm not sure that anyone will ever be able to pinpoint specific genres or their sub genres and personally I think we should all stop trying, because we will never agree with each other. The fact all these teminologies are used to represent different styles, at different times makes it impossible to do so in my opinion.

However for the purpose of this debate I have added my point of view at the bottom of this page outlining what I beleive is the dfference between DnB vs Jungle having been a raver since 89' and been to many raves and own countless tracks covering all these genres. DJ - C.D.C. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.109.150.1 (talk) 07:50, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Redirect to drum and bass

I recently took the best parts of this page and added them to the drum and bass page. I think this page should be a redirect to drum and bass now since there is no unique content on this page. opinions? Frantik 07:19, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

actually, i decided to just go ahead and do it.. Frantik 07:32, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

cheers. Themindset 20:14, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

this page is unencyclopedic and really should be reverted to the redirect to dnb

Right at the beginning of this article we find "large population of black punters".. which isn't exactly a phrase one expects to find in an encyclopedia.

A fair of the information on this page is incorrect. For example: It can be definitively stated that Jungle came into existence when someone first sampled a famous drum-solo from the song "Amen, brother Amen broether was sampled many times before the term jungle was used, in hiphop and in many rave tracks. Ragga jungle is definitely known for it's heavy use of the amen, but it didn't originate with ragga.

I made this page a redirect to DNB recently. I think the best parts of this page should be added to the dnb and ragga pages, and have this page return to the redirect.

Frantik 11:24, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

This page is a mess. Lines starting with uncapitalised letters, unformatted headers, a collection of sketchy facts at best. Why exactly is this better than a redirect to the dnb article? I say redirect. Mushin ^talk 17:07, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

And what is "jungle asides - random quotes"?! Mushin ^talk 21:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

why redirect when it's a notable enough style to merit it's own article? just edit and rewrite the bad parts into good parts --MilkMiruku 00:34, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

There's been extensive discussion regarding why this should be a redirect, with the vast majority agreeing on redirect. Great work had been done to incorporate the Jungle music info into the DnB article, and what Jungle music has now become is embarrassing. Themindset 20:29, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

oh my god!! not uncapitalised letters!!!*dun-dun-dunnnnnn.... and you say that WE'RE splitting hairs?!tactik 17:22, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

That helps a lot. This situation is already a mess, I have no interest in getting into petty arguments. My point was that the page was a mess. Mushin ^talk 19:11, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

i cleaned it up and made it encyclopedic a few days ago so i'd say it's worthy of existing seperate to the dnb article. basically put, if people are saying that 'jungle' is just 'old skool dnb', although being called something different (i.e. 'jungle') at that point in time, then with all the subgenre articles there are for other dnb subgenres like hardstep, intelligent drum and bass, Jump-Up, Liquid funk, techstep, etc, why not have one for 'old skool dnb', or, more accurately titled , 'jungle'? --MilkMiruku 00:51, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

@mushin - ok, cool... so don't be petty then - wikipedi is NOT about punctuation.. it's about Information! =D

Agree with Milk - the jungle article shall have a line where it says "also known as 'old skool d&b'".

I'm happy with that compromise.

And the "Jungle asides - random quotes" was a collection of information regarding the "jungle = d&b discussion" and other interesting points which i hadn't gotten around to properly writing about, it was a repository of useful/related information, but Wiki's copyright rules meant that it has to come down until i receive authorisation to include it.

With all the unique info on this page AND the fact that some of you recognise a genre before drum&bass as it's known today (whether it be Jungle or Old Skool d&b or whatever...) shows that a relevant article (as this is) is NOT out of place.

Because that misrepresents the current reality of jungle and dnb being synonymous. Themindset 04:25, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Maybe in the USA it misrepresents it (or canada, or wherever).. that's why i noted yr contention in the article. I'm trying FFS.

And the more I look at the d&b article the more I find huge glaring POV crap and good ol', plain ol', mistakes.tactik 04:33, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

mindset has decided that his is the only POV that matters. You call THIS discussion? If this is how you ran the d&b article then it really is no wonder that it's badly written and wrong in many places. I gave you my ICQ number to chat with me about this stuff... but not one of you has taken me up on it?! Why are you hiding behind these boards? mindset + frantik- Why won't you guys discuss anything... do you just edit when you hope no-ones watching? For every point where jungle and d&b are mentioned together I can probably provide you with 3 more where they've been seperated. tactik 04:49, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

the only way you're going to make any headway is to finding and citing lots of references from big jungle/dnb names and reputable sources. i simply don't have the time for this atm and dnb isn't my primary edm subject anyway (alternative electronic is). --MilkMiruku 18:39, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Info moved over from Jungle Music

I moved the contents of Jungle Music to this page. There are a few comments on the content, which are included below: --Frantik 03:14, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[start of copied comments]

not this bs again!

In the UK, Jungle was also the genre that drum&bass and it's various styles evolved from, although this point is contended by drum&bass fans from the USA.

how many times does this have to be discussed. dnb didn't evolve from jungle cause they're the same fscking thing. the two terms have been used interchangably since 1993! i hate typical two step drum and bass and love cut up breakbeats but the fact remains that both can be called jungle or drum and bass.

In this underground scene drum&bass is frowned as it is seen as being to mainstream and attracting a chav crowd

this quote right here gives it away that you're just using the term drum and bass to signify the popular shit and the term jungle to signify a more underground sound. i know a lot of fans of ragga jungle don't like typical dnb styles and thus they want to enfoce a division between jungle and dnb, but the fact remains that there is nothing that really makes one drum and bass and one jungle.

--Frantik 21:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Since it's clear that this arguement is never going to go away, i tried to make the page less pov. perhaps there needs to be a jungle vs dnb section on this page too? --Frantik 21:51, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I think you are right, it is fine to put the article that not everyone is agreed and that (some/most/a few) people use the terms to mean (the same/a different) thing and I think someone who thinks they are the same should edit the page so both views are clear Rex the first 13:47, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[end of copied comments]

I really think this argument is a special case of a broader argument.. There are, as I see it, two strong arguments:

One states that the widespread use of the words jungle and DnB in the personal experience of the writers (there appear to be a few of you), are used interchangeably. Fair enough. I know lots of people who use the words in that manner. There are also plenty of people who know a fair bit about both styles of music who hold the POV that they are essentially the same. (I don't have the citations for this, but I'm sure those pushing for this interpretation will be able to supply.) The other counters that certain producers, djs, promoters, and ravers use the terms to denote styles which are, from their POV, sufficiently separate to be defineable as different. There are a number of consistent distinctions drawn between the two genres, generally alluding to the production values, rhythm and form. These are enough to constitute a musical difference. Also, as one of the proponents of the 'merge with Dnb' POV mentioned, some ravers prefer to associate with jungle as having a different raving ethos.

I think the root problem actually occurs higher up the categorisation order. The above confusion comes from the decision to categorise Dnb separately from Breakbeat. Doing so allows the popularity of the style to influence its place in the conceptual heirarchy that has otherwise been adhered to. If jungle was nested in a tree that went Electronic music> Breakbeat > Breakbeat Hardcore (of which oldskool breakbeat hardcore would be an offshoot) > Drum n Bass > Oldskool Jungle , there would be little to argue against. It seems silly that Jungle should be denied an entry when genres as closely related as speedcore, breakcore and drill n bass get separate pages (nb. I'm not trying to say there aren't distinctions, just that they are minor!!!).

end of point!

82.3.85.167 18:03, 1 February 2007 (UTC)RRRitalin.

All teh Jungle/DnB debates will be resolved by asking this : is it a personal point of view or do you have references? I think they should be distinct until we get citations —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.196.185.12 (talk) 06:34, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

moved to Oldschool jungle

This new title makes much more sense, and is already in line with much of the content. Reading through the article, I must mention that some of the writting in here is horrendous, overuse of the word "whilst" and random words inserted into sentences, clearly POV statements like "this does not seem likely" without reference or citation... please everyone, wherever this article ends up on wikipedia, could those who are editing the content heavily please try to focuse on writing a quality article.These unsigned comments were made at 16:50, 6 April 2006 by User:Themindset

good move.. and have to agree that the aricle could use work, though it's in a lot better shape than previous jungle articles. --Frantik 03:05, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

could someone talk about where the samples that are used alot in jungle

Several points on the title here. First, this should be called "Jungle music". "Old school" is clearly added by those who feel that drum n bass and jungle are the same thing, so because of their genealogy, "old school drum n bass" is jungle. "Old school jungle" is therefore misleading since one would require a "Jungle" page, as we have with "hip-hop" and "Old school hip-hop". Definitely Jungle music. Second, if "Old school" is seen as absolutely necessary, with a "ch" it should be two words, as in "Old school jungle". "Old school" can be found in the dictionary as two words. A somewhat common variation would be "old skool" and it is debatable whether or not this is more common. Hip-hop also uses both spellings. Since this is an encyclopaedia article, the more standardised form is clearly more appropriate for the title: "Old school jungle", then with AKAs below.RoniGlaser (talk) 19:32, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

mess

Hey guys, this page is a mess! Perhaps somebody could clean it up so is at least a solid start article?

--Dustek 10:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to spend a weekend on it. Jungle is not drum and bass anymore than all music since 1910 is classical... Which, if you know your music, really, it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.79.239.106 (talk) 06:33, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

This page is god awful.

Notable artists who were influenced by jungle are Squarepusher, Aphex Twin and Venetian Snares and Shitmat. <--- The person who added this, is a complete and utter pretentious f*****. And I agree with Dustek; this whole article is a mess. --James599 (talk) 14:04, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Please refrain from using homophobic language, which I have removed. If I see it again I will report you. Malick78 (talk) 18:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
- Anybody offended by the letter f and five stars HAS to be a pretentious faggot.11:42, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, not the best way to criticise something but this is still a terrible page. Someone clearly really loves drum n bass.... Anyone who thinks they're the exact same genre is an idiot who knows nothing whatsoever about jungle. Jungle deserves better than this. Bah. --86.129.119.70 (talk) 09:06, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Many pages on wikipedia are god awful, because nobody is really interested in them. --TylerDurdenn (talk) 14:57, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

As an oldschool raver I would have to agree with the comment 'This page is god awful'.

Jungle is not Drum and Bass in it's purest form (though is a form of DnB), DnB came before Jungle (or arguably alongside it), just look at Breakdown Records / Moving Shadow / Suburban Bass circa 1990-1993 crickey even Jumpin' & Pumpin' (also known for some awesome oldschool Hardcore / Techno) - (note many sites clasify this early Drum & Bass as Jungle - it isn't - not in my book anyway!)

http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/breakdown_records/bdrlp001/

(The funniest thing about the link above is the genre it is listed under - Genre: Jungle(Atmospheric, Ragga Jungle), Reggae, Hardcore(Darkside) , yet the title kinda makes it clear what genre it is 'Drum & Bass Selection - Volume 1' - no wonder everyone is so confused! - Come on, please point out a single track on that album that could possibly be classed as Ragga Jungle or Reggae - Just because it has a Dub / Reggae / Ragga sample, sound, influence or vocal in it doesn't make it that genre.

What also seems to be missing in all this which is clearly highlighted by the Fantazia (Top Buzz 1991/92 - new years eve rave) , the genre of that era "Jungle Techno" - how many times does Mad P need to say it? Living In Darkness ring any bells?

Check it out, it has to be one of the best 'Jungle Techno' sets ever produced! Plus the best MCing you will ever hear, nice one Mad P - RESPECT!

http://soundcloud.com/lmiguelonl/top-buzz-fantazia-nye-1991

How people can comment above and claim it was never called Jungle Techno (Jungle Tekno) in the UK clearly never went raving in the UK! Nor seems to have heard of Top Buzz, Jumpin & Pumpin Records or a plethora of other white labelled tracks of the early 90's.

http://www.rolldabeats.com/label/jumpin_and_pumpin — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.109.150.1 (talk) 22:09, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Jungle Techno and Drum & Bass came before Jungle (I use the term 'Jungle' here to represent the UK rave scene circa 1994) such as albums put out by Street Tuff Records http://www.discogs.com/Various-Jungle-Hits-Volume-1/release/23368 and is not the same as Drum & Bass! All you have to do is listen to the Breakdown Records & Street Tuff Records albums to hear the difference! - You will hear Jungle / Ragga Jungle on the Street Tuff album NOT the Breakdown Records album!

It has similar roots and is related yes, but that's it, Jungle is a relative of Jungle Techno / Drum & Bass / Hardcore / Breakbeat (original Breakbeat not USA Breaks! - which is an amalgamation of UK Breakbeat / Drum & Bass / Hardcore and USA Electro!)

Of course this is just my opinion as an oldschool raver & 80's B-Boy, so Your Milage May Vary!

I also accept that if Jungle Techno was before Drum & Bass then surely Jungle came first (Contradiction in terms perhaps), but as the difference between Jungle Techno / Drum & Bass / Hardcore of the early 90's and the 'Jungle' of the mid 90's is so clear to hear, if you are going to pigeon hole this music, Jungle and Drum & Bass cannot and should not ever be classed as the same!

Edit:

I just googled Wiki for Jungle Techno and it redirected to the Drum & Bass page, this sums up how usless and inacurate these Wiki pages are for defining E.D.M. genres, anyone who thinks Jungle Techno is Drum & Bass should seek medical advice because I think you might have problems with your hearing. Seriously just listen to the Breakdown Records album and the Top Buzz set, if you can't tell the difference you must have something wrong with your hearing or your speakers or both!

End Edit :— Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.109.150.1 (talk) 14:02, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

To add brevity / clarity to the Jungle Techno / Drum & Bass / Jungle debate, here are some examples that in my opinion demonstrate the differences.

Jungle Techno

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQVv40_9NSo :- 2 Bad Mice - Bombscare

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zobC334l-E8 :- Top Buzz - Living In Darkness

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzbs2HbDc7g :- Blame - Music Takes You

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc3rD79FT7o :- Hackney Hardcore - Dance Hall Dangerous

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AxoqxhwmY8 :- Soundcorp - Dreamfinder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19QoXzSpyZk :- Skanna - Heaven

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sE_nCvt7Mw :- Kev Bird & Wax Doctor - Tough But Nice — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.16.234 (talk) 22:03, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Jungle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nogCbX3Hq4 :- Conquering Lion - Code Red (94 remix)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksEG0WCxJAA :- Redlight - Coca Cola Bottle Shape

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL2Bgj-za5k :- M Beat feat General Levy - Incredible

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1m09WTWIx8 :- New Blood - Worries In Da Dance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rn7L8E6dynU :- The House Crew - Super Hero (My Knight)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qDjo2ZPAuE :- Baby D - Casanova (Down To Earth Remix)

Drum & Bass

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8KYOANsLi8 :- Subnation - Scottie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRKRNJPaFf8 :- Andy C & Randall - Sound Control

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIJrenvgzYE :- Shimon - Predator

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3hzWnVx6E8 :- Johnny Jungle - Johnny '94 (Origin Unknown Remix)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3a8BIXhquY :- Amazon II - Booyaaa!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9Z9Alr5NWc :- Remarc & Lewi Cifer - Ricky

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PahtOOQWJ8Q :- Slipmatt - Breaking Free

And yes I know 'Breaking Free' is classed as Hardcore and was even released on a Happy Hardcore album by Jumpin & Pumpin Records, but I wanted to show that no-one gets it right all the time and come on, it aint Happy Hardcore is it? (Breakbeat Hardcore at a push, perhaps) but let's face it, it's Drum & Bass!

I also appreciate that early 90's Breakbeat / Hardcore is synonymous with Jungle Techno, but never the less it was still called Jungle Techno as well as simply calling it Rave!

Now of course Drum & Bass and Jungle are like brother and sister, from the same family, but just like a man and a women they are distinctly different. So do I accept they cross over?, of couse I do! here are some classic examples.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8RNX9AMxfI :- MA2 - Hearing Is Believing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrvW4gEI-7E :- Urban ShakeDown - Arsonist A.K.A Some Justice 95

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJthDVvG2J4 :- 88.3 Feat. Lisa May - Wishing On A Star

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHFGB4HFPjM :- King Of The Jungle - King of the jungle - (Vip Mix)

All I can do now is hope I have provided some good solid examples and given some usefull insight to help make this page better and give each genre the respect and admiration they deserve. I also conceed some may disagree and I respect your opinion, however, I hope I've helped, even if only a little!

93.109.150.1 (talk) 02:30, 30 September 2012 (UTC) 81.99.144.32 (talk) 20:00, 3 October 2012 (UTC) Final edit because I know tracks like MA2 - Hearing Is Believing (plus a few others I listed!), can be considered 'Jump Up', (Afterall Jungle has a Jump Up vibe to it!) but that's how I see Jungle then evolving into 'Jump Up - Drum & Bass' in the late 90's, and then to what some now call 'Modern Drum & Bass'.

Here is an example of what I consider true 'Jump Up - Drum & Bass'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1mwrJ6xRRw :- Aphrodite - King of the Beats

Which incidently is a Jump Up remake of a classic 80's Electro track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5nQ-ZRCjms :- Pumpkin & All Stars- Here Comes That Beat!

I even made my own hardcore style homage remix (Jumpcore perhaps?)

http://dance-music.org/cgi-bin/free-mp3-music-downloads.pl?search=Rolling

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.109.150.1 (talk) 11:43, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

There are distinctions between each of these styles and one could nitpick, argue and split hairs over this forever, so I shall not say any more on the Drum & Bass vs Jungle debate!

93.109.150.1 (talk) 08:15, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I would also like to add, that electronic music has been known as 'Techno' as far back as the early 80's, simply check out 'Electro 4 - Streetsounds' , you will find a track by 'Cybotron' called 'Techno City'. 'Whoa Techno City, hope you enjoy your stay, welcome to Techno City, you will never want to go away' (and I haven't!)

http://www.discogs.com/Various-Street-Sounds-Electro-4/release/25795

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3owC4lV6cE :- Cybotron - Techno City

Even in the 80's Streetsounds went from labelling their Electro albums from 'Electro is aural sex' to 'Electro is Hip Hop', do you honestly believe Electro & Hip Hop are the same thing? Because I don't!

The genres of the 90's, 00's and beyond are just BS classifications to pigeon hole music styles that have been around donkey's years, just like 'Electro' stood for 'Electronic Music', now pigeon holed as E.D.M. , 'Techno' stands for 'Music made by Technology', it isn't new, and doesn't mean music by Scott Brown, Dave Angel or any other artist nor a specific period in time!

The fact R&B no longer means 'Rhythm & Blues' highlights this point succinctly!

I have even seen a youtube video claiming a genre of 'Club', well surely that all depends on what club you go to, I've never been to a Jazz club and heard E.D.M. of any description, have you?

The problem with today's E.D.M. culture is this obsession to put dance music into so many genres, pigeon hole it and the BS snobbery that goes with it, take house for example, how many sub genres are there, disco, hard, deep, happy, funky, whare, progressive, blah, blah...

A good tune is a good tune regardless of genre, so why not make like the oldschool label and just 'Shut up and dance!'

Peace, Unity, Love & Having Fun!

DJ - C.D.C. 93.109.150.1 (talk) 14:09, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Not Dubstep

I removed the term Dubstep from the section entitled "Peak", Jungle was not called Dubstep from 1995 onwards- no-one used the term until 2002 at the earliest and then about a different strand of underground bass music.

30 hertz (talk) 09:27, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 30 October 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved — Amakuru (talk) 11:55, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Oldschool jungle → Jungle music – This article isn't just about oldskool jungle, it covers jungle music up until today. Not sure how it got moved to this oddly hyper-correct title (oldskool in the context of rave music is not usually spelled with a ch) but I suggest it be moved back to be in line with other genre articles such as house music, trap music and hip hop music. – filelakeshoe (t / c)  12:32, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Support to match actual article scope. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ< 20:49, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Support long overdue. gentlecollapse6 (talk) 01:37, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved ]as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Ambient jungle

This is a term i'm not very familiar with at all, and I'm not completely alien to this genre. Can we get a quote from that book? I can't read it from the link. Andrzejbanas (talk) 20:59, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Im not typing out the related text in the source for your personal convenience. It’s there. Find a computer that will allow you to see the source like everybody else. Not my problem. gentlecollapse6 (talk) 23:38, 6 May 2018 (UTC)