Talk:Julian Green

Nationality

Please stop changing Green's nationality. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Nationality#Nationality to indicate discusses how a player's nationality should be presented. The rule is "most recent representation, birthplace/citizenship if none". Being called to a training camp does not equate to representation. Being on the bench during an official match does not equate to representation. Playing for a team during a FIFA-sanctioned match does.

As of February 2014, he is representing Germany at the U19 level. Yes he was called to participate in a training camp for the US men's team, but that does not make him an American player in FIFA's eyes. He may continue to play for the German U19 team. He may even play with the German U23s, the team that would be involved in the 2018 Olympics, and even win a medal with them if that is the case, and later switch to the US senior men's team. The article may change over time, but adding dual citizenship to the first sentence should not happen. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:03, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Further WP:OPENPARA states that an individual's ethnicity should not be mentioned in the opening paragraph and so stating that he is "American-born" is not appropriate while he is playing for Germany. That is explained in the article. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:41, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

"American" is a nationality not an ethnicity, and place of birth does not define ethnicity either. Ethnicity, citizenship, and place of birth are three completely different concepts, which may or may not overlap in any particular case. . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.182.245 (talk) 00:59, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Either way, his nationality under FIFA is still German-American since he is eligible play for either nation despite playing in the qualifying tournament for Germany since he had American citizenship at birth. Stop removing the "American" from his page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hellas12345 (talk • contribs) 22:51, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

No. He's playing for Germany and he's German. This has been the case with about a hundred other articles under similar situations. Stop edit warring over this. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:27, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

For instance we have Ersan Gülüm. Born in Australia but eligible to play for Turkey. While he had only played for the Australian U23 side, he was listed as Australian and now he is listed as only Turkish. Feel free to check the edit history on that one. It was discussed, among other locations, at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 76#Ersan Gülüm again. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:44, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

You keep referencing this :" In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable.". He's a citizen of both countries and is still an American citizen. Edgar Castillo plays for the US national team but has in the past played for Mexico's national teams, yet his page still refers to him as a Mexican American. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hellas12345 (talk • contribs) 00:11, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Other examples of this precedent are: Fabian Johnson, Terrence Boyd, and John Anthony Brooks, and Timothy Chandler. This has been consistently done for years, so Julian being referred to as German-American is fine and has been an accepted practice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hellas12345 (talk • contribs) 00:17, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I am neither German nor American, and I have replaced the confusing and unclear introduction with accurate and neutral phrasing based on the current facts. Due the prevalence of the use hyphenization for ethnic classification of U.S citizens, "German-American" does not give equal weight to both nationalities, it rather implies that he is a sole citizenship American with German ancestry, possibly very distant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.182.245 (talk) 00:58, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I fixed those examples because as WP:OPENPARA states "Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity);" not both. Please read OPENPARA. Don't use the argument that just because other articles are doing things wrong doesn't mean we should keep doing things wrong here. If you have any other articles that are doing things wrong, feel free to bring them to my attention here or on my talk page. Also, anon's point is also quite correct. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:46, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

So now we have an edit war with one editor breaking 3RR. I have brought this article up at the Wikipedia football project and expect a few other editors to come here and the article may be locked in some way. Please read the guidelines I have pointed you to. Thanks. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:21, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Coming from WP:FOOTY, I have to say I think Hellas12345 is on the right side of the argument. I don't see why the intro can't simply describe him as an "American-German footballer...". (Also, I'm not sure why Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Nationality#Nationality to indicate was invoked at the start of the discussion, as it was a proposal that only has comments opposing it). Number 57 12:51, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Followig this discussion on many other article it should only be german, this is what I have always seen WT:FOOTY use, with support from WP:OPENPARA. QED237 (talk) 16:37, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Agreed that it should be simply "German". FIFA only recognizes one nationality per player at any one time, and at least for now, Green is a German footballer. His birthplace/dual citizenship can be mentioned later in the lead and in the body. Mosmof (talk) 17:44, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I can't see the merit in these statements. Basing someone's nationality solely on their FIFA eligiblity is at best glossing over the real picture, and at worst, completely misleading. Many players play for countries with which they hold a tenuous connection, and to make a clear statement that they are a "Footish footballer" is simply wrong. If this guy holds citizenship of both countries, why would one be omitted? Number 57 18:21, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Sure, but I think this is where it helps to separate "nationality" (at least in football terms) from "citizenship" or "country of origin". We're talking about people whose notoriety is based almost entirely on their profession, and their profession considers them of a certain nationality. In that sense, Julian Green is a German footballer until otherwise announced, and there's nothing "simply wrong" about that. Of course, it's worth mentioning that he's born in the States and holds an American passport (i.e. country of origin and citizenship), but that's secondary to his football nationality. Mosmof (talk) 18:44, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't believe it is secondary - footballing nationality is not the same thing as real nationality - and describing someone in such simple terms when there may be a very complex scenario behind it is something I would only expect to see from some of our more extreme nationalist editors. In this case it is clear that there is some merit to describing Green as German (as he grew up there, unlike several players who get calls ups as an adult to a country they've never visited before), but it is still not giving the reader the whole picture. The current version of the article, whilst clumsy, is far better. Number 57 18:54, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

The point of the opening sentence is not to give the reader "the whole picture". Mosmof (talk) 19:09, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

In general I agree, but it should not gloss over facts to the extent that it gives a misleading picture. Number 57 19:12, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

In specific I agree that it gives readers the idea of which nation the player represents. Since his ability to play the sport is his sole reason for inclusion here (a.k.a. notability) that is the only reason discussion that needs to be made in the lede sentence. We could follow that up, still in the lede, with a statement to the effect of, "he is eligible to play for both the German and US senior men's national teams and has not elected which nation to represent" or something similar with appropriate links to the national teams. We could also change the lede to state nothing about nationality and simply state that he is a footballer who plays for Bayern Munich and the German national U23 team. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:33, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I've removed mention of nationality/citizenship from the first sentence and mentioned his dual citizenship in the next. Feel free to edit as you see fit, obviously. Mosmof (talk) 16:34, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

That is probably the best choice. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:51, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Ask yourself this: Does he know the USA National Anthem or the German? If you think he knows only the German national anthem, you need to identify that he's a German. The kid can barely speak English. Yes, he has a USA Passport, but that does not make him ONLY an American. He has a German passport which is identified in the next sentence. Please be respectful of this and quit arguing the silly point of what FIFA thinks he is. They are not Uebergods on Nationality. As the articles of the past all indicate (Thomas Dooley as an example), the correct way to do things (as have been done for ages) is to label Green as a German American. End of story. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:558:6020:1A8:6826:BBB:7D1A:2F7F (talk) 20:30, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Ask yourself this: what nation does he play for and then read Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Nationality#Nationality to indicate and understand what FIFA nationality is. You're wrong on a lot of different fronts, but this is the worst of them. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:35, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Change of nationality

FWIW, FIFA has approved Green's "change of association". Not sure if it's binding, or if it only goes into effect when Green appears in a FIFA-sanctioned match. Mosmof (talk) 15:35, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Exactly. I believe that it is binding though and he can't technically play for any other team now. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:53, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

An administrator should add this update to the article, citing that link. This should also put an end to the editing dispute that got this page locked in the first place. Digifiend (talk) 18:00, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Not until he plays for the USMNT. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:44, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Walter Görlitz - Actually it is binding, he can no longer play for Germany even if he never plays for the US team. Please get the rules straight before making statements like this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hellas12345 (talk • contribs) 23:51, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Still we NEVER change nationality until he has played for new country! QED237 (talk) 00:01, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

As for the lede in the nationality, it now reads "is an American professional". It should not be changed to "American-German" "German-American" or "German-born American". This is based on WP:OPENPARA and WP:MOSBIO. The former states "Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity)" and goes on to say "Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." The later duplicates that. In short Green is known for being a footballer/soccer player, not for switching nationalities. There are many examples where this has been applied. If there are any further example where this has not been correctly applied, please feel free to continue to list them here and I will fix them. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:26, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 24 March 2014

In the lead, use the hyphen: Germany Under-19 team, United States Under-18 team. '''tAD''' (talk) 19:34, 24 March 2014 (UTC) '''tAD''' (talk) 19:34, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

 Not done No reason for a change in the consensus edit now. The current wording, "is a footballer who plays as a winger for Bayern Munich and Germany Under 19 team. As a dual citizen of Germany and the United States, he has also made one appearance for the United States Under 18 team." is adequate until he plays for the USMNT, at which time we can make an official change. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:38, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Future edit requests should be made after a new consensus has been achieved. That's consensus, not unanimity of voice. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:40, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 24 March 2014

I think I was misinterpreted in my last suggestion, so I'll copy the text:

Julian Wesley Green (born 6 June 1995) is a footballer who plays as a winger for Bayern Munich and Germany Under-19 team. As a dual citizen of Germany and the United States, he has also made one appearance for the United States Under-18 team.

All I asked for was to put in the hyphens between "Under" and the age. '''tAD''' (talk) 19:42, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

'''tAD''' (talk) 19:42, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Question: You mean Under-19 and Under-18? They seem to already have hyphens to me, no? — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(t • e • c)} 23:17, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

To me they do noy have hyphens in the lead so I support the request. QED237 (talk) 23:28, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Done. I've added the hyphens, and I've also made "under-18" and "under-19" lower case, as well as adding "the" before "Germany under-19 team", as this seems to be how the terms are used elsewhere on Wikipedia. If anyone objects to any of that, just ping me and I will change it. Best — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 03:18, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

German vs. American

I will get slack for this, but "German born American soccer player" is similar to similar situations as with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_Hargreaves or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Mutumba or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javier_Balboa or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathis_Bolly or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdelhamid_El_Kaout and hundreds of other similare entries on Wikipedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.203.182.106 (talk) 18:17, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I am encouraged to use the talk page, but get no answer. What does that mean? 64.203.182.106 (talk) 18:39, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, you didn't see what I wrote above in the Change of nationality section.

I have fixed those now. Any others? Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:47, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Oh, and the fact that you didn't immediately get a response is that most wikipedia editors are not paid to do so and so you have to deal with others who may be be living life at Roanoke speed. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:49, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I just thought that I was following your directions, and then...nothing, so I thought I must have done even more things wrong.

Has the editors of Wikipedia done some serious thinking about Footballers/Soccer players? The idea of an encyclopedia is to be informative. To provide the best information possible. I would argue that only listing the FIFA nationality is not very informative. Especially when it comes to players who have never lived in the nation they represent on a international level. Green is obviousely not an "American" in teh same sence as Dempsey

Here is another one for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_de_Guzm%C3%A1n 64.203.182.106 (talk) 19:01, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

We have and that's why we have this guideline. Their nation of birth is immaterial in the opening paragraph. The only important thing is what they're known for, and in the case of players of this sport, it's where they've played.

By the way, instead of using a full link to a subject, you should consider linking like this [[Jonathan de Guzmán]] if you want this talk page to be associated with the subject (when you look at the "what links here") or like this [[:Jonathan de Guzmán]], with the colon, if you don't. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:05, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

You'll see that I have fixed that article before. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:09, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

That still barely makes sense, as a Scandinavian, I was well aware of Aron Jóhannsson, Mikkel Diskerud and previously mentioned Martin Mutumba, many years before they got their US passports. These rules creates more confusion than anything. You mention where they played. Lets use Diskerud as an example, He has never lived in the US. Born, raised and plays his trade in Norway. A few times a year he plays with the US national team. The same thing with Green. I fully understand this is not always straight forward, but calling guys like Diskerud and Green "American Soccer Players", well.....it is not really true.

Hence the "Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies" you provided:

1.In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable.

The answers to all these are Germany. He has never been a US resident, and as a Bayern Munich II player, he was notable way before he played his 2 senior US national team games.

You do not have to agree with me, but I hope you see my point. All The Best64.203.182.106 (talk) 19:22, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

You might want to take a look at the archives of talk:Mesut Özil (Talk:Mesut Özil/Archive 1 and Talk:Mesut Özil/Archive 2) and similar where this was discussed at length. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:43, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Yup, that is lenghty :-) Still Özil, competes internationally for the nation where he was born and raised. But, I will drop this now :-)

(When you have time, look through the Irish and Northern Irish national teams, about 25% - 35% of their players are playing for their parents, and many times their grand parents nation of birth) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.203.182.106 (talk) 20:07, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

But after the last WC, many Turkish nationalists tried to add "Turkish" to Özil's article. That's when I was made aware of the guidelines and consensus in the football project. I will follow-up on that national team. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:13, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Honours

How can he have won the Bundesliga and associated trophies with Bayern when he hasn't made his first team debut? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.124.213.58 (talk) 03:10, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

He can't. He played one match in a Champions League fixture. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:44, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Toulon Tournament

I noticed his U-21 stats have been updated with apps and goals from the Toulon Tournament. Question: do they count? This is a non-FIFA-sanctioned event with mixed age groups. Seems like you could go either way. Mosmof (talk) 19:02, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Youngest player to score at a world cup since Messi is misleading.

It's stated multiple times in the article and Messi himself is not even the youngest scorer in the competition. Plenty of young lads get goals and this is not noteworthy, at least in the way it is written. It's not a record of any sorts. Needs to be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.174.110.246 (talk) 17:11, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

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