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Alleged

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Should this article exist right now? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:16, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, per WP:PERP, I thought I'd ask. I think a few days ago there was no confession or an alleged confession. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 08:45, 20 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi cymru.lass. Even if it is about the crime, it would still have to mention the man.
My view is still: If he confessed, well, okay, but just slightly okay because it is an allegation and there is just one private confession, possibly under duress, possibly coerced, possibly fiction. If this guy ends up in court and it turns out he was framed, then Wikipedia really did harm.
I started the Larry Nassar article when only 20 women had come forward, and that was speedy delete. Sure, he hadn't confessed, but I'd take 20 women pointing at Nassar over a bunch of US cops in 2018, considering what they've been up to across the country. That said, sure, the confession is likely real.
As for ONEEVENT, obviously that doesn't apply.
I like your open rename "Juan David Ortiz --> ?" That was a good idea. I've seen many an RfC end with the need for another because a name change was needed but the suggested name was unsuitable.
Best, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 18:47, 20 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 19 September 2018

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (non-admin closure) IffyChat -- 19:18, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]



Juan David Ortiz → ? – The crime is notable; the man is not. See WP:CRIMINAL. I'm proposing we move this article to something like "Laredo killings" (or a better name). cymru.lass (talkcontribs) 19:26, 19 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm striking my comment as I'm not even sure this article should exist right now. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 19:25, 20 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Mass murderers tend to be redirected to the event article because the killings are one big event. Serial killers have their own article because the killings are multiple events. We can't just make up rules here, would you suggest moving Ted Bundy to Bundy killings? We'd have to move every serial article to some made up title if this case succeeds, we can't pick and choose. GuzzyG (talk) 13:47, 23 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

About the date on which Juan David Ortiz was arrested

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At the time of this writing, this article lists Juan David Ortiz's "Date apprehended" as September 16, 2018. I would like to contest that "Date apprehended", because, as far as I can tell, going by several sources that I have seen, Juan David Ortiz was arrested September 15, 2018, not September 16, 2018.

For example, check out this source, from The Guardian. From the link in question: "Juan David Ortiz was arrested on Saturday after he was found hiding in a truck in a hotel parking lot in Laredo." The source is dated "Sun 16 Sep 2018" which I assume stands for "Sunday 16 September 2018". So if September 16, 2018 was a Sunday, September 15, 2018 would be a Saturday. Here are several other sources that say that he was arrested on a Saturday: From The Seattle Times: "Ortiz, a 10-year Border Patrol veteran, was arrested early Saturday after the fifth woman escaped and found a state trooper". And that source was originally published September 15, 2018. From abc15: "LAREDO, TX - A U.S. Border Patrol agent suspected of killing four women was arrested early Saturday after a fifth woman who had been abducted managed to escape from him and notify authorities, law enforcement officials said, describing the agent as a "serial killer."

Juan David Ortiz, an intel supervisor for the Border Patrol, fled from state troopers and was found hiding in a truck in a hotel parking lot in Laredo at around 2 a.m. Saturday, Webb County Sheriff Martin Cuellar said at a news conference in the border city about 145 miles (235 kilometers) southwest of San Antonio." From abc30: "LAREDO, Texas -- A U.S. Border Patrol agent was arrested early Saturday on the suspicion that he killed four prostitutes and abducted a fifth, who escaped.

The agent, Juan David Ortiz, was captured after a woman whom he tried to abduct escaped, Webb County District Attorney Isidro Alaniz said at a news conference. Sheriff Martin Cuellar said Ortiz fled from state troopers and was found hiding in the parking lot of a hotel in Laredo, a border city about 145 miles (235 kilometers) southwest of San Antonio." And that source is dated Saturday, September 15, 2018. From The New York Times: "ALBUQUERQUE — A United States Border Patrol agent was arrested in South Texas on Saturday in connection to a calculated killing spree that left four people dead in recent weeks around the city of Laredo, the authorities said.

Webb County Sheriff Martin Cuellar said police officers arrested the agent, Juan David Ortiz, early on Saturday morning after a woman who claimed she had been abducted by Mr. Ortiz escaped half-clothed and sought help at a gas station in Laredo." That source is dated Sept. 15, 2018. Here is another source, dated September 15, 2018, from CBS NEWS. From the link in question: "A U.S. Border Patrol agent suspected of killing four women was arrested early Saturday after a fifth woman who had been abducted managed to escape from him and notify authorities, law enforcement officials said, describing the agent as a "serial killer."

Juan David Ortiz, an intel supervisor for the Border Patrol, fled from state troopers and was found hiding in a truck in a hotel parking lot in Laredo at around 2 a.m. Saturday, Webb County Sheriff Martin Cuellar said at a news conference in the border city about 145 miles southwest of San Antonio."

Since I have found several sources that indicate that he was arrested September 15, 2018, I would like to contest the September 16, 2018 "Date apprehended". I would like to discuss it with other editors and get a concensus regarding the "Date apprehended". Heart of Destruction (talk) 18:26, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is "serial killer" the proper term?

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At the time of this writing, the serial killer-article says "A serial killer is typically a person who murders three or more people,[1] usually in service of abnormal psychological gratification, with the murders taking place over more than a month and including a significant period of time between them.". According to this article (at the time of this writing), Juan David Ortiz is suspected of four murders committed over a period of about twelve days (September 3, 2018–September 15, 2018). Isn't that too short a period for the "serial killer"-description? Heart of Destruction (talk) 13:13, 11 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I think it is proper to consider Ortiz a serial killer vs. a mass murderer or spree killer or some other term for two reasons: (1) Ortiz's victims were killed in seperate events with usually a couple days in between them, (2) it has not rulled out yet that Ortiz may have had additional victims. As the Samuel Little case shows details of additional victims may not surface for years if not decades. Wikipedia of course does not rely on assumptions, so I feel the term "suspected serial killer" is the best to describe Ortiz at the moment. It is also the term most widely used in the coverage, so there is that WP:COMMONNAME aspect as well. Inter&anthro (talk) 16:03, 11 February 2019 (UTC) Just a couple days is not a significant period of time and as for the possible additional victims he has not been connected to any more so that would only be a suspected serial killer. So for now he should be called both a spree killer and suspected serial killer.--2601:206:301:4A90:EE9A:24DC:889A:3C52 (talk) 20:33, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]