Talk:Jowett Bradford

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Jowett Bradford or just Bradford?

Is there any documentary evidence that this vehicle was called the Jowett Bradford? Two of the sources stated identify the vehicle simply as a Bradford, and one of these has separate entries for "Jowett" and "Bradford". Photographs of the badge above the radiator grille show the badge saying "Bradford" rather than "Jowett".

It is documented that Bradfords were built by Jowett, but I do not know if it is documented that they were sold under the Jowett name. After all, Bedfords were made by Vauxhall, but were never called Vauxhall Bedfords (although, unless I'm mistaken, the first Bedfords were called Chevrolet Bedfords).

Can a source be found to show that these were marketed and sold as Jowett Bradfords and not just Bradfords? If not, or if a source can be found that unequivocally states that they were not marketed or sold as Jowett Bradfords, should we not move the article to "Bradford (vehicle)" or some similar title?

Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 12:42, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Very obviously, Jowett's own materials refer to them as "Bradford" or "Bradford by Jowett", but never as "Jowett Bradford". In that sense, "Jowett Bradford" is indeed wrong. However, as Eddaido kept edit-warring, removing the mention of Jowett or claiming that they weren't identified as Jowetts is wrong and misleading. Most Jowetts were badged as the "Jowett Jalopy", the van was instead "Bradford by Jowett".

The Bradford was a van. The Jowett was (at least trying to with the 4 cylinder Javelin and Jupiter) sell itself as a sports car. Shared branding with a van maker, and arguably "The North", didn't help this. The maker was clearly identified as Jowett, but despite the mechanical similarities they didn't want to emphasise those. In similar vein, Ford also produced a Cortina pickup. Yet this was never labelled as the Cortina, but the "P100", an invented name created solely to avoid tarring the Cortina brand with utility. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:53, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

At the risk of sounding like a lunatic, I see his point. From what you describe, the Bradford wasn't so much a model as a downscale brand, like Plymouth for Chrysler or Pontiac for Oakland, and should probably be treated as such. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 20:03, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Xoloz (talk) 01:48, 13 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Jowett Bradford → Bradford (vehicle) – The current title, Jowett Bradford, would be correct according to WP:WPAC if "Jowett" were the make/marque/brand and "Bradford" were a model name. However, there are three indications that the make/marque/brand is actually "Bradford" and not "Jowett":

The title of the road test by The Motor cited as a reference for the article is "The Bradford Utility de-luxe"; road test articles usually follow the same "<make/marque/brand> <model>" naming convention as our articles.
The Complete Catalogue of British Cars 1895 - 1975 by Culshaw and Horrobin has separate entries for "Jowett" and "Bradford", indicating that the two are separate brands and that "Bradford" is not just a name for a model of Jowett.
The badge at the front of the vehicle's bonnet says "Bradford" in large letters and "by Jowett" in relatively fine print. This is the least compelling argument, as Ford Mustangs have been badged "Mustang" on the bonnet and Chevrolet Novas have had "Nova by Chevrolet" badges on the trunk

Based on these, I argue that Bradford is actually the make/marque/brand of the vehicle and therefore the title should not include the name "Jowett".

Further, the title "Bradford (vehicle)" is chosen over "Bradford (automobile)" because the Bradford was primarily a van or a pickup and only one model, the Bradford Utility, was a passenger car. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 13:37, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

strong oppose Fortunately Jowett is the marque and maker, as evidenced by them being badged Jowett right on the bonnet nose. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:41, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Also be careful in asserting that the Bradford Utility was a passenger car. Passenger cars had a significant legal definition at this time involving purchase tax. There were many reasons to build and sell something that was not (legally) a passenger car, no matter what it looked like. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:45, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

How, therefore, do you explain both The Motor and Culshaw & Horrobin treating Bradford as a separate make/marque/brand as detailed above? Apart from the badge, which can be read as "Bradford" from several feet away but only reveals "Jowett" under close scrutiny, what documentary evidence do you have that "Bradford" is not a different brand from the Jowett concern, like "Plymouth" from Chrysler or "Marquette" from the Buick division of General Motors?

It is difficult to understand how an estate car with glazed windows and rear seats would not be considered a passenger car, especially since no reference was made to it being a taxi cab, but if the Utility did not meet the legal definition of a "passenger car" then that is even more reason to refer to it as a "vehicle" instead of as an "automobile", and strenghtens, rather than weakens, that argument.

Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 14:01, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Jowett's own slogan at this time (from the cover of their sales leaflet) was "4 famous Bradfords, by Jowett of Bradford". Now this is certainly using Bradford as a model, brand, marque or whatever you wish to call it, but the important distinction is that they are not excluding Jowett in any way, it's there right on the cover. For such reason we should keep this, per WP:COMMONNAME as Jowett Bradford. Bradford by Jowett would be possible, but less clear. Bradford (automobile) is just wrong.

As to the Utility with windows, I don't have a price list to hand so can't confirm this as yet, but they sell both of the "glazed vehicles" as either the van (a van with windows, distinct from the van model without windows) or the "Utility". Typical practice for the period and one of them would be sold without rear seats, to qualify as not being a passenger car. Of course there was a roaring trade in installing rear seats afterwards, after which I'm sure everyone notified the revenue and paid the extra purchase tax.

Note also that they always sold the Utility as two distinct models, the Utility and the Utility De Luxe, with extra trim. Both were offered as the "4-light van" for the presumed tax reason, although this is distinguished less in the sales brochure than the De Luxe difference is. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:27, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a Bradford dealer selling them as "Bradford by Jowett" [1]

This [2] will save me scanning my sales leaflet. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:53, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

strong oppose A couple more contemporary mentions of the Jowett Bradford here [3] and here [4]. Mighty Antar (talk) 22:29, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose WP:NATURALDIS, the manufacturer appears to be Jowett per the aboves, whatever the brand is, so is an acceptable disambiguatory term. -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 06:24, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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