Talk:Jovan Rašković/Archive 1

Archive 1

Dates

Does anyone know the actual birthdate and death for Jovan Raskovic.--AI 11:05, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Jovam Rašković is also Croatian Psychiatrist, he work in Croatia... --83.131.11.11 20:09, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Role in SANU Memorandum and 1980's Serbian politics

The page doesn't mention Rašković's involvement in writing the SANU Memorandum of 1986. Some sources claim that he co-authored the memorandum, but I cannot find satisfactory confirmation of that. The sources that make that claim (such as mag.org/page14.htm) and the weaker claim that the memorandum was being reviewed in his Primošten house (freedom mag. org/ english/1993-may/page02.htm) seem highly biased and unreliable. On the other hand, this book doesn't mention Rašković as being part of the memorandum committee. [1] Although the objectivity of a book that openly vindicates the Memorandum is highly questionable, I see no reason for its authors to omit Rašković's name.

Maybe the wikipedia page should at least mention that Rašković maintained ties with Dobrica Ćosić and other prominent Serbian academics in the 1980's, some of whom were involved in the Memorandum. Rašković's 1990 involvement in politics was a result of these connections, not an accident. 83.131.72.99 16:39, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Ustashe pogrom

Someone needs to clarify about which Ustashe pogrom article is talking about. Knin was also in italian occupational zone and Ustashe were not allowed to enter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.92.194.141 (talk) 08:03, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Jovan Rašković mother is Croat and father was part of the NDH

Unfortunately, sources say so not me. Croatian historian Roksandić Drago[2], page 99, ("Raškoviću je majka bila Hrvatica...Raskovic's mother was Croatian,...Otac mu je bio sudac Pavelićevog suda, dakle, davao je legalnost ustaškoj državi...His father was a judge of Pavelic's court, so he gave legality to the Ustasha state)[3], we have and this source, Plevnik Danko[4], 1994, [5] page 4, ("Rašković je bio psihijatar s jakim živcima, upravo onakvim kakve je imao njegov otac koji je kao Srbin bio sudac u Nezavisnoj Državi Hrvatskoj...Raskovic was a psychiatrist with strong nerves, just like his father, who as a Serb was a judge in the Independent State of Croatia.) [6]. These are quality sources that must be respected. If there are some problems here there are Wikipedia options which can be used, simple WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT is not a solution. Mikola22 (talk) 06:04, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Agree with @Mikola22: This is a reliable source, and the author himself (Roksandic) is a Croatian Serb, professor emeritus of modern history who researched history of Serbs in Croatia and wrote a book about it. Any sources that say the opposite? Ponor (talk) 10:56, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

@Ponor: I have not found sources which say opposite. Otherwise source of Roksandic was publish in Beograd, (Narodna biblioteka Srbije..National Library of Serbia). Mikola22 (talk) 14:37, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Might be better to take this to RSn, and let a wider audience judge.Slatersteven (talk) 14:39, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

This is really a minor point, it's about his parents and not him. The source itself, as Mikola22 says, was published and peer-reviewed in Serbia, I'd think someone would complain were the claim not true. My bigger concern is that this biography has no mention of Raskovic's manipulative agenda in the 1990s (also practiced by another psychiatrist he inspired, Radovan Karadžić). Check this UN report(pdf) (also here at archive.org) "Just as political opponents of the regime were demonized, the attributes of Serbs were idealized. Jovan Raskovic, who was to become a founder of Croatia's Serbian Democratic Party (SDSC), for example, wrote that «the Serbs are ... the only ones with an instinct for leadership and they must exercise it over the other peoples of Yugoslavia. They must dominate them.» Croats, according to Raskovic, «are castrated and afraid of everything. They cannot exercise any authority. It is up to the Serbs to guide them.» On the other hand, «Muslims have anal-erotic personalities and are the sort who love to amass riches.» Raskovic, a psychiatrist, helped to organize the referendum on political autonomy for the Krajina Serbs in Croatia. The event led to an armed confrontation between Croats and Croatian Serbs. Shortly before he died, Raskovic stated on Belgrade television that he felt responsible for having «lit the fuse of Serbian nationalism». There has been much speculation that Radovan Karadzic, also a psychiatrist, may have been influenced by Raskovic's theories of Serb superiority. In May 1990, when Karadzic was asked if he had a role-model or mentor, he responded, «above all, Jovan Raskovic»." Ponor (talk) 15:23, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Just wanted to ping @Filipjako: so they are aware of this talk under way and we should wait until they reply before any changes are made for the sake of fairness and equal opportunity to speak. OyMosby (talk) 16:55, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

That is why it would be best to get fresh (uninvolved) eyers on this.Slatersteven (talk) 17:06, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

• Ponor - do not spam the TP. It's no secret that his mother was Croatian, so were the mothers of Arsen Dedić and Dražen Petrović, all notable Serbs of Croatia or Croats of Serb origin. Take your source to be evaluated and try to find a better wording, that should not be a big problem. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 17:20, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

• This is quite some accusation, Sadko. Lack of real arguments? As I said, what his parents were does not determine who he was, so their (like everyone else's) nationality is a minor point. (See, I'm in favor of Mikola22's edits, but would not insist on them if Roksandic is not to be trusted.) Put this in the article yourself if the fact is not controversial and end Filipjako's edit warring. Mind if I add JR's own words "that he felt responsible for having «lit the fuse of Serbian nationalism»" as well, or does that need further discussion? How about his racist views? Ponor (talk) 17:54, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

• For everyone who may have limited knowledge about the person or the topic in question, I will make this analogy to start with: If there was an article about a Jewish person and claims were made about this person's father being a judge during the Nazi German regime, which convicted a lot of Jews, would you regard it as an issue that would need to be properly considered before being published? This is on the same level, with the difference being that it's about a Serb instead of a Jew and about the Ustashe regime instead of the Nazi German regime. In such a case, sourcing it properly is necessary in order to make it trustworthy. Based on the source, it is not. Not essentially because it's a Croatian wartime source, from a time when propaganda spread like an epidemic from all sides, but because the source is an article from a newspaper that doesn't contain any references. Also, this Wikipedia article is already stating that he fled to the town of Kistanje from the Ustashe as a kid (which is not provided with a source but can easily be done as I've found an existing source that's trustworthy and reliable) and that the Ustashe were responsible for the deaths of his relatives, creating a contradiction. The contributor himself has earlier talked about "a quality source coming from a historian (Roksandić)", but this is not quite true. The historian himself referred to a news article in his paper (written by Plevnik, so we don't have two separate sources as Mikola22 presents it), meaning that the information was not discovered by the historian himself who made a "hearsay" reference. As for the information itself, it originally derives from a Croatian wartime news article (Novi List), written by Plevnik, where it's just one of many allegations listed about the person in question without referring to a reliable source (naturally, because most news articles don't provide sources). Mikola22 himself provided a separate source from the same author (Plevnik), again without any references in the text. Should allegations be recognized as trustworthy information just because it's made by "a trustworthy person" (according to the contributor)? My firm opinion is no, especially in cases like these when trustworthy sources are essential. Are news articles trustworthy sources in cases like these? No. Also, the contribution itself is bad as the sentence starts with "Father", a countable noun that needs an article or similar at the beginning of the sentence, and the contributor himself is apparently not even fit to make the simplest contributions on English Wikipedia. I also insist that someone authorized keep an eye on the contributor, with regard to the editing history, as there's a lot of engagement on several controversial topics regarding Serbs, e.g., the Jasenovac death camp from WW2. Filipjako (talk) 19:56, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

• First, my apologies. For some reason I thought this was about the mother and the father part was factually correct. His father was indeed a lawyer at Knin and may have worked there in early months of the puppet fascist state. But no, that did not mean he was supporting the regime, for after all they were forced to flee (not sure when). IDK why Plevnk wrote that; he for sure wasn't the 1990s regime journalist. And all this is pretty much irrelevant; JR would not have a WP article were it not for his role in early 1990s (for which he expressed remorse in a few later interviews - cf. UN report, Weine's book). Let's write about that. OK, Mikola22? Ponor (talk) 20:32, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

• I support you, find quality sources and that's it. I found a couple of Croatian sources, but most of them talk about his political activities and I don't know how interesting this is for the article, also article already say something about it. Mikola22 (talk) 20:58, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

• Just found a reference from a Serbian news page (Novosti) from 2007 about an interview with JR, where there are several statements allegedly made by JR that give a totally opposite view of what the contributor has published. There are too many examples in the interview for me to quote, but can find it here and make your own judging about the source: [7] Filipjako (talk) 22:02, 6 March 2021 (UTC)