Talk:Josephine Butler/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Describing Millicent Fawcett

@SchroCat: - Hi - you reverted my edit; interested to understand why you consider intellectual a broader term than campaigner. To me, common usage of intellectual would imply academic, not a person active "in the street" (or parliament), writing popular material etc. I think it is far too narrow a description to refer to Millicent Fawcett as an "intellectual" - she was many things - writer, organiser, political activist, reformer, movement leader. There are few people past or present who led movements who would be considered intellectuals. Many intellectuals inspire movements, but rarely lead them. Leaving aside my personal views, I cannot find any reliable sources that describe Fawcett as an intellectual. There may well be one or two, but the overwhelming body of work about Fawcett does not discuss her as an intellectual. I'm not wedded to the word campaigner, if you have an alternative, please consider. Regards,--Goldsztajn (talk) 21:07, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

FWIW some references, including one which uses intellectual:

Oxford Dictionary of National Biography: "leader" "author"

Millicent Garrett Fawcett and the Meaning of Women's Emancipation, 1886-99 "intellectual leader" "skillful politician"

The Centenary of Josephine Butler: An Interview with Dame Millicent Garrett Fawcett "veteran leader"

Reviewed Work: A Different World for Women "leader"

Perhaps we could agree on "feminist leader" to replace "feminist intellectual"? --Goldsztajn (talk) 23:46, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

OK, I'll go with "feminist leader" too. "campaigner" was far too narrow for me (she was so, so much more than that). Mind you, I think she's more than a "feminist leader" too, but for the sake of a very brief introduction to her, this will do nicely. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:35, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

--Goldsztajn (talk) 09:55, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Trafficking was not a term used at the time, the definition is incorrect

Human trafficking was not a term used during Butler's time. Applying a modern legal definition to an advocate is beyond imprecise and completely inaccurate. Further, conflation of "human trafficking" and "slave trade" is incorrect. The conflation of those terms was an intentional decision why white advocates to co-opt abolitionist movement spaces to apply to the sex trade, specifically to white women in the sex trades. 2601:14D:4D80:A180:5435:48BD:204D:96E2 (talk) 21:08, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. The term is one used by the reliable sources used - including works such as The Politics of Trafficking: The First International Movement to Combat the Sexual Exploitation of Women. This is how WP works - by taking the very best sources and displaying their information. It is not a place to right great wrongs, no matter how strongly felt those beliefs are held (and I have a certain sympathy for your viewpoint here). If you have something that says that Butler wasn't involved in the battle to stop human trafficking, then let's see it - we can add it to the article as a counterpoint, but without that, we have to reflect what the sources say. Thanks again for coming here, and I'd welcome any further input you have. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 21:27, 8 March 2023 (UTC)