Talk:Johnny Weir/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: ErnestKrause (talk · contribs) 22:06, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes I'll try to do this sometime before the next week-end is over. Nice going at the recent FAC also. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:06, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Ernest. You might want to look at the discussion about Weir's appearance on Dancing with the Stars at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Figure Skating#Johnny Weir GAN. I'm interesting in hearing your opinion. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:35, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Starting review comments:

(1) Lead section with yesterday's expansions looks improved. It might look even better with paragraph divided into 2 paragraphs, which would give the article a 4 paragraph lead section.

Done. I also did some copyediting to what was added.

(1.1) Early life section could have a better paragraph break somewhere; its currently one very large paragraph and one very short paragraph. It could be adjusted.

Done.

(2) The mention of Tarasova and of Sasha Cohen is interesting and it might be nice to see an image added to the Weir article of the one or the other with a good caption.

Done, found an image of them both together!

(3) Weir keeps a fairly prominent identity in the LGBT community and this should be covered in Personal life section, and possibly in other places. He is very open about his gender identity.

True dat. However, this is clear throughout the bio, in many sections. For example, there's content about his treatment by U.S. Figure Skating, the press, and other skaters about his identity, and there's information about his coming out and marriage, and other LGBTQ issues in the second paragraph of the 2010–2013 subsection. Also, the first paragraph in the Broadcasting career section has content about it. I'm not sure that it's appropriate to mention it again, since that might be WP:UNDUE.

(4) Regarding the image of him in his boxer shorts, I guess I'm not sure what to place this image as being. It could be seen as something like male editors editing the articles of their favorite Hollywood actresses and then adding swimsuit images for no special reason. Is Weir in boxer shorts the best choice for this article going to GAN?

The caption states that it was taken while Weir was Grand Marshall at the L.A. Pride Parade in 2011. There are two issues here: the few free images of Weir avaiable and his wardrobe choices. I've tried to add as many images I could find. I could bump up the image count by adding images of others who are mentioned in the bio, but I personally don't like to that too much because this bio is about Weir, not them.

If you are strongly for keeping the parade photo then maybe make it larger to distinguish it from the other 'skating' images. He takes his gender identity very seriously and this might be used to make it central to the article. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:20, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree that this is necessary. Yes I agree that Weir's gender identity is important, since his openness is one of the reasons figure skating is now more open and diverse, but I think that the current version makes that very clear. Weir's skating and broadcasting careers is what should be central to this article, and it is. Again, the problem is that the paucity of free images of him. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:17, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

(5) This is the direct link to msnbc coverage of the Olympics with the full interview of Tara about the Kamila doping issue; you can watch and decide on its use here: [1]. Weir is so outspoken in this NBC video that I think something like a quote from this interview about the issue should be added in this article.

Ok, this issue also came up in the Tara Lipinski FAC, so I'll respond the same way here: if we were to add every opinion Weir has, this would be a very long bio. I mean, he's been outspoken about a lot of things, but I don't think it's appropriate to include everything he's said about every topic. There is a discussion about how Weir, Lipinski, and Terry Gannon handled calling Valieva's free skate in the 2022 Olympics in the 2nd-to-last paragraph in the Broadcasting section because it had bearing on how they call the sport. Also, your link is an interview with Lipinski, not with Weir.

There is another one with Weir at an NBC interview where he agrees with Tara, possibly in even stronger terms. Johnny does speak in the link which I just provided above, though you have to wait for Tara to finish her opening comment. I think he starts with his words of condemning it 'with every ounce of my fiber...' . ErnestKrause (talk) 22:20, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

But you haven't responded to my objection that it's not necessary, which I won't repeat. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:19, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

(6) You already have a fairly long section for Skating technique, and I'm not sure how much is gained by having the long quote imaged box added as well. Maybe the length of this long quote could be shorten; maybe an image of its author might be useful.

Yes, it's long, but I'd like to keep the quote, please. I think it's a good synopsis of Weir's influence on the sport of figure skating and of American culture in general. I also don't think that summarizing it would do it justice.

(7) Research and citations in this article are fairly well done. I'll look again, though it looks fairly good.

The is so much research in this article that some selective trims seem to be called for; see below. The number of details is becoming a little over the top as the article approaches 210Kb in size. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:20, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

That should get things started. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:49, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, your feedback is valuable; I appreciate it. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:17, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Second part of review

I'm noticing that the article is really quite long in terms of it moving towards a GAN and possibly towards a FAC like Tara. Tara is under 100Kb in size and Weir here is over 200Kb. That actually going to be an issue. There need to be some page splits considered, and in general you have more than enough material to start maki9ng judicious trims to the article. Editors are being a tough time at FAC now for presenting President biographies which go over 100Kb; its going to be much tougher for someone like Weir. The article currently takes over 40 minutes to read which is kind of on the long side as well. Can you start some trims, or mention which areas you might target. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:20, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

"Someone like Weir"? Yes it's true that Weir isn't as influential as U.S. presidents or other political leaders, he's an important, ground-breaking athlete in his sport. I can't really see where splits are warranted, other than the "Broadcasting career" section. I summarized the sources and reporting that are out there about him, just as we're supposed to do. I would maintain that the reason Lipinski's article is shorter is because there aren't as many sources out there. Figure skating articles and bios tend to be shorter because they represent a significant content gap in Wikipedia and in the popular press, at least in the U.S. Yuzuru Hanyu is almost 70,000 characters; the team working on it and its ancilliaries state the reason for its length is that there's so much published about him. I suspect that if there were more sources out there about Lipinski that her article would reflect that. The reason most figure skater bios aren't as long as Hanyu's and Weir's is because no editors have dedicated themselves to improving them; consequently, few skater bios are as comprehensive as Hanyu's and Weir's. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 05:50, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm thinking that there at least five categories to select from for possible splits: Wier's legacy, Weir's Olympic seasons, Weir's ice shows, career achievements, and programs/publications. See if any of these work for possible splits of the article. "Someone like Weir", who is a leader in his community and has significant name recognition, still is not generally considered to culturally stand at the level of US Preseidents and other cultural figures of high visibility. I'm looking forward to hearing more about possible page splits; over 200Kb is just too large for a Wikipedia biography. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:38, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

@ErnestKrause, I have now created a new article, Skating technique and influence of Johnny Weir, and have replaced the content in the appropriate section with a summary. This article is now at 61789 characters. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:31, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

That looks fairly deft to me. Henni147 Pinging Henni in case she can take a quick look to comment on the article length concerns and you overnight page split for the new article on Weir. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:41, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan and ErnestKrause: I took a quick look at Weir's article. First of all, his career summary is far too detailed. I am currently trimming down Hanyu's career summary, targetting 300–400 words per season as the general threshold and 500 words as the absolute maximum (for his 15/16 and 16/17 season where he won multiple major events and set a series of world records). My goal is to shorten his biography to 45–50 kB readable prose, so that there is some buffer space for his life summary over the next decades.

Important note regarding article length: what matters in the first place is the readable prose size of the page, not the total bytes. It is natural that an article citing 30 print sources is far smaller in total byte size than an article that cites 300 online sources with 300 archive urls. They blow up the page exponentially, but that is still within the limits. Hanyu's biography is currently at 58 kB readable prose, Weir's at 60 kB. Both sizes are borderline acceptable according to Wiki's thresholds, but in case of living people we always have to calculate a buffer space of at least 10–15 kB for future additions. Weir's article shouldn't be longer than 40–45 kB of readable prose.

Biographies and their sub-articles must satisfy the key criterion of notability. Is the written content encyclopedically relevant enough for a reader who views the page in 100 years? In case of Hanyu's sub-articles these are the following aspects:

Extended content

Olympic seasons: Hanyu is a two-time Olympic champion with multiple records, firsts, and milestones achieved in those seasons. An article like this would only be justified for other multiple Olympic champions like Virtue/Moir, Plushenko, Sonja Henie, Katarina Witt etc. Career achievements: Hanyu has become the first male single skater to complete the career Super Slam, has set the most world records among single skaters in the IJS era, and has achieved countless firsts, milestones, and perfect scores. A similar article would be suitable for Virtue/Moir or Papadakis/Cizeron. Ice show productions: Hanyu has become the first skater to produce and direct a solo ice show and fill a stadium with 55,000 seats capacity on his own, elevating figure skating as a performing art form to the level of major pop rock concerts, and he is expected to produce more than 30 different shows in the course of his pro career. This justifies a separate page. Programs and publications: Hanyu's programs gained notability through their broad media coverage, DVD/Blu-ray releases, and the special concert Music with Wings where 23 of his programs were played by an orchestra of 100 musicians in Tokyo. Among his publications are his autobiography series as well as multiple skating compilations and photobooks with him as a co-author, which regularly topped the Amazon bestseller rankings in Japan. Figure skating legacy: Hanyu is regarded by the IOC, Marca, Time, and IFS as the most influential figure skater of the 21st century. His long list of contributions to skating, including technical innovations and sports philosophy, and his worldwide impact justify an article about his legacy.

"The reason most figure skater bios aren't as long as Hanyu's and Weir's is because no editors have dedicated themselves to improving them;" I disagree here. If there was a very dedicated fan of Loena Hendrickx or Roman Sadovsky, blowing up their articles to 60 kB readable prose, I would definitely argue that they are too long. Wikipedia is not a news repository where every information can be included. Hanyu's article series has this many pages because he has made an insane amount of encyclopedically notable contributions to figure skating with worldwide impact. The skater who should have a comparable Wiki compendium to Hanyu is Sonja Henie – three-time Olympic and ten-time World champion and Hollywood star who has groundbreakingly changed competitive and professional skating in her time like Hanyu is doing in the 21st century. They are the two heavyweights of the sport in terms of achievements, impact, and worldwide stardom, which should be reflected in the depth of their articles.

Back to this GA review: I agree that a legacy sub-article is suitable for Weir, since his influence in the sport is notable enough. I will take a more detailed look at Weir's biography later. Henni147 (talk) 11:08, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

@Henni147, you know that I respect you and your accomplishments with the Hanyu articles, but I respectfully disagree about length. If you look at the Biography (sports and games) articles - FA quality WP 1.0 Server list, [2] you'll see that the first six entries are all over 50 kB (Babe Ruth's has almost 90 kB) and have an outrageous level of detail in their career summaries. I agree that for Hanyu's articles, it's a good goal to decrease their lengths, but it's not customary for bios about athletes. BTW, one of my New Year's resolutions for 2023 is to improve Henie's bio because I agree that she's revolutionary and I think it'd be awfully fun learning more about her. I would argue that Weir is revolutionary as well; he was one of the skaters who paved the way for the openness and acceptance that current LGBTQ skaters enjoy. At any rate, other than creating the forked article as Ernest requested, I'm not going to make any morer substantial cuts, even if it means that this bio fails this GAN.

Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:47, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Yes, I recognized the above-average length of some athletes' biographies too. The article of Babe Ruth was promoted to FA class in 2014; it would be interesting to know if it met today's review standards as well, but I expect that it wouldn't get a pass for FAC anymore. I know from WikiProject Snooker that authors generally strive for more compact player biographies with multiple sub-articles nowadays rather than one long article, which is difficult to maintain and needs longer for loading. However, if you feel that Weir's article is within the limits regarding length and detail, I respect your decision and don't mind if it stays like that.

I fully agree with you that Weir's influence in figure skating deserves its own article, and I would be willing to help out with GA/FA reviews, when the page has been completed. And I'm also happy that you plan to tackle Henie's article; I was considering to work on it myself when finished with Hanyu's series, but I will probably go for the article about professional figure skating first, which is long overdue. Henni147 (talk) 09:07, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Christine, it looks like Henni and myself are encouraging the same thing, in order to give you the best chances for moving this article forwards maybe eventually towards FAC like you did for Tara. If you want to preserve your exact writing then you can try doing another page split for any of the other three options which Henni has suggested and that I've listed above. Your previous page split worked well and one more would help the article more. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:15, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

@ErnestKrause: At the moment, the only additional sub-article that would be suitable for Weir, if at all, is a page about his broadcasting career, others may not meet Wikipedia's notability requirements. However, if he produced a major TV show or other encyclopedically crucial project in the future, that would make a great additional sub-page. Henni147 (talk) 09:09, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm working on a fork about Weir's broadcasting career now. I agree, I think that it's as far as we're gonna be able to go. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:15, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

I have finished with the new forked article and have written a summary for this bio, as before. See Broadcasting career of Johnny Weir. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:29, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

That's another good fork, which brings the article down to about 180Kb in total size. Pinging Henni147 for any other comments, and I'll try to do a full read-through of the revised version again before the week-end is over. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:54, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Closing GAN. The article is much improved since the GAN started and the two articles which were split have shortened the article from approaching 210Kb to under 200Kb. ITs worth noting that efforts toward an FAC if undertaken would likely require further cuts and trims to the text. The article is well-written and the research backing it up is in fairly good condition. The new image added is also a plus and the article is passed. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:46, 17 February 2023 (UTC)