Talk:John Lewis (Shawnee leader)

A fact from John Lewis (Shawnee leader) appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 22 October 2021 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Shawnee leader John Lewis (pictured) often wore a "peace medal" given to him by U.S. president Thomas Jefferson?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2021/October. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/John Lewis (Shawnee leader).

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:20, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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John Lewis

... that Shawnee leader John Lewis (pictured) met with U.S. Presidents Thomas Jefferson and James Monroe to promote Shawnee land rights in Ohio? Source: Edmunds, R. David (2017). "A Patriot Defamed: Captain Lewis, Shawnee Chief". In Warren, Stephen (ed.). The Eastern Shawnee Tribe of Oklahoma: Resilience Through Adversity. Norman, Oklahoma: University of Oklahoma Press. pp. 15–42.

Comment: submitting this for DYK on October 5, when Tecumseh will appear as TFA

Created by Kevin1776 (talk). Self-nominated at 02:49, 10 September 2021 (UTC).[reply]

Important article on Shawnee leader finally turning red links on "Captain John Lewis" blue. Highlights why Lewis promoted accommodation with the U.S. – even supporting the Americans in the War of 1812 (and opposing Tecumseh who led Indians fighting for the British) – then advocated westward relocation in the final years of his life. Article is brand new, long, with inline citations, written in a neutral tone, no apparent copyright issues, hook is elaborated on with citations in the article, most images are from well known pre-1850 sources (plus image originating from Flickr whose license issues were sorted out on Commons in 2017). Only the QPQ is missing from a general DYK review point of view.

Regarding the content of the hook: Seems OK. Slight nit is that John Lewis was part of a delegation that met with Jefferson in 1802, the year before Ohio statehood. The hook definitely grabbed my attention so in principle I think it's OK to keep. (Though anyone who reads a lot about U.S. Indian affairs in the 1800s might think... OK, there were a lot of Native American leaders who technically "met with" Presidents, Secretaries of War, etc. as part of large delegations, with varying levels of involvement and ultimately very little "success". Also, "promoting land rights" sounds a little off and I wonder if it's possible to tweak?)

Possible alternative: The sentence within the article that jumps out the most is: "Although Tecumseh is popularly associated with Shawnee resistance to the United States, more Shawnees served in Harrison's army at the Battle of the Thames than alongside Tecumseh."[17] This is also why this article has been proposed for DYK on October 5. So why not call this out more explicitly? (Otherwise, a lot of readers will gloss over and miss the point.) Would it be possible to construct a hook highlighting John Lewis's leadership of Shawnee fighters serving under William Henry Harrison's army...technically fighting against Tecumseh in the War of 1812, etc.?

Other suggestions for the article (beyond DYK): How did Quatawapea get the name John Lewis? And on what basis does Edmunds draw a different conclusion from Sugden re: Lewis's initial support for the Shawnee Prophet?

Anyway was very excited to read this article. I am very new to DYK so technically don't even need the QPQ credit yet myself but was just blown away to see this. Thanks for your hard work in pulling it together. Cielquiparle (talk) 02:28, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comments. I like your idea of a Tecumseh-related hook. Do you want to take a pass at writing it? Kevin1776 (talk) 11:08, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Couple of suggestions below, please go ahead and reject or tweak.

- ALT1: ... that more Shawnee soldiers were led by John Lewis (pictured) serving the United States in the War of 1812 than by Tecumseh who joined with the British?
- ALT2: ... that John Lewis (pictured) led more Shawnee fighting alongside William Henry Harrison's army in the War of 1812 than Tecumseh who joined with the British?

Cielquiparle (talk) 09:15, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Kevin1776? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 00:15, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should avoid saying Lewis "led" the Shawnees in 1812 because it seems the sources are not explicit about his specific actions in battle. The wording is also tricky because most Shawnees remained neutral in the war. So maybe:

- ALT3: ... that John Lewis (pictured) was prominent among the many Shawnees who sided with the United States, and not Tecumseh, in the War of 1812?
- Kevin1776 (talk) 19:51, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Great. ALT3 seems good. Also happy to pass on my QPQ credit to you so that this is good to go from my standpoint. Cielquiparle (talk) 15:22, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Kevin1776 (talk) 21:16, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Kevin1776 and Cielquiparle: Sorry that we blew past the requested date on this one. As long as we're out of time pressure, I've got an ALT hook suggestion: theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 23:17, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ALT4: ... that John Lewis often wore a "peace medal" (pictured) given to him by Thomas Jefferson when they met to discuss Shawnee land rights in Ohio?

I like it. Kevin1776 (talk) 22:14, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

T:DYK/P6