Talk:John Deacon/Archive 1

Archive 1

Read Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living people before editing further

Please kindly familiarise yourself with our policy on biographies of living persons before making any further edits to Wikipedia. I have removed all the edits made to John Deacon containing totally unsourced speculation. Please ensure that you do not add such material into any article in the future, or you will be blocked from editing. Such unsourced speculation can cause exceptionally serious legal problems for Wikimedia and those who contributed it. -- Nick ^t 17:30, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Another collaboration of John Deacon

in 1988, he collaborated in the video "Stutter Rap" from Morris Minor and the Majors

can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAIOzM7SsMo

Andyteleco 19:48, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Retirement From Queen

The suggestion that John retired after the Freddie Mercury Tribute concert in April 1992 is just plain wrong... He continued - to record Made In Heaven and No One But You. And I think he played in the Bejart Ballet concert. What would be a more appropriate wording? Martin Packer (talk) 09:31, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Also Barcelona [Special Edition], which was (re-)recorded in 2012, mentions John Deacon on bass guitar on How Can I Go On.

References

Singer

Is it just me, or is that paragraph really bad? I mean, they wouldn't "play a trick on him" and turn his mic up. That's just stupid. GiantSpider (talk) 16:12, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

They often did turn his microphone up without telling him, to play a trick on him, because he didn't want people to hear his singing voice. You can hear his microphone is turned on on some of the older live performances. The wording could be better. I'll change it. Jessicamadq (talk) 11:36, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

He also sang a lot more than he is giving credit for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rorylyng (talk • contribs) 20:10, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Songs by Deacon

Is there a point in having a "Other songs by Deacon" section? It's incomplete and ultimately pointless. I recommend deleting it. Me too. none of the others have one either! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.95.232 (talk) 19:54, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Better Photo

Come on. Surely we can find a more recent photo of John for the infobox? Even a 1998 image would be an improvement. Queenie ^Talk 20:01, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that. I think he was UGLY since 1978! I mean it! Really! I hate Deacon, but I mus say that he was really beatyfull in the '70's.

That picture is so pixelated it could be of me.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.26.220.132 (talk) 23:52, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

"Masterbuilt" bass in gear article

"Masterbuilt" is a term that Fender affixes to certain instruments made in their custom shop. What Deacon bought predated the custom shop by far and was "just" a stock bass made by Fender between 1954 and 1957, so I changed that. By the way, the "special prototype" Fender bass appears to be a standard Precision Special I, the Kramer Custom also seems to be a regular DMZ-model but I´ll let it stand as I have no proof that he didn´t get special basses from them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jogi68 (talk • contribs) 15:51, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Who Needs You

John did not play lead on Who Needs You, that was Brian, and he confirms it in an interview. John does play rhythm. Not the fills though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.84.5.45 (talk) 08:43, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:John Deacon/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: FunkMonk (talk · contribs) 22:11, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

• What have we here, I'll take this one. FunkMonk (talk) 22:11, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
• "A younger sister, Julie" Not sure if it is too formal, but for some reason, I would like to read "his younger sister, Julie"... The current wording seems a bit overly formal, but that's probably just me.

I think that does scan a bit better, so fixed. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:01, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

• "a reel to reel tape recorder to stream music directly off the radio." I guess the term "stream" is used retroactively here (hardly known as streaming at the time I guess)? Could perhaps have quotation marks?

Streaming as a concept certainly didn't exist back then; what I was trying to do here was avoid repetition of "record" twice in quick succession. I've changed this around. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:01, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

• "from Richard Young, the founding member." Though it might seem obvious, perhaps add "founding member of that band"?

Fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:01, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

• What genre did his first band play?

According to all sources, it was just typical teenage bar-band stuff, no different to thousands of other bands. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:01, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

• There is a bit of overlinking, especially noticeable with Oadby, which is linked in two consecutive sections.

I need to come back to this, but I've fixed the multiple Oadbys for now. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:01, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

• "though the group did not make a lasting impression on them at the time." On him?

Copyedited. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:57, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

• "By this time Queen had already been formed by Freddie Mercury, Brian May, and Roger Taylor, and Deacon even saw them in October 1970, though the group did not make a lasting impression on them at the time." I think this sentence could perhaps be split after Taylor's name, to prevent Deacon being mentioned right after the flow of band members in the same sentence? Also, could perhaps mention the date of Queen's forming here?

I've quickly done a copyedit Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:57, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

• "In late 1970, he briefly formed a band called Deacon" Anything on what they played?

Haven't a clue I'm afraid, the source doesn't mention anything. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:57, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

• You mention three prior bassists, but which of them did he replace?

I've cleared that up, the article had the bassists in chronological order but it wasn't obvious. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:57, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

• "in order to make him "sound more interesting"." Who made this decision?

Don't know I'm afraid, the source doesn't say. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:57, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

• "but it was also credited to the other band members." Why not just say it was co-written with the other band members?

Fixed. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:57, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

• "He also played some guide guitar parts on the album" I guess these were later replaced?

Good question. Possibly, possibly not. Given May was happy to use Deacon's amp and electronic devices, and for him to play some the guitars, it's possible he only recorded anything that was sub-bar. Since they've probably forgotten a 40-year old recording session, we may never know. :-/ Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:57, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

• Could dates be mentioned for each album and song mentioned, for context? For example in the sentence "He later wrote the hit "Another One Bites The Dust". "Later" is very vague.

Don't see why not. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:57, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

• "direction away from classic rock." Is that really how they referred to it themselves?

I've removed "away from classic rock" - just saying they wanted to change musical direction will suffice. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:57, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

• The last part of Career mentions other bands he played with, shouldn't they be mentioned as associated acts in the infobox then?

I've done this, though I'm not convinced it's a definite improvement myself Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:40, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

• "Selected Queen album tracks:" Selected based on what? Why not just list them all? Likewise with "Selected solo efforts:"?

There are too many, so I've just mentioned the ones documented in reliable sources per WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Queen discography can cover this in more depth. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:40, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

• "hit Deacon the hardest out of all the surviving members of Queen." This doesn't seem to be what the source says? As far as I see, it only says "The singer's death in November 1991 has proved a brutal blow to Deacon."

Changed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:40, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

• Who has replaced him after he retired from Queen?

Technically, nobody has, though they have obviously have had touring bassists, who I've dropped in. Neil Fairclough seems to have been round the block a few times with various bands so I think it's worth giving him a redlink. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:37, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

• "The other members have said that he handled most of the band's finances." Why is this in personal life, when it is important to the band's history/career

This is a duplicate of an earlier section, looks like I forgot to trimmed this. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:40, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

• "with the etymology: "I name this" Mention who named this animal?
• "Heteragrion (Odonata : Zygoptera)" I'm sure some or all of these terms could be linked? Also, add "the damselfly genus Heteragrion".

I have to be honest that I haven't got a clue what to do with this - this is more your area of expertise. Can you do something with it? Could we just get rid of the section (it is trivia after all and doesn't really violate the "broad in coverage" part of the GA criteria too much to leave it out). Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:37, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I certainly don't think it warrants an entire section, but it also seems a shame to remove it... If he had a broader legacy or influence section (or even a "see also"), it could be put there. Anywhere else you think it could be placed? FunkMonk (talk) 17:22, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

I've trimmed it down to one sentence and popped it in the relevant timeline of the "history" section. Since it sits in between people talking about his influence in the past, it's probably the best place for it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:42, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

• "He became Queen's fourth bass player in 1971 aged 19 on the strength of his quiet demeanour and electronic skills, particularly the home-made Deacy Amp which guitarist Brian May used to create guitar orchestras throughout Queen's career." Little of this info is present outside the intro (which should not have unique info).

Trimmed and reorganised Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:40, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

• "became the group's best selling single in the US." Only mentioned in intro.

Trimmed. I don't know why we're singling out this song here amongst all the other hits. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:40, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Hi FunkMonk, sorry I've been away for Easter. Several other people have worked on the article since I improved it up to GA, so there may be quite a bit of work to do, but I'll hopefully get on the issues later today. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:40, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

FunkMonk, are you still waiting for the above to be resolved? This review seems to have been abandoned as Ritchie hasn't been around since March 31st, and there haven't been very many edits aside from back-and-forth reverts since you placed this on hold. Snuggums (talk / edits) 18:12, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Oh, Ritchie333's gone? Perhaps a ping will work? FunkMonk (talk) 18:40, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

I have been snowed under with more work than I know what to do with. I've pulled the review for now, and might revisit it when I get time. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:14, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Alright, no rush from my side, if you want to do it at a slow pace, we can do that too. FunkMonk (talk) 12:19, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

@FunkMonk: Right, sorry about the looooooooooong wait (hey, think how Deaky felt every time Brian went into his "Brighton Rock" guitar solo....) I think I've addressed more or less everything one way or another, but some things (very specifically the insect species) need further work. Can you take another look? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:37, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Ah, that was a quick fix after all! I think it looks well now, the bug sits better where you moved it... So I'll pass. FunkMonk (talk) 17:48, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Cool, cheers! We got there in the end :-) Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:53, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

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Adjective order

I've reverted the attempt by a couple of editors to enforce the wording "English retired musician" on the grounds that Deacon has not retired from being English, but adjective order does not follow formal logic. It has its own rules. "A big red house" sounds natural and "a red big house" does not, because English speakers subconsciously put different kinds of adjectives in a particular order, which has been studied by linguists - see Adjective#Order. "English retired musician" sounds awkward, and "retired English musician" sounds natural, because "retired" falls under either observation or age, which comes before origin. --Nicknack009 (talk) 14:59, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

He's not retired from being an English musician, he's a retired musician who is English. That sounds more natural to me, and clearly to the others who keep changing it back. Articles such as Diego Maradona and Alessandro del Piero and Steffi Graf all place the nationality before the fact that they are retired. ... discospinster _talk 15:15, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Your reply does not address my points. The fact that other articles are also wrong is irrelevant. I can only repeat: adjective order has its own rules and does not follow formal logic. Your attempts to enforce formal logic on it are pedantry. Life is too short to get involved in an edit war over this, but your warning comment has no authority and I will remove it. --Nicknack009 (talk) 21:13, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Please point to a source stating otherwise. Simply making a statement that adjective order does not follow formal logic doesn't cut it. His occupation is "retired musician", and his nationality is English.... discospinster _talk 23:08, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

You see above, where I asked you to "see Adjective#Order"? That was a source stating otherwise. Do you even read what I've written? --Nicknack009 (talk) 06:30, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

My own preference for the order is "retired English musician", but not only for the reasons suggested above. I rather feel that it is the common and natural form used by most British people. The spoken "English retired musician" doesn't seem to roll off the tongue as easily as "retired English musician". Yes, "formal logic" might be laid down, and in places other than WP such as The British Council. Despite that, the "rules" are not rigid because they are invariably accompanied by the statement that the order may be overridden. Unlike people whose first language is more formally structured, native English speakers (as opposed to English native speakers? Sorry about that!) are well able to understand the meaning of a term even though the words are in a different sequence. The rules accept that they are about a spoken language as well as a written one; 'bad big wolf' vs. 'big bad wolf' being an example given.

Having said that, I don't understand the confusion with "retired English musician". Is it likely to mean the person was a musician who is retired from being English, suggesting that he might now be some other nationality? Surely not.

As well as the 'nationality first' precedents mentioned (Diego Maradona etc), there are as many (if not more) for the nationality being secondary, such as List of retired Australian cyclone names and List of retired Atlantic hurricane names (along with many other similar articles), as well as Terry Ryan (ice hockey, born 1952), Dee Ann McWilliams, and Junior Bridgeman.

With no firm precedent or rule either way, it seems that the original author's version should be able to stand as it is, and any preference for another order of words be accepted as inappropriate cause for changes. If that - or a consensus - seems impossible, the entire phrase might be rewritten as "English musician, who retired in 1997" and thereby avoid an unnecessary edit war. Twistlethrop (talk) 07:49, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

It seems this issue is flaring up again - anybody who would like to change the wording from "English retired musician", make your case here. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:57, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

"the only member never to sing on their records..."

Is this verifiably true? The Queen documentary Days of Our Lives shows Deacon singing Somebody to Love with all the other members in what appears to be a recording studio (from around the 28:00 mark). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.199.92.130 (talk) 19:50, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Added Peter Hince Interview

Have added a Peter Hince interview. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.217.136.62 (talk • contribs)

And as the policy for biography of living persons says, new information must be accurately cited (preferably to books or well-established journals), and anything questionable must be removed immediately and without hesitation. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:00, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Guide Guitar?

Should that be slide guitar? --JonValkenberg (talk) 12:15, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

No, a guide part is where a songwriter or arranger puts down a rough part that explains what they want a more experienced person to play later; the part is then removed from the final mix. For example, I have done recordings where the brass section is overdubbed later; in order to leave the right space for their parts, somebody hummed a basic tune in an isolated both onto a separate track. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:56, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, so I learned a new word. --JonValkenberg (talk) 18:17, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

John Richard Deacon - Bass Player “Queen”

It would be great to mention that John R. Deacon had studied “Electoral Engineering” at Chelsea College, London. These band legends were not your regular “run of the mill” musicians. They were highly educated, not to mention highly grounded with a reality in life. For instance, Jonn Deacon is still married to his wife of more than 44 years, married 18 January 1975, with six (6) children. I find this extremely pertinent to the unique background of the members of “Queen.” JeffGaw1962 (talk) 06:17, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

"Retired English musician"

Deacon's occupation is "retired musician". English is his nationality. Therefore he is an English (nationality) retired musician (occupation). He is not retired from being an English musician, he is an Englishman retired from being a musician. I hope that clears things up. ... discospinster _talk 14:17, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Earlier today after seeing this yet again I put a comment inside the article stating the consensus. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:25, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I don't agree with this. Where is the consensus you speak of? The most recent talk page discussion has both Nicknack009 and Twistlethrop arguing against it. I think "English retired musician" sounds odd and awkward. "retired English musician" flows more naturally and does NOT mean or imply that he has "retired from being English." Can we not compromise? Something along the lines of "an English musician, best known for being the bass guitarist for the rock band Queen until his retirement in 1997"? -- Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:41, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

"Where is the consensus you speak of?" Talk:John Deacon/GA1 and a general stability towards the version that passed there. As you can see, in April I said "anybody who would like to change the wording from "English retired musician", make your case here", and nobody did. I would oppose "best known for" lest the fires of Hades rain down on the article. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:58, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

I think "retired English musician" sounds awkward, come to that. ... discospinster _talk 16:21, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Ritchie "best known for" is already in the lede, I just proposed adding the retirement bit at the end of the sentence.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:20, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

My comments mentioned above were chiefly to do with the spoken language, because human mouths find it easier to wrap themselves around "retired English musician" than they do "English retired musician". But this all does seem like a rather picky storm in a teacup, because I believe most of us understand what is meant whatever the order of words might be. I'm left wondering why nobody has taken the bull by the horns and edited it out of desperation to read something like "...was the bass guitarist in Queen but stopped doing it in 1997". Ye Gods. Twistlethrop (talk) 18:37, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

The sentence an English musician, best known for being the bass guitarist for the rock band Queen until his retirement in 1997 is also a little awkward, did he stop being known as a bass guitarist for Queen starting in 1997? He was an English musician and when he retired, he became an English retired musician. Even if it's awkward in spoken English, reading it makes the most sense to the facts in the least amount of words as an opening sentence. oncamera 01:37, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Talk:John Deacon/GA1 includes no discussion of this point, so cannot be used to assert consensus. In British English, "an English retired musician" is not said, and "retired English musician" does not, as claimed, mean "retired from being English". The HTML comment is unwarranted, and should go. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:35, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

See WP:LAME#John Deacon Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:35, 27 December 2019 (UTC)