Talk:Jiraiya (Naruto)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Rasengan

It said by Kakashi that Yondaime only created half of Rasengan. And since only Jiraiya and Yondaime knew Rasengan, could it be possible that Jiraiya created the other half?

No. Read it again. You misunderstood. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 01:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Rasengan itself is only a half-complete technique. The ultimate in form manipulation, creating a perfectly swirling ball of chakra. It won't be a complete technique, however, until someone manages to add nature manipulation also, which is what Naruto is attempting to do with his kage bunshins.

Jiraiya might have done it, but we don't know. It's like Kishimoto avoided to say if Jiraiya has done so. But that might make Naruto's Fuuton : Rasengan look like crap, so ...SSJ 5 03:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• It does say that only Kakashi and Yondaime never finished it, but I guess that since Yondaime was the creater of the jutsu, then Jiraiya must have learned it from him, and Yondaime must have had a higher skill with it, due to making it. And Jiraiya has been in situations where he would have used it if he could, like the fight with Orochimaru. Kalga-han

Yondaime never finished it because he was planning to add more to it, thus it remains unfinished.

Differences between Manga Chapter 90 and Anime Episode 52

• In the Manga, Jiraiya is only briefly reluctant to train Naruto and agrees to do so fairly quickly. In the Anime, he is much more reluctant, and Naruto chases him all over Konoha before realizing that the Ninja Centerfold is his best bet.
• In the Manga, Jiraiya and Naruto are not observed. In the Anime, Ebisu recovers consciousness in time to see Naruto transform into a luscious Nymphet. Ebisu falls down a well.Das Baz 18:29, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
• In the Manga, the entire first training session takes place at the Kohona hot springs. In the anime, Jiraiya takes Naruto to a beautiful lake.
• In the anime, Jiraiya praises Naruto's trim body. The boy is angered by this comment, apparently feeling that the perverted Jiraiya is making a move on him.
• At the conclusion of the anime episode, Jiraiya, Naruto and a giant toad or frog take a pleasant and companionable dip in the hot baths, bringing a day of hard training to a happy conclusion. Das Baz 18:35, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

The Chief Toad's Opinion of Jiraiya

Jiraiya, Peeping Tom and Pornographer, is called a "lecherous lout" by the King of Toads. This is unkind, but accurate. Das Baz 18:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Episode 53

The next episode of the anime also has some incidents that are not found in the manga. Jiraiya is more interested in observing some shapely young female tourists wearing swimsuits and splashing around in the lake than in training Naruto. (This is in both the manga and the anime). To reel his wayward teacher back in, Naruto uses (in the anime, not in the manga) his power of instant transgendering, becoming once again the "Ninja Centerfold." Das Baz 17:03, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Jiraiya needs Naruto to use up his ordinary chakra. In the manga, Naruto does this by doing more walking on water. In the anime, he transforms into a whole platoon of Narutos (a technique which once saved him from getting digested by a giant snake) and fights a battle royal with himselves, until he is the only shinobi left standing. Das Baz 16:30, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Is there a particular reason why you keep adding to this? ~SnapperTo 18:55, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Several Reasons:

• The story keeps developing.
• The manga and anime keep diverging.
• Jiraiya is a fascinating character.

Das Baz 17:55, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll rephrase that for him: is there any useful reason you're doing this? This is a talk page for the article, not the character. That said, you exaggerate. The differences are minor and pointless. They don't even merit mention. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 18:52, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

The differences are neither minor nor pointless. Three times already so far in the anime, though only once in the manga, Naruto has used his powers of transgendering to transform himself into a sexy young woman in order to control his unruly teacher. This makes the anime story more erotic and disturbing than the manga story. It is also uncannily timely, given the Mark Foley scandal.Das Baz 15:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

If you really must point it out, do so on the specific episode's summary, because putting it on one of the affected character's talk pages isn't really going to accomplish anything. ~SnapperTo 00:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

You do realize the anime predates the Mark Foley scandal by a period of several years, don't you? – Someguy0830 (T | C) 00:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

That's right! "Coincidence reveals the will of God," as Karl Jung said. And thanks for the good advice. Das Baz 16:16, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

In all your talk of Itachi and Jiriya

You guys left out the confrontation between Itachi/Kisame and Jiriya/Naruto/Sasuke from the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.167.237.102 (talk) 05:55, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

Fire Release: Spiraling Sphere

It it canon???? 74.167.170.215 16:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

• Stands to be, if in a weird way. I doubt Jiraiya has added fire chakra, but he certainlly has used the sake doused version. Kalga-han

I don't think it can be called canon though. It's a video-game only move. Retlor 19:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• See your point, but I think it's safe to say he at least has the ability to use it in the anime, even if he doesn't, although I would think Naruto might use it first. Kalga-han

Name a reference to perverse hobbies?

How is the meaning of Jiraiya's name a reference to the fact that he is a pervert? Is the editor implying that "coming on one's own" can be used as a reference to masturbation? If so, I guess that makes sense. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.244.42.212 (talk) 06:42, 12 May 2007 (UTC).

Iku (going) rather than kuru (coming) is used to express climaxing in Japanese. The kanji used in Jiraiya is that of kuru (coming), so the pun does not exist in Japanese. It's unlikely that the author of the manga would attempt to make an obscure pun that would only be apparent in a future hypothetical English translation.

Current Rank

Couldn't Jairaiya's rank be classified as a Jonin or Sannin? I only bring this up because he's lead his own Team so he has to be Jonin+ and hes strong enough to take on Orochimaru so hes....you see what I mean right? The thing is putting down N/A is inaccurate definition of his Rank.

He has no rank. Rank is not representative of strength either. Naruto is still a Genin, yet was able to defeat an S-class missing-nin. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 16:31, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

i see what your saying Sephiroth, but i also think it would be ok for information purposes to but maybe his rank according to strength in parenthesis or something next to N/A, such as "(Kage Level Strength)". just a suggestion.Sarutobi627 20:34, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

But that's not official. It is never stated that he has "Kage Level Strength", nor is Kage Level strength even assigned a specific value. Strength is subjective. You Can't See Me! 20:36, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

ok then couldnt we just put Sannin, because technically that is his level.Sarutobi627 21:08, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

That's not a level. That's a title. It's more along the lines of "Vlad the Impaler" than "Emperor Vlad." You Can't See Me! 21:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

What?Sarutobi627 21:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Sanin is not a ninja rank. It is a title given to him. He is one of the "Sannin" - one of the "Three Ninja." That's neither a rank nor a level. That's a title. You Can't See Me! 21:29, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

oo ya i knew what you meant with that. i just didnt know what you where saying with the "Vlad" thing.Sarutobi627 22:32, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Although he is not a kage it has been officially stated that the legendary sannin have strenght equal to that of a kage. Also search Sannin on wiki and it will tell you about this.

Technically Jariaya IS a JOUNIN. As stated, you must be of jounin level to train a team of genin, no exceptions. It's more implied than stated. Leading of team of ninjas doesn't require this level. We've seen Shikamaru (a chuunin) lead one in the hunt for Sasuke. Sburstall 22:33, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

He's not a Jonin; at least, not at the start of the series. Consider this: a soldier may have skills beyond that of a general and may have led troops at one point, but may not necessarily continue to be a general to this day. You Can't See Me! 22:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

You're confusing leading with teaching. It's true a skilled soldier can lead a platoon into battle but takes a certain level to actually TRAIN them. You don't see army corporals training crack military squads. It's no different in the Naruto world. You'll see chuunins and above teach in the academy but chuunins and genins don't instruct small squads. Just give one example of a non-jounin instructing (not leading) a 3-person genin squad then this discussion will end right now. 70.90.36.205 17:02, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

If Jiraiya was a Jonin, the databooks would say so. He isn't given a rank in the databooks, so no rank is given here. ~SnapperTo 21:57, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Jaraiya gennin team

Doesnt that boy at the left next to that girl look like Oki. Im not saying he is but possibly.

WP:NOT#OR You Can't See Me! 22:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

It says in this section that his gennin team was composed of Konan and Pain, besides Minato. As of now (chapter 371), although there seems to be some hints of it being true, that still wasn't stated anywhere so it's just speculation, not a fact. I'm going to edit this out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.22.99.43 (talk) 01:07, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

then again, someone just did it for me :P —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.22.99.43 (talk) 01:11, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe it was Minato Namikaze, Konan, and Pein, as Pein refers to him as "Jiraiya-sensei" (24.14.94.243 14:38, 22 September 2007 (UTC))

I agree. Jiraiya does say that Konan had grown into a beautiful woman, and Pein does refer to him as sensei. It makes perfect sense.76.23.107.200 15:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Now we can't make any conclusions.... Sure the "Minato as Naruto's daddy" was a hell lotta obvious but still they didn't say anything directly yet. So, for now, I'm changing it. Ray93 16:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Konan and Pain were not part of Jiraiya's Genin team, he only looked after them for 3 years and taught them ninjutsu. the other person with konan and pain was yahiko but not much is known about him as a character.Shadow shinobi 21:04, 14 October 2007 (UTC)ShadowShinobi

Abilities?!?

"the two flee before he can start battling them" This is utter nonsense. You mean summoning a stomach to capture your enemies is not "battling them"? "Itachi and Kisame also comment that, were they to be forced into battle with him, both would surely be defeated if they fought together." I would like a citation on this, since it is completely false. Chapter 147 of the manga has Itachi saying: "That you can't say for sure" in response to Jiraiya's "I will just take care of you two right now." I believe that this is not supported in the anime either, since I seem to recall Itachi saying that he and Kisame could defeat Jiraiya, but not without risk of serious injury.

Whoever is rewriting all of the Naruto articles is doing a rather horrible job. The task should be left to people who have actually read the manga and/or watched the anime.

"This is utter nonsense. You mean summoning a stomach to capture your enemies is not "battling them"?"

I beleive they are reffering to it in the sense that you can't really discern his fighting abilities. And i would think that many people would 1 person using 1 jutsu on the other to not be much of a battle. Also, I beleive that it is implied that if itachi and kisame didn't flee, he would have been able to killed them with his Jutsu, since they only barely escaped thanks to Amaterasu. Perhaps not perfectly worded, but fairly accurate, and not deserving of your insults and your fanboyish attitude.

Rasengan (again)

Since we just had a section about the Rasengan removed from his abilities, I thought I'd ask about it here. It seems to me that, since a lot of significance is placed on Naruto learning this technique from him, we ought to at least make a brief mention of it in his Abilities section - maybe something like "Jiraiya is skilled in the Rasengan technique, but is rarely seen using it outside of training circumstances." Thoughts? ApokalypseCow 20:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh yeah, and Snapper - minor point, but he did use the Rasengan as a means of boat propulsion in a filler episode. Still not unique, but I thought I'd point it out. ApokalypseCow 20:15, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

The point is, he's capable of using the Rasengan, but he has never used it in on-screen combat. The abilities section is really more like a combat style section. If he does not use it for combat, it really doesn't fit. You Can't See Me! 20:18, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

And it's at the very least implied that he can use it in the Plot overview section. I don't have a problem with it being mentioned in the Abilities section, I just don't think it needs its own paragraph. ~SnapperTo 21:07, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, since it is at least already implied, I'll add an even briefer mention of it if I can find a good place for it- "In addition to being able to use the Rasengan..." Failing that, I'll just leave it out. ApokalypseCow 01:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I think everyone knows Jiraiya can do Rasengan. It just hasn't come up in battle. The one extended fight he had was while he was drugged and had awful chakra control, which would make Rasengan impossible to use.149.152.121.199 15:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

First of all, the Rasengan is one of his abilities so it should be mentioned. Second, he did use it on Chuunin when he first showed Naruto the technique.76.23.107.200 15:17, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Toad Travel

the last chapter gave Jiraiya a new ability in the form of, apparently, using the belly of frogs as a means of transport. I think this should be mentioned in his abilities section of his article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.13.209.200 (talk) 20:16, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you completely on your comment about including that jutsu on one condition. Please tell me the Offical name of the Jutsu. Until then we shall leave it out of the article maybe? Deblow 01:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by SuperN (talk • contribs)

yeah we cant add nothing if it does not exist,after all this is an encyclpedia. slick200- sept-2-2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slick200 (talk • contribs) 22:09, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't think of it as a jutsu. One of his frogs (which will probably remain unnamed) can transform its appearance and change size, at least from the size of a house to the size of a normal toad. Anything inside of it will shrink as well. He can also control its stomach like he did with the toad against Itachi and Kisame. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.152.121.199 (talk) 15:07, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

It's understood that Jiraiya has a lot of toad-based techniques. What could it hurt to put it in the article? There are plenty of things in other characters' ability sections that go unnamed.76.23.107.200 15:21, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Konan

Just because something is logically deduced based on current information does NOT mean it's proven. There could be information that the author can introduce later that will throw everyone's guesses out the window. and yes, everyone is GUESSING right now. Until the author states that something is, in fact, the case, don't assume that your guesses are fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.144 (talk) 16:43, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

chapter 371 says she is 1 of his disiples tick tick. i saw a spoilier.

1. Wait for the RAW so that we can confirm it.
2. "Disciple" doesn't necessarily mean "teammate" You Can't See Me! 22:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not confirmed through direct evidence that she's a disciple or one of the unknwon genin that was with Namikaze Minato, however, Jiraiya states in the very last page how she's grown. This heavily implies that he knows her more than we think, and she probably was one of the unknown genin. 69.14.59.139 01:06, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is, Im changing it now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.149.123.31 (talk) 17:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

No, it isn't. We'll probably find out for sure either way next chapter. Personally,I think she's one of the 4th's old teammates, as well. But no solid proof means no inclusion. If it doesn't explicitly state it, and it doesn't, then it stays out until it does. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.127.210 (talk) 17:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

How is it not proven? When konan mentions his presence to pein, he says, "Jiraya-sensei". And considering jiraya was never a teacher like iruka, it is only logical that the male genin is or was pein. Its been shown that pein has the ability to switch bodies, so, there is no proof that that wasan't his original body.busboy 20:18, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

ya fool it has to be —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.176.199.37 (talk) 23:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

It has to be, huh? Well, according to chapter 372... it isn't. Also, the idea that a Jonin will only ever develop a student-teacher relationship with three people is laughable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.127.210 (talk) 18:49, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

What?

what when did it say minato, kohan,and pein are in jirayas team, this could be but never said. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.223.202.247 (talk) 14:32, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about pein but the girl in the middle sure do looks like Kohan. To answer your question in chapter 371 they both refer to him as sensei so thats propaly where they got the idea. 71.200.36.214 18:19, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Jiraiya's Strength - It's being overhyped here...

Before jumping the gun, and shutting down my rant, I implore everyone to get through to the end, and understand the key point of why I'm showing you this.

Immediately after fleeing, Kisame begins to ask Itachi "Why did we retreat? You should have been able to.." - at which point, Itachi interrupts explaining "Since Naruto isn't too powerful, there's no need to hurry...and I also need to find a place to rest. Not only did I use Tsukoyomi...I even had to use Amaterasu...". He doesn't object to the fact that he should have been able to win (even in his condition). Switch back to Jiriaya. He plainly states that he was only "barely able to manage...to scare them away...". That's Kisame's word, Itachi's basic agreement, and Jiraiya's admission.

But let's add on to this. Orochimaru clearly had the upper hand in his fight with Jiraiya. Jiraiya had been unable to prevent him from defecting in the past, and couldn't out fight him this time either. Jiraiya was drugged, and his jutsu were weakened. Orochimaru had no use of his arms, and couldn't perform jutsu that require seals (most jutsu). Jiraiya is unable to stop Orochimaru's attack. Orochimaru plants his foot straight into Jiraiya's defense (Needle Jizou), and seizes him by the neck, biting into his throat. Orochimaru then explains the following: there is a mutual handicap, one that connects their differences. That Jiraiya should yield. I.e., having two handicaps of similar severity, it evens out to about how it would've been if neither of them were handicapped.

Jiraiya considered that he might have to kill Tsunade, which means it could happen. Tsunade is stronger than Kabuto, but actually had to try. Orochimaru is stronger than Jiraiya...

When Itachi was 13, he destroyed Orochimaru in moments. He caught him in a kanashibari no genjutsu before the fight even seriously started, and in the next instant, paralyzed him again, and severed his arm from his body before Orochimaru could react. Orochimaru fled the organization just because Itachi was so far beyond his reach that there was no way he could ever succeed. Instead, he searched for a different host, and used Sasuke to try and obtain the sharingan.

Itachi acts as the senior in his partnership. Kisame generally treates him as a superior, and defers to his decisions. Kisame can very easily be shown to be stronger than Orochimaru.

Kisame is atleast as strong as Tsunade, with ninjutsu beyond Sannin level, more than three times as much chakra as Semi-Kyuubi Naruto, greater speed than Gai, at less than a third of his power, and the ability to absorb massive quantities of chakra. I should probably elaborate, so I'll explain in detail.

It took six gates to beat a 30% Kisame clone. If that's the case, an eighth gates Gai would likely be less than half his full power. Anyone who opens all eight gates will temporarily gain speed and strength surpassing the level of Hokage, what about when someone like Gai opens them? What does that say about Kisame's full strength? His physical power is monstrous enough at less than a third of it's full capacity to slap around Maito Gai like an infant, he's clearly got Tsunade level strength at max. His ninjutsu is powerful enough to create an almost small lake-sized amount of water in the middle of a desert, once again, at thirty percent, and is more than adequate (at this level of power) in handling multiple people of jounin level ability. His speed surpasses Gai. At thirty percent. If Naruto has 100 times as much chakra as Kakashi drawing on the Kyuubi's power, and a thirty percent chakra clone has as much as Semi-Kyuubi Naruto, then Kisame could have anywhere from around 33 (assuming those calculations include tailed forms) to 330 (excluding tailed forms as a factor) times as much chakra...chakra affects stamina for jutsu creation, meaning there's almost no limit to the amount of stuff Kisame can continue blasting at you, in addition to already being ludicrously powerful. To top it off, he can absorb your chakra, and he can apparantly never used any of his stronger techniques in the fights we saw him in. So, yeah, physical power as great or greater than Tsunade's, ninjutsu at or above the Sannin level (at the very least), speed far greater than Gai's, tens to hundreds of times more chakra than an elite jounin, and the ability to drain your chakra pretty well does translate over to "probably a lot stronger than Orochimaru".

Still, to erase any hint of speculation, I'll go into further detail still.

Pre-timeskip Semi-Kyuubi Naruto wasn't actually all that much greater than Semi-Shukaku Gaara himself, if at all, since Gaara both admitted to underestimating him (and that he was still stunned from the last attack), and Naruto used up all his chakra still...and even Gamabunta couldn't handle Shukaku, both of whom could obviously crush Naruto like an ant, especially based on Naruto's...general interactions with Gamabunta. Even if he got stronger three or four fold over the timeskip, it's still doubtful that he could take out Shukaku in his semi-kyuubi form. Itachi even states that Naruto "isn't that strong" after having already sensed the kyuubi chakra. So, moving up one form (Ichibi, first tailed form) isn't going to suddenly make Naruto go from, like, worthless, to utter, uncontrolable ownage. He'd be a lot stronger, yeah, but it's limits should be..clear (Gamabunta is the most powerful summon of a lengerndary Sannin, and it takes four tails to put Jiraiya in the state he did). If he is far weaker than the Ichibi in Ichibi form, then he's clearly going to remain weaker biju four or lower in his corresponding (pre-form/nature manipulation) tailed forms, at least to some degree. The Nibi Jinchuriki was Kage level too (unlike a few others with stronger biju, who were apparantly weaklings), so there's probably not that much less difference between her and Gaara (who had gotten way stronger over the timeskip, meaning the full shukaku would make its previous self pale in comparison, as a biju and its jinchuriki grow and thrive off eachothers power) than there is between his bijuu and hers, and the Yonbi was clearly far, far stronger than either of them (the Yonbi Jinchuriki was considered extremely powerful). Therefore, Kisame>>>Yonbi>>>Yonbi Naruto>>>Orochimaru.

On the gates again, for further clarification -

It was stated that reaching the eighth gate, would effectively give you speed and power "greater than hokage". This would probably not be referencing the decrepit, aged Sandaime (see databook statistical measurements), who has less speed and power than some jounin (albeit, much, much greater technical ability [ninjutsu, taijutsu, genjutsu, hand seals]), and it didn't point anyone out, specifically. It's more like, saying "anyone who reaches eighth gate will have speed and power greater than hokage"...so what of Gai? He has tier five power already. If anyone, he's surely stronger than any Kage (albeit, not Tsunade, and physically, not overall), at sixth gate. It only takes a 30% Kisame clone to instantly outspeed and outpower Gai, and force him to sixth gate. Sixth. If he might've beaten him at a lower one, he certainly wasn't sure that he could end it, in that short window of time. It takes but less thank a third of Kisame's actual strength to do that? He'd already displayed suiton ninjutsu a level of which they couldn't believe, in that same watered down fight, so the rape-fest (to put it bluntly) certainly isn't exclusive to close combat. It's bad enough, without Sameheda being able to devour massive quantities of chakra. The fact that he beat the Yonbi Jinchuriki, which should've been stronger than Yonbi Naruto, without a visible scratch, delivers a last kick.

I might add, that if Jiraiya were actually stronger than Itachi, who could destroy Orochimaru within seconds, for Orochimaru to actually state that Jiraiya and him had a mutual handicap, in a fight that he was winning, would not only make Orochimaru a complete and total idiot, but possibly Kishimoto as well for writing it (with no good reason), and never contradicting it. It down to considering Kishimoto totally out of the loop with his own manga, or accepting that some of us might just be..wrong.

All of these things individually, are shown and/or stated within the manga. I can direct you to it if necessary. I've simply shown the correlation between them. The point I'm trying to get accross is, some individuals have jumped in with both feet to test the water - thrown in what they thought was accurate, in order to add to the articles, to his "abilities". Someone can come and pick it apart at any moment, so it's best to either avoid the subject, or choose your words more carefully - if an argument like this can be put up against it, it shouldn't even be implied within the actual article. --Waenishikusu 03:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Holy shit. Was all that really necessary? First off, it's all original research. We have to go by what they say. What they say is what the article reflects. To address your gates thing, you must remember that Guy equals taijutsu whore, a poor choice of tactic against powerhouse Kisame. Jiraiya, on the other hand, equals summoning whore, a much better choice. Not that this matters, of course, it's just to point out a fact. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 03:42, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

As said, all of these things individually, are shown and/or stated within the manga. I've simply shown the correlation between them. Is it original research to simply arrange it, and present it? It's all actually contained within the manga.

The key point is that there's quite a big difference between Jiraiya and Itachi, one that simple..tactical advantage will no longer make up for, and that it is impossible and contradictory for Jiraiya to be stronger than Itachi - it isn't even implied in the first place. Considering Orochimaru could have been killed by Yonbi Naruto, and couldn't even hurt him at all, and that the actual Yonbi Jinchuriki should have been considerably stronger, and that Kisame beat him without a visible scratch, even Kisame could be twice as strong as Orochimaru, who is stronger than Jiraiya (there is no reason to assume he made the statement he did for some hidden reason, with no hint towards this, or purpose in the manga, because no one writes like that - they are ink on paper, they do what the author intends, without individual thought process). The more important point still, is that if someone can come along and disect it to this degree, it's not exactly nuetral to make note of it within the wikipedia article, is it? --Waenishikusu 03:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

But it is neutral to note what characters have said. Kisame admits he's inferior, plain and simple, and Itachi isn't willing to fight Jiraiya outright. Analyzing situations for some hint of strength levels is pointless, because situations can make or break when and where victory occurs. Example: Neji should not rightfully have won against Kidomaru. He essentially threw himself on his own sword and got lucky. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 04:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Also bear in mind that one cannot say, "A can beat B and B can beat C, so A must be able to beat B." That is the very definition of original synthesis. By this logic, paper can beat scissors because paper beats rock, which beats scissors. You Can't See Me! 06:01, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

When did Kisame admit he was inferior? He said Jiraiya "might have been" a match for them, and later said he was dissappointed. And then he did say that Itachi should have been able to handle it. Itachi didn't dissagree. Itachi gave specific reasons for his retreat. Jiraiya himself did say that the most he could manage was to scare them off, and just barely. Why does this article present things in such a broken up way?

If it's an issue, I could source all of it. But I'm not even arguing for it to be included in this article in the first place. I'm saying what's already in here is already flawed, and it's not nuetrality to insinuate that Jiraiya could handle both of them, or either of them, when it's not specifically shown to be true, and that for at least one of them, it's stated that he couldn't. I'm saying it needs to be reworded, or rewritten. --Waenishikusu 13:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

There are two topics being covered in that paragraph: that Jiraiya has not displayed his full potential and that he is suggested to be powerful. Itachi and Kisame running away is used to backup the first, whereas their comments about him are used to support the second. However, given the likelihood that Jiraiya will be fighting at full strength in the near future, I've cut the first part out entirely since it won't be relevant for much longer. ~SnapperTo 18:59, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I suppose that is a proper decision (although, could that really be predicted, any more than the rest of this?) - however, it doesn't actually say much for Jiraiya's strength at all, that they ran. The expressed reason for why it was found necessary to retreat, was that Itachi had already used Tsukoyomi twice, and even had to use Amaterasu (due to the circumstances), and needed to find a place to rest - it wouldn't be smart to further exhuast himself against a Sannin, whilst being pursued by other Shinobi. Naruto wasn't very strong, and it was considered no loss to wait until later to capture him. It's even insinuated that Itachi could have beaten him in that condition..Kisame hardly seemed afraid, either. Is it really worth noting that they ran, when it doesn't really land his strength..anywhere, other than S class, which all the Sannin are? It seems kind of pointless to me. --Waenishikusu 21:44, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

1. Their retreat does indeed say something. Despite Itachi having used his MS twice by the time Jiraiya showed up, Itachi still had enough energy to perform Amaterasu and Kisame was at full strength.
2. Even prior to his use of the MS, Itachi commented that if he and Kisame fought Jiraiya, he would put the Seven Swordsmen and the Uchiha clan to shame. Granted, he left to rest because he used his MS, but he was avoiding the fight beforehand.
3. As for their lack of fear, that type of arrogance can be attributed to a large number of supervillains in all sorts of media. Nowhere was it implied that Itachi could have defeated Jiraiya in that condition.

You have some well thought out theories and interpretations. However, we have to go with exactly what the media says, not what it seems to imply, because people have different interpretations of those implications. You Can't See Me! 22:14, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Would Kisame later insisting that Itachi should have been capable (in what other condition, than his present one?), and Jiraiya commenting that he could only barely manage to scare them off not be more important to note, being more recent statements? This is also exactly what the media says. I'm probably reading a different translation, but I have that he "might" be able to outmatch them, and yet, Kisame indicates that Jiraiya isn't really meeting up to his expectations, when they encounter eachother. Orochimaru also states that they have a mutual handicap during their fight, connecting their differences, yet he had the upper hand. Orochimaru claimed that neither him nor Sasuke would be able to beat Itachi at the time, and had been hopelessly outmatched years prior. This is stated, but it's not taken into consideration. I do not feel that it is good to have the content of this article possibly insinuating something that breeds contradiction within the manga. The information is reliable, in that it is actually from the manga, but it is presented in a way that would lead others to the conclusion that Jiraiya is stronger than Itachi and Kisame both. --Waenishikusu 23:06, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

They sure seem to think so, and the title isn't just for show. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Lastly, unless you're japanese and can interpret the original japanese text without using a translation, interpretations can easily be flawed, if the translator uses might be instead of am/is and vice versa. Unless it's explicitly stated by the author in media, laws of logic and syllogism don't apply since the information set that you're drawing on is incomplete (i.e. the author can add more information and ret-con a whole bunch of things if he wanted to, therby throwing your assumptions out of the window). Hence, the criteria for original research and verifiability on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.144 (talk) 17:03, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Corroboration. If enough online translators can give you the same information, it's more than likely correct - however, it's not shocking it's found to be insufficient. This discussion, however, involved statements from volume 17 in addition to later statements, and volume 17 itself makes clear that Itachi, at least, could have won ('explicitly stated by the author in the media'). In the case of volume 19, I could find someone to break it down, to see if it can be cleared up completely, but the viz translation will be out in little more than a week. I'll let it rest until then. Viz takes a few liberties of their own in translation, so I'll consider looking into it further anyways...--Waenishikusu 20:55, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Are you positive that Itachi said that? Because I recall specifically in both the dub and in fansubs that it was Kisame who mentioned it; While Kisame and Itachi are speaking while on the cliff, Kisame was the one who pointed out that Itachi could take Jiraiya, which Itachi was quick to deny. You Can't See Me! 22:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

There are several instances, starting out suggestively, and eventually, pretty much stating it outright. First, Kisame had expressed dissapointment in Jiraiya, although, this is very vague. Next, Jiraiya says that he can't give Naruto to them - Itachi simply replies "that you can't say for sure". After they retreat, Kisame begins to speak..."Why did we retreat...? You should have been able to..." - Itachi interupts him, and does not correct him, but instead, explains why he chose to leave, being for entirely different reasons. When Naruto insists on going after them for what they did to Sasuke, Jiraiya tells him it would be suicide, then stating "I was only barely able to manage...to scare them away...".. --Waenishikusu 03:23, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I've reworded it as a compromise. I've added the point that it was his reputation that caused Itachi to make that comment, not Jiraiya's displayed power. You Can't See Me! 03:44, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

That is acceptable, though I can't actually find that line at all - "injured or worse". --Waenishikusu 15:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Itachi doesn't specifically say that, but he implies as much in chapter 144. ~SnapperTo 21:45, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe that he stated something along the lines of "If we were to battle together... we would both end up dead" in the dubbed anime. Then again, I haven't seen that episode in a while, so take that lightly. You Can't See Me! 22:55, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I checked again. He doesn't say anything close to that in the manga. --Waenishikusu 01:31, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Yet, the comment is still in the article. It's not even implied by Itachi. Kisame suggested it, and Itachi told him "every strong man has his weakness". After they actually meet, Kisame, the only one who indicated that he thought Jiraiya could beat them in the first place, showed that he had changed his mind by now, considering he doesn't understand why they retreated, and thinks Itachi could have handled it. In a tired out state, no less, for it's Kisame who repeatedly warns Itachi of using his mangekyo sharingan, and after three uses, has to have it pointed out to him that Itachi needs to leave, so that he can find a place to rest. =/ --Waenishikusu 20:45, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

"Every man has his weakness" referred to Jiraiya's womanizing. Itachi pointed that out as Jiraiya's weakness, not that Jiraiya himself was weak. Anyways, I found the line in three out of the three Youtube videos that I checked:

Here's the English dub. Check around 2:00.

Here's the original Japanese version, subbed in English. Check around 9:00.

For a third language, this Spanish sub has Itachi say the same thing at around 1:10.

Is that good enough? You Can't See Me! 23:40, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say it had anything to do with his power. I said Itachi never suggested that Jiraiya was stronger than him, or Kisame, let alone both of them. Kisame suggested it, and Kisame obviously changed his mind, since it is Kisame who points out that Itachi should have been fine. This line is anime only. It is non-canon, so I do not think it is good enough. --Waenishikusu 20:31, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

You're just not going to let this die, are you? So, why exactly is the anime non-canon? Far as I know, Kishimoto never refuted the events of the anime and in fact built upon them in some instances; for example, the Seven Swordsmen of the Mist were not brought up in the manga until after they were mentioned in a scene in the anime. You Can't See Me! 21:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Any anime adapted from any manga, or any manga adapted from any anime, is non-canon, in any of it's differences. If it did not appear in Kishimoto's work, it is not expressing his original intentions, through his work. Because Kishimoto hasn't and probably will not incorporate such in the manga, it didn't happen in Naruto. There's no arguing which is more valid; anime or manga. The manga was written by the original author, with his intents and designs set forth. If someone wishes to include extra techniques and scenes, they may. However, they are not valid in discussion pertaining to Naruto, as written by Kishimoto. For example, I could write a fiction where Kakuzu performs a Tendril Clone Technique (if I got it licensed, for what it's worth), but if it isn't included in the manga (as written by Kishimoto), it isn't a move that Kakuzu knows. Not in canon. Same goes for any character, event, or likeness of Naruto. --Waenishikusu 01:59, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Damn, shut up about it already. Anime is canon because we are not allowed to make our own judgments about its relation to the series. Everything you're presenting is original research. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:05, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I gave you direct statements from the manga. If you call that original research, you're badly joking with your self. Anime is not, and can not be considered canon, if it not only pulls something entirely new out of nowhere that the original author had nothing to do with, but is contradictory to contents of the manga. If it is still, in your opinion, I think you need to take it up with Kishimoto, and the "innaccuracies" of his work. Canon is no longer canon if you define it in a way so loosely interpreted. --Waenishikusu 02:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

No, you gave us lines from the manga and then presented us with an explanation of your own interpretation. That is indeed original synthesis. There is no reason to believe that the anime is non-canon so long as the specific instance does not directly cotradict the manga. Get over it. You Can't See Me! 02:57, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

The fact that Kisame was the one to suggest that Jiraiya might be stronger than them, the fact that Kisame stated later that it didn't make sense why they treated, and that Itachi should have been able to win (showing Kisame changed his mind), the fact that Itachi never says a word about it in the manga, and the fact that Jiraiya stated that the most he could do was scare them away, is not original synthesis. It is exactly what the media contains. The original works and the intentions of those works are what define canon, but I'll skip over that entirely, because if one is to process what I have just written on the contents of the manga, it is inheritly obvious that it is in a position of direct contradiction to the manga. Please explain the following - how is it not contradictory for Itachi to claim like he knows it that Jiraiya could outdo both of them, when Jiraiya himself states that the most he could do was scare them off? How is it not contradictory, that Kisame then claims that Itachi should have been able to win, directly followed by Jiraiya's claim, if he was the only one to ever stronly indicate otherwise within the manga? --Waenishikusu 03:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

If the only supporting evidence for your argument is a bunch of outdated scanlations and analysis that is never said outright, you're wasting your time. Unless you would like to walk us through the Japanese of chapter 144, you aren't going to get anything changed. ~SnapperTo 03:34, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I feel bad for Waenishikusu. He's absolutely right, he's proved all of his points PERFECTLY, yet...you people are nit-picking, trying to find ways to invalidate his arguments (and failing), saying anime is canon when it clearly isn't, and you're just giving him an all-around hard time. He's proven why Itachi and Kisame are both and individually stronger than Jiraiya, by leaps and bounds. Re-read his arguments. I defy you to find a single, tangible flaw, and to present it, because then I will shoot it down. This guy's a buddy o' mine on an anime board, and his arguments are some of the best I've seen. I'm not too shabby myself, either. And I've seen plenty of guys like you. What's so wrong about accepting that Itachi>Jiraiya and Kisame>Jiraiya? Your arguments are that Itachi and Kisame stated they would lose. Beforehand, yes, but Itachi alone expressed that (Kisame just said he wasn't sure if he could handle him). And it's possible Itachi was lying, to sabotage the mission. Why would he do that? Well, why wouldn't he, if his goal is actually to NOT capture Naruto? Think about it: he met Naruto again in chapter 355, had him beaten, had him all alone with no one to help, yet he didn't capture him. It's all speculation at this point, but evidence suggests that Itachi has been sabotaging every opportunity he's had to capture Naruto. Even if you ignore that, you can't ignore the concret, in-the-manga statement by Kisame that Itachi should have been able to win, even in a weakened condition. And that's even while they KNEW ANBU was trailing them, so that indicates it wouldn't have even taken very long. And of course, you have Jiraiya and Orochimaru both nearly getting killed by Yonbi Naruto on individual occasions, while Kisame beats the actual Yonbi without a scratch. How can you ignore that? How can you say that it's not in the manga? It IS in the manga. Every last iota of it. Right down to Orochimaru being stronger than Jiraiya, with the mention of a mutual handicap and Oro's clear dominance in the fight. And then when you consider how quickly and easily Itachi utterly destroyed Orochimaru...how can you still possibly say that Jiraiya is stronger than Itachi, or even close at all for that matter? You can't. Simple as that. Argue all you like, but the fact remains. You can write it off as an opinionated interpretation all you like, but you will not find any of his or my own information to be incorrect. Not one bit of it. And if it's not incorrect...then doesn't it point to exactly what we're trying to say? It should be painfully obvious, but apparently, there are still some people who don't see it yet. In all honesty, to the highest degree of honesty from the depths of my heart, I cannot for the life of me understand why. It's there. In broad daylight, wrapped up with a pretty bow. It's not interpretation, it's logical extrapolation based on proven evidence and supported by proven fact, and in this case, supported by actual statements on multiple levels of the argument. I have yet to see anyone prove wrong any of Waenishikusu's points from his FIRST POST. And you know what? I won't. Because he's absolutely right. This isn't an argument, so much as he and I trying to explain it as simple as we can, as directly as we can, and as indesputibly as we can, to make sure everyone who hasn't realized it yet does: Itachi>Kisame>Orochimaru>Jiraiya. It's proven by us, it's proven by direct statements, it's proven by multiple occurences, it's proven by the manga in general. It's not a question of whether we're right or wrong, it's a question of how can we prove to you that we're right, which is always more difficult than actually finding out IF we're right. Not accusing you guys in particular, but there are people, and I do know a few off the top of my head, who are just too stubborn and unyielding to have intelligent debates with. I will say, though, that none of you have demonstrated anything near as bad as some of the people I've experienced discussions with (Waenishikusu can probably think of one person in particular and immediately know who I'm suggesting; it's a person on our board, he would honestly drive you out of you mind), but at the same time, I will say that you ARE ignoring some blatantly obvious facts that we've presented you with. Please understand, no offense, and I apologize if I'm coming off as confrontational (I have a bad habit of that), but please try to consider our points a little more thoroughly. As far as translations are concerned, I've seen several, and they all have the same basic meaning as what Waenishikusu's been saying. And he's repeated things several times now. I REALLY detest repetative arguments, so please, let's all stick to simply using counter-arguments rather than nit-picking. If translations are an issue, go out and read a few different ones. It's what I always do. That way, it's pretty easy to see what's fact and what's fiction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.189.225.18 (talk) 03:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Comparing two items and drawing a conclusion, especially when something has been explicitely stated otherwise, is original research. Assuming something to be non-canon when it is not explicitly so is original research. We are using a repetitive argument for several reasons: it works, it applies, and it rules. Your and Waenishikusu's points were well done in some regards, but they can't be used to support your argument to change the article. Why? Because they are original research, something you have not been able to - and will not be able to - shoot down. This is a manga: things are Uber when the writer wants them to be, things are pathetic when the writer wants them to be, and things can will change based on what the writer wants. Therefore it is impossible to draw conclusions based on comparisons of separate events and we must instead draw conclusions from what is explicitly stated. There's the flaw you're looking for. You Can't See Me! 03:13, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

If it happens in the anime and not in the manga... Is that not the definition of "non-canon"? Does not the term "canon" apply to what is in the actual manga, nothing more, nothing less? EVERYTHING THAT OCCURS IN THE ANIME WITHOUT BASIS IN THE MANGA IS NON-CANON. There are plenty of things "explicitly stated", but they are proven wrong. You're telling me that in spite of the overwhelming evidence, it's just "original research"? Do you deny that Orochimaru and Jiraiya fought with a mutual handicap? It was stated. Do you deny that Yonbi Naruto nearly killed them both? You deny that Itachi, at age 13, effortlessly overpowered Orochimaru in seconds? Do you deny that Kisame beat the Yonbi without visible injury? Do you deny that Itachi is stronger than Kisame? We're not linking random occurences. These things are shown and have a point. They are canon, and they are as credible as any direct statement. Add onto the fact that the supposed "Jiraiya>Itachi&Kisame" line stands alone as the only supporting piece for that side of the argument, while all of these occurences we've mentioned, IN ADDITION TO OTHER DIRECT STATEMENTS FROM THE MANGA, prove that the single "Jiraiya>Itachi&Kisame" statement is wrong, and actually VERY far from the truth. You can't call it "original science". This isn't balanced power, with one character beating the other based solely on Kishimoto's wish. He's not going to have Konohamaru own Pein, at least not without something to explain Konohamaru's ability to do so, like suddenly being made into or revealed as a Jinchuuriki or being given some special training from God, or something. Even Dragonball isn't that inconsistant. Characters can do what they can do. You can't rely on ONE statement, especially when said statement has little credibility on it's own, AND has numerous other statements and events that prove it wrong. Now, admittedly, it's not as simple as "A can beat B and B can beat C, therefore A can beat C", but when you have two people of near-equal power such as Orochimaru and Jiraiya, and have one of them get beat as easily and swiftly as Itachi beat Oro, there's no question that C, Jiraiya, is weaker than Itachi by a ridiculous margin. Even if he has some advantage that gives him a better chance than Oro, you can't honestly say that it's enough to compensate. That's just...BEYOND ridiculous. Things are stated for a reason. Likewise, things HAPPEN for a reason. It's common sense, not original research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.189.225.18 (talk) 03:59, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

If that's all it was, I'd drop it. I don't expect wikipedia to use my evidence, or anyone elses in any article, because that is original research, no matter how accurate or compelling it might be. However, direct statements are being ignored, contradictions are being ignored. Jiraiya does state that the most he could do was scare them off. Kisame is the only one to state outright (which according to your own words, is necessary) that the pair would lose to Jiraiya, and he takes a different stance later. If you'd like me to walk you through the chapter in full, I would be more than willing. It's in there. --Waenishikusu 04:35, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

That is not the definition of "canon". True, it would be if you considered the canon of the manga, not the canon of the franchise. There is no reason to believe that filler is non canon unless it is directly contradictory or if the writer(s) say otherwise.

In any case, there is no argument. You can't say that X is stronger than Z because X > Y and Y > Z. This is a work of fiction. Sasuke could be annihilated by Rock Lee one minute and hold his own against Orochimaru the next. Pikachu can wipe out a Golem with an electric attack in one scene yet fail to knock out a Tailow with the same shock. Goku's ability to become a Super Saiyan was at one a one-in-a-million event, but everybody learns how to do it in the following few arcs. Heck, Adava Kadavara is said to be unstoppable by any magical means, but the simple protection charm stopped it several dozen times in the last few chapters of the Harry Potter series. Things change at the mercy of the writer to suit his or her convenience. If that means that Kisame can overpower the four-tails without breaking a sweat yet is so fearful of Jiraiya that he avoids direct conflict at all costs, so be it. If that means Jiraiya could kill the both of them, yet he uses everything he has to drive them away in the next scene, so be it. Just watch: in the next few chapters, Jiraiya will end up in direct conflict with Pein and he will uber up, even if only to demonstrate how much stronger Pein is. Logical chain of strength does not apply because the writer will contort it to prove a point.

So, what do we go by? We go by what the series gives us. Itachi states that Jiraiya can kill both Kisame and himself in a fair battle. Kisame was at full power when the duo was forced to retreat, possibly even moreso after absorbing Naruto's chakra into his sword; it doesn't matter that Kisame got arrogant when he and Jiraiya actually met, because he retreated anyways and would have lost his life if not for Itachi. They clearly avoided any direct conflict with Jiraiya, looking first for a weakness to exploit. It took everything Jiraiya had to drive them away, yet it also took Itachi's most powerful technique to escape. This is what the manga provides. This is what the anime provides. This is not my own personal synthesis, my own personal analysis. This is what happened. What did not happen? Kisame and Itachi did not stick around to even consider fighting Jiraiya, despite your chain of strength. So why do you insist that they could have? We do not know that they could have defeated Jiraiya because we have not seen them fight him. "Could have..." is speculation. "Could have because..." is original research. "It happened" and "He stated" are verifiable, so that's what goes on the article, not some elaborate "What if" which is composed of the readers' logic rather than the writers'. You Can't See Me! 06:06, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

If it's not canon to the manga, it's not canon period. If the author didn't express it in some way, it doesn't exist in canon. We're judging by the manga, the most basic and most reliable source for information. You can't judge the anime filler as canon because there ARE contradictions, and there ARE holes, and there ARE things that don't seem to make sense. I already explained that I agree "A>B>C, therefore A>C" is not the law of the Naruto world, but I also explained that in the case of Itachi as A, Orochimaru as B, and Jiraiya as C, Jiraiya and Orochimaru are about the same level, with Oro being a bit stronger, stated and proven, and with Itachi being incomparably superior to Orochimaru, there is no possible way that Jiraiya could be stronger than Itachi. The difference is just too big. It's insane to then say Jiraiya is stronger than both Itachi AND Kisame. Call that "original research" if you want, it's cold hard fact. If that's not enough for you, what about the direct statement that Itachi should've been able to kill Jiraiya, even in his weakened state, and even with ANBU on their trail? And what about Jiraiya admitting he barely chased them off? Are you going to ignore TWO direct statements in favor of one? And for the record, that single statement was made BEFORE they actually met, and the two against it were made AFTER, meaning they were revised/corrected opinions on what the outcome would've been. And if that still isn't enough...just look at the sequence of events I've listed as proof. Just because things were done instead of said doesn't mean they aren't just as credible. The author does things for a reason. In spite of what you seem to think, no, Kishimoto does not just get slap-happy with characters and play musical chairs with their placements on the power tier. If Jiraiya really could've killed both Itachi and Kisame, yet was nearly killed by Yonbi Naruto, then there's no possible way Kisame could've killed the Yonbi. It's basic logic. The author doesn't just throw in random battles. For example, Vegeta was beaten (badly) by Frieza, yet he thrashed second-form Cell like a child. Cell at that point was stronger than the Androids, who were stated to be stronger than Frieza (by a lot), so does that mean Vegeta is still weaker than Frieza? It's never stated, but it's proven. You can't write something off just because it wasn't stated. It happened. That's a fact. And besides, don't you see how little sense things make if you ignore events in favor of only what is written? Jiraiya nearly gets killed by Yonbi Naruto, yet Kisame beats the full Yonbi by himself and without injury. But Jiraiya can beat Kisame, and Itachi, who is stronger than Kisame, at the same time? Do you not see how ridiculous that is? That's why you can't ignore events. They're every bit as crucial and reliable as statements. True, things vary based on individual skills and circumstances, but no sensible advantage is going to let Yajirobe kill Majin Buu. Kishimoto isn't some lunatic who makes battles that contradict eachother. If Jiraiya nearly got killed by Yonbi Naruto, he's only a spitting-distance from Yonbi Naruto on the power tier, meaning Kisame, who defeated the full Yonbi, is MUCH stronger, with Itachi being even stronger than that. If a character wins, there's a reason for it. Base Naruto took down Kakuzu because he had highly intense training and learned a godmoddish move, and Kakuzu was weakened anyway. Shikamaru beat Hidan because Hidan is an idiot and Shikamaru is a genius, who knew his moves and got him to fall right into a trap. If Jiraiya can't beat Yonbi Naruto without nearly getting killed, he's not going to be able to land a single hit on even Kisame without some new trick or having done some heavy-duty training. Characters' powers are constant unless change is expressed, be it in the form of a new technique, the completion of a training, or a simple improvement in performance for watever reason. If a character fights one character, he performs at a certain level. If that character fights a much stronger character, he isn't going to perform as well. You aren't going to have a character who only manages a stalemate with Rock Lee suddenly turn around and thrash Gai and Kakashi at the same time, without any change in his strength or new techniques whatsoever. It just doesn't happen. You can't label things as taboo. If they're in the manga, they're canon. In this case, we have something backed by statements AND events. Yet...a single statement- and a vague one at that, with arguable credibility -is the centerpoint of the argument against it. And that's because nothing else exists to contradict our points. Just that one statement, which was proven incorrect by other statements alone. Even if you're reluctant to accept the outcomes of fights as proof, it still has SOME weight, that can't be denied, and it delivers the final punch. Itachi>Kisame>Orochimaru>Jiraiya. Proven. Fact. And on another note, Amaterasu isn't Itachi's strongest technique, or at least wasn't stated to be.

My god; what is with all the essay-length comments on such an insignificant topic? Both of the officially licensed English forms of Naruto (anime and manga) agree with what the article states. Continued usage of old, unofficial translations to prove a point or flawed reasoning that attempts to determine which fictional character is stronger than which are completely irrelevant to the article. ~SnapperTo 18:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I already explained that I agree "A>B>C, therefore A>C" is not the law of the Naruto world, but I also explained that in the case of Itachi as A, Orochimaru as B, and Jiraiya as C, Jiraiya and Orochimaru are about the same level, with Oro being a bit stronger, stated and proven, and with Itachi being incomparably superior to Orochimaru, there is no possible way that Jiraiya could be stronger than Itachi.

Let me rephrase myself then: A > B = C = D > E _>_ F >>>>>>>> G does not necessarily mean that G < A in any work of fiction because the author can make G >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A to proove a point, or sometimes, just to further the plot. Strength cannot be compared through separate, individual instances. I've already given you examples of why this is true; prooving it's not true will take more than just bringing up Vegeta being beaten to a pulp. Honestly, A > B > C -> A > C does work sometimes, as in your Vegeta example. A > B > C -> A > C is unreliable, however, because while it may work, it does not always. You Can't See Me! 21:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Kishimoto doesn't write in information, and never contradict it, and expect us to figure it out, because no reasonable, intelligent author writes like that. The power tier is given a lot of focus in action-based shounen, and Naruto isn't the only series of this type to have released databooks containing information of the individaul character strengths, i.e., the Daizenshuu power levels in Dragonball, and the statistical charts in the Inuyasha Character Databook. Is it coincidence that all of the contents of these books agree with logical analysis, in certain cases, down to very precise, calculated mathematical figures (daizenshuu)..? It's hard to manage Kishimoto's team constructed two databooks, shading in character statists for ninjutsu, taijutsu, genjutsu, intelligence, power, speed, stamina, and hand seals, with Kishimoto's oversight, which, Kishimoto himself worked on, and not understood what he was doing when he tied it together originally. In fact, I'd challenge anyone to find one contradiction with Kishimoto's databooks. But this is besides the point, although I felt this needed some clarification, on how you view this series, and our approach to understanding it properly. It's entirely irrelevent to the main point I am trying to make.

My original point, was that if someone could put up a devestating argument against something stated within this article so easily, it doesn't belong in the article, at least not as it is stated. This was corrected, and it was edited to indicate that this statement had to do with Jiraiya's reputation - however, my other point has been continually ignored, and the question has never been answered. Not one of you has made an attempt. I'll repeat myself word-for-word: If that's all it was, I'd drop it. I don't expect wikipedia to use my evidence, or anyone elses in any article, because that is original research, no matter how accurate or compelling it might be. However, direct statements are being ignored, contradictions are being ignored. Jiraiya does state that the most he could do was scare them off. Kisame is the only one to state outright (which according to your own words, is necessary) that the pair would lose to Jiraiya, and he takes a different stance later. If you'd like me to walk you through the chapter in full, I would be more than willing. It's in there.

I asked this specific question earlier on: Please explain the following - how is it not contradictory for Itachi to claim like he knows it that Jiraiya could outdo both of them, when Jiraiya himself states that the most he could do was scare them off? How is it not contradictory, that Kisame then claims that Itachi should have been able to win, directly followed by Jiraiya's claim, if he was the only one to ever stronly indicate otherwise within the manga? --Waenishikusu 22:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Never stop, do you? Original research. That's all you're doing. We're not changing something simply because you can type a 1000 letter rant about how you think people line up. Facts say just one thing, and that's what we repeat. Your original research says something else, and that's what we avoid. Get over it already. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 22:58, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I can't believe you have the nerve to say that, right after that post in particular. He JUST got done saying he's not trying to get you to use the info. And, yet again, his points were ignored. "Original research" aside, he's absolutely right: Jiraiya STATED that he barely chased them off, and Kisame STATED that Jiraiya wasn't what he expected. Kisame ALSO STATED that Itachi could've beaten Jiraiya. That right there is not original research. But even so, our original research is based on manga evidence, through occurences. They are part of the manga. True, Kishimoto can make characters win if he feels they should, but he doesn't do it randomly. There are reasons characters are stronger than other characters. I've said it before: this isn't balanced power. If Kisame can beat the Yonbi without a scratch and Jiraiya nearly gets killed by Yonbi Naruto, there is a massive power gap there, and it's obvious that Kisame is stronger. It may be original research, but it is no less correct than any outright statement. Again, we aren't trying to convince you to use our original research, we are simply using it to prove a point in this debate over who's stronger. There isn't anymore to it than that. This is just a simple discussion. But on a personal note, I don't see how it's original research to take proven facts from the manga that the author put forth and use them to prove a point. Kishimoto includes things for a reason, and as Waenishikusu said, the consistancy is backed by the databooks, which are written-in-stone rankings on the power tier based on multiple aspects of strength. Itachi effortlessly beating Orochimaru and Orochimaru thrashing Jiraiya in an even fight indicates Itachi is way above Jiraiya. I mean, if THAT's original research, then so what? Maybe if Itachi's fight with Oro was a stand-alone occurance, I'd be acting like an idiot by insisting on it as proof. Maybe. But in this case, there are multiple instances in which this "original research" of mine is proven dead-accurate and perfectly logical. If it's in the manga, it's canon. If it's canon, it's cold-hard fact. It's perfectly understandable why Wikipedia is reluctant to use original research, since it's often wrong, but that's why we're not asking you to use it. We're just discussing the matter, using raw canon fact. Every ounce of which, mind you, all of you have failed to provide counterevidence against. You just keep calling it "original research", as if that makes our arguments invalid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.189.225.18 (talk) 00:04, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Don't pose as an anonymous editor in an attempt to get your point across. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 00:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Look, I'll make this as simple as possible:

• Did Jiraiya and the duo engage in combat?
• No, they did not.
• If they did not fight, do we know for sure what the outcome would be?

No, we do not.

• Can we guess which side would win?
• Yes, but that is speculation.
• Can we guess which side would win based on chains of strength?
• Yes, but that is original research because chains of strength and tiers are established by fans examining and drawing interpretations from primary sources, not taken directly out of the primary source itself.
• Can speculation or original research be placed on Wikipedia?
• No, it cannot.
• Is there anything left to discuss?
• No, there is not. This is the end of discussion. You Can't See Me! 00:17, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

An anonymous user? I don't have a username on this site...or whatever. And I'm too lazy to look around for a place to type one in, so unless you or someone else tells me, I'm just going to remain an anonymous block of text. It's not like it matters, anyway. We don't know eachother, and we use screen names, so it's still anonymous. I mean...have you seen your own screen name? As for knowing who's stronger...

Kisame: Why did we have to retreat...? With your power...

Itachi: ...There's no need to be impatient... None. ...Besides which, I must also...rest my body in one place for the forseeable future. For not only Tsukuyomi, the nightmare realm...but I was forced to use the Amaterasu as well...

---

Jiraiya: I mean, it even took me a huge effort just now......just to distance them from you...

^The exact dialogue from the Viz translation after Itachi and Kisame confronted Jiraiya. Kisame stated that Itachi could've handled it, Itachi explains that there's no need for them to be impatient and fight Jiraiya to get Naruto, and Jiraiya admits that it took "a huge effort just to distance them" from Naruto. It can't be any clearer than that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.189.225.18 (talk) 02:17, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

That doesn't prove who's stronger. It suggests that Itachi is good at stealing things and that Jiraiya is bad at protecting things. Until the two fight to the death, there is no legitimate comparison of their abilities. Find something better to do. ~SnapperTo 02:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It also proves there is no legitimate reason to assert that Jiraiya is likely stronger. What is the point of even including statements about his abilities, if there is no legitimate comparsion of their abilities? The fact that his power should have been enough, is clearly not in reference to his ability to steal things, an unlikely assumption at best - and Jiraiya's being bad at protecting things is just as baseless. From the context, it's not even clear that Itachi is talking about Jiraiya to begin with. I'll drop it, because I can see this is going nowhere, but quite frankly, it took you guys long enough to even address the statements. I'd suggest that you make the context more clear, but if it suits you, leave it be. I'm beyond caring anymore. --Waenishikusu 04:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not registered in wikipedia, so excuse me for I'll make a comment anonimously. Strenght is not everything in a battle. Taking as a basis a game of soccer(I'm brazilian, I have to use soccer as an example :D), Just because Team Fla beat team Flu by 3x0, and team Flu beat team Bota by 5x0, it doesn't mean that team fla can beat team Bota by 8x0 nor by 15x0. That are many other factors besides strenght in a fight specially in Naruto's World.

What we can say about Kisame, Itachi, Oro and Jiraiya is that they are all very good ninja, 2 of them being S-class criminal and 2 having a legendary status. Itachi is very good at using genjutsu, so if Orochimaru is weak against genjutsu, then he would be an easy prey for him. PErhaps Oro didn't want to hurt Itachi's body, so he didn't fight him at all of his strenght(he could use jutsu's like the ones he used against Hokage Sarutobi). Also, In jiraiya vs. Oro battle, tthay are both handicapped, sure, but we can't say which handicap is worse. I would say that Jiraiya's handicap was worse, but that would be original research, right? We can't be sure... What can we be sure of, then? That original research is against wikipedia policies.

Orochimaru says "Even with us both having handicaps, it's like this. Give it up." If it was only because of the handicap, Orochimaru would not have said "even with". In addition, it was not only because of the genjutsu, for Orochimaru also states that neither Sasuke, nor himself would be able to kill Itachi at their current levels (Sasuke, someone on Orochimaru's level, with a bloodline limit related to casting and penetrating/reversing genjutsu [in addition to it's mirroring abilities]). It might be debateable if the gap was small, but Orochimaru was frozen and dissarmed (literally) within an instant, and left the organization and pursued Itachi's younger brother instead just because Itachi had been so far above his level, that there was no way that he could ever succeed. If it's true that Jiraiya is weaker than Orochimaru, then what kind of technical advantage could possibly bridge such an immeasureable gap between the two? I would compare it more to a school team thrown in to the proffessionals. --Waenishikusu 01:23, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Waenishikusu, I think you are right but there is also no evidence whatsoever that you are right. We can speculate that you are right but we can't prove it. For example, when chapter 371 was released we could speculate that Konan and Pein were the teammates of Minato. However, chapter 372 proved otherwise. Although that is a weak example, I believe I made my point. To further illustrate, you have been saying that Kisame stated that Itachi could have taken on Jiraya. But, neither Itachi nor Kisame thinks they could have won against Jiraya. In episode 83 they both state that they could not have won against Jiraya. Kisame states, "Perhaps you can fight him evenly but I cannot. He's too strong." In reply Itachi states, "Yes. If we both fought him, we would both be killed... or in a good case, we might kill him, but we'd die along with him. Even if we had more men, the result will not change." That indicates that Itachi does not believe he could have won the fight. Also keep in mind that Itachi said that before he used the Mangekyou Sharingan. He did use it on Kakashi but it is implied that he had time to recover. Two episodes later in episode 85 when fleeing Kisame asks Itachi, "Why must we retreat? You could've..." and kisame is cut off by Itachi saying that there is no need to hurry. Another one of your points was that since Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru who is stronger than Jiraya, Itachi must be stronger than Jiraya. There are not one but two flaws in that assumption. The first is that Orochimaru was incapable of taking over Itachi's body because he was stronger than Itachi. Orochimaru said that Itachi was stronger than he is but he never said that he was incapable of killing Itachi. Since Orochimaru's body transfer is done in a different dimension, because of Itachi's sharingan he was able to escape that. However, it is entirely possible that Itachi, Orochimaru and Jiraya are all of similar strength. The second is if you take 5 people of the "same" level each one capable of manipulating a single element (fire, air, lightning, earth and water) its true that if you compare the fire guy with the air guy, the fire will in all likelyhood win. And air over lightning and so on and so forth. But if you compare say air and earth you cannot say for certainty that air will win or earth will win. The statement that Itachi was stronger than Orochimaru could just mean that Itachi's type is better against Orochimaru's type. Another point you made was that Kisame had approximately 30 to 330 times the chakra capacity of Kakashi which is not true. Neji compared Kisame's 30% clone to the Kyubi powered up Naruto pre-timeskip. Kakashi compared his chakra capacity to Naruto's after the timeskip after witnessing the 2-tail transformation. Since the seal had been weakened inadvertently by Jiraya we can no longer use that as a mode of comparison. All we know is Kisame is really really strong. Probably as strong as the current 4-tail naruto. However, there is still no evidence to say one way or another. And also I dont follow your reasoning as to why the yonbi is stronger than 4-tail Naruto. Another point that you misinterpreted was when Jiraya says "I barely managed to get them away from you back there." He was probably referring to the fact that naruto almost had his arms chopped off by Kisame before he interfered. He could also have said that to calm down an upset Naruto so he wouldn't do anything rash and to demonstrate that the enemy is infact very strong. The reason why it is not what you said it was is because of something Jiraya said(thought) prior to that. As soon as Itachi and Kisame escape, Jiraya thinks to himself, "I can't believe they broke through these walls." He also asks himself "How did they escape?" These two things indicate that Jiraya was surprised at the fact that Itachi and Kisame were able to escape from him. In addition to that, prior to when Itachi used the Amaterasu, Kisame implied that they were going to be done in by the wall of meat if Itachi didn't do anything about it. All in all although I think that Itachi is stronger than Jiraya there is no concrete evidence that he is. I want Jiraya to be stronger just because I like him better. But the sharingan is too powerful and as such Itachi is probably stronger than Jiraya. *sigh* --IronFist567 04:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

There are several obvious flaws with this. First of all, Kisame did say Itachi could have handled it. "Why did we retreat? With your power...", then Itachi cuts him off. It's obvious where he was going with that, since he saw his power as a reason it would be okay to stay and fight. This is with the exhuastion from using the mangekyo sharingan multiple times, and Kisame was the last one to warn him about this. Second, Jiraiya says it took a huge effort just to distance them from him. I'd say killing both of them would take a considerable amount more effort than distancing them. In addition, what would be the point of saying that it took a huge effort "just" to distance them from him, instead of simply saying it took a huge effort to distance them from him? Third, Jiraiya himself points out that they don't seem to know much about him. Fourth, It's not clear from the context whether Itachi and Kisame are talking about Jiraiya, or the Kyuubi Jinchuriki. They go on about how Itachi might be able to do it, how they might kill eachother, how Kisame thinks he'd die, then continue on to say "It was great finally finding him in the ramen shop, but...his babysitter was one of the three great shinobi of Konoha legend." It could be that they were talking about Naruto, and didn't know how strong he was, or how much of his bijuu's power he could access, or it could have been Kishimoto changing the subject badly. In either case, notice when you look at their coversation, how they use the words "might" and "probably" to describe the outcome of the confrontation. Fifth, Kisame never implied that either of them were about to die. He only mentioned that a wall of flesh was coming after them. Sixth, Sasuke does state in chapter 309 that for both him and Orochimaru, at that time, killing Itachi would be impossible. Sasuke, with Orochimaru's abilities absorbed, still only beat Deidara due to an elemental advantage and a summoning scroll, Sasori was stronger than Deidara, and Orochimaru planned to kill Sasori - dispite the fact that he ambushed him on a bridge, with Kabuto, a skilled medical ninja, and probably had a plan and an antidote in that situation, killing Itachi was said to be impossible.

Last, my reasoning for the Yonbi Jinchuriki being stronger than Yonbi Naruto was simple. Semi-Kyuubi Naruto = close in power to Semi-Shukaku Gaara. Naruto shuts up and does anything Gamabunta says, because basically, Gamabunta intimidates him, and could flick him off his head into a pond in water country. Shukaku is stronger than Gamabunta. Even if he got stronger three or four fold over the timeskip, it's still doubtful that he could take out Shukaku in his Semi-Kyuubi form. Itachi even states that Naruto "isn't that strong" after having already sensed the Kyuubi chakra. So, moving up one form (Ichibi, first tailed form) isn't going to suddenly make Naruto go from, like, worthless, to owning bijuu. If he's far weaker than the Ichibi in Ichibi form, then he's clearly going to remain weaker bijuu four or lower in his corresponding (pre-form/nature manipulation) tailed forms, at least to some degree. The Nibi Jinchuriki was Kage level too, so there's probably not that much less difference between her and Gaara (who had gotten way stronger over the timeskip, meaning the full Shukaku would make it's previous self pale in comparison, as a biju and it's junchuriki grow and thrive off eachothers power) than there is between his bijuu and hers, and the Yonbi was clearly far, far stronger than either of them (the Yonbi Jinchuriki was considered extremely powerful). --Waenishikusu 21:24, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

The meaning of "Sannin"

Densetsu no Sannin, or 伝説の三人, means "three people." The kanji used in the article for sannin (三忍) is improper--さんにん in hira (Sa n i n) means "three people"--not three Ninjas. This is how it is used in the manga. SailorAlea 09:03, 4 October 2007

http://www.tv-tokyo.co.jp/anime/naruto/chara.html uses 三忍 (under Naruto). Seems to me precedent is set for nin as ninja instead of people. Do you have a picture of the RAW manga showing a different use? — Someguy0830 (T | C) 10:07, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

369 uses 三忍, though I don't think he meant that was incorrect. Anyway, the hirigana for 三忍 is given as さんにん, which is also used on the same page for 三人. This, along with my nonexistent knowledge of Japanese and many years of public educated mathematics, tells me that 忍 = 人. 忍 does not yield a useful translation, whereas 人 yields twelve kinds of "people". This suggests that the full title is, as Alea indicated, simply "Legendary Three". That would also explain why "ninja" is absent from both the English manga and the dub whenever they use the title. ~SnapperTo 22:14, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The dub uses "sannin" last I remember. Not so sure about the manga. In either case, the same character is used for ninja in ninjutsu (忍術), so I fail to see how it would be different here. Furthermore, were is really meant as person, it would have been written in the same manner as ero-sennin (エロ仙人). — Someguy0830 (T | C) 22:31, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

And the manga uses "shinobi" or "ninja". Odd that I wouldn't remember that... ~SnapperTo 03:33, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Eh, happens. Then there's the legions of translations all saying "three ninja", and I doubt such a fuck up (however trivial) would persist through so many versions. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 03:36, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

It's pretty straight forward. "三忍" is intended as one word, so its "meaning" is closer to "trininja" than "three ninja". If you actually wanted to say "three ninja", you'd say "mittsu no nin" (三つの忍)... or something like that. –Gunslinger47 06:05, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I think what's confusing people here is that 忍 in 忍者 (ninja) and 人 (people) both have the ニン (nin) reading. Since this manga is about ninjas I think it's obvious which one makes more sense. 70.107.141.110 17:53, 12 October 2007 (UTC)