Talk:Jeroboam Sacrificing to Idols

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A fact from Jeroboam Sacrificing to Idols appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 8 April 2021 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Fragonard won the Prix de Rome for painting Jeroboam Sacrificing to Idols (detail pictured) in 1752, when he was 20 years old?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2021/April. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Jeroboam Sacrificing to Idols.

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 17:30, 3 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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Article history

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Jeroboam's hand "shrivelled up"

... that Fragonard won the Prix de Rome for painting with Jeroboam Sacrificing to Idols (detail pictured) in 1752, when only 20 years old? Rosenberg, Pierre, Fragonard, exhibition catalogue, 1988: Galeries Nationales Du Grand Palais, Paris, September 24, 1987 – January 4, 1988, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, February 2 – May 8, 1988, online

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Epsom College in Malaysia - @Cwmhiraeth

5x expanded by Johnbod (talk). Self-nominated at 22:36, 20 February 2021 (UTC).[reply]

This article is new enough and long enough. The image is in the public domain, the hook facts are cited inline, the article is neutral and I detected no copyright issues. Just waiting for the QPQ. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:07, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. This is good to go. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:01, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Johnbod: The article says that "he no doubt had begun painting it by his 20th birthday on 4 April", but I can't find that in the cited source. Am I missing something, or is this not supported? —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 17:04, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't a DYK point, but the submission date was well before the announcement of the prizes on 26 August, and this is a large, complex and highly worked painting that would have taken several months. So there is "no doubt". Johnbod (talk) 17:11, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Johnbod, I don't see how there can be "no doubt". It may be extremely likely, but to put such a certainty in Wikipedia's voice without it being verifiable in a source renders it WP:OR. It seems to me that this needs to be addressed prior to the article being promoted. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:43, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Rather perversely, the function of the phrase "no doubt" in English is to express that there is less than full certainty, and a degree of assumption in the statement that follows. If there was "certainty" the phrase would be omitted. So it seems fine to me (as well as nothing to do with DYK) but I'm open to a rephrase. Johnbod (talk) 17:08, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Johnbod, would you be amenable to changing "It won him the highly prestigious Prix de Rome for painting on 26 August 1752, and he no doubt had begun painting it by his 20th birthday on 4 April" to "It won him the highly prestigious Prix de Rome for painting on 26 August 1752, when aged only 21" or something similar? That would eliminate BlueMoonset's concern, and still show how young he was. MeegsC (talk) 13:39, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In other words, omit the point completely, while introducing a mistake as to his age? No thanks. Johnbod (talk) 17:47, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry; I clearly screwed up his age. I was hoping to promote this one, as the image is great, and the article nice too, but given the snarkiness, I guess I'll just let you and BlueMoonset work it out between yourselves. MeegsC (talk) 10:26, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Johnbod, with further perversity, "no doubt" has two meanings according to Webster's: "undoubtedly" and "doubtless" on one side (without any doubt, or with certainty), and "probably"—it gives the certitude definition first. So to avoid any ambiguity here, since many (like me) will go with the first meaning, I believe it shouldn't be used in this context, and do not concur with If there was "certainty" the phrase would be omitted as a conclusion that a reasonable reader would make—I took it as extra clarity rather than any lack of certainty. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:53, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, what do suggest then? Johnbod (talk) 19:19, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Johnbod, absent a reliable source making the statement that he had definitely or likely started it prior to April 4—which Rosenberg doesn't appear to say, based on the comment earlier (I can't view page 52 of the book, unfortunately)—I don't see how WP:OR allows anything more than him winning the prize when he was 20 years old, which is nevertheless a significant accomplishment. I've changed the article accordingly. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:39, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Cwmhiraeth, I was wondering whether you could take a look at the changes, and give the article another tick if it's ready. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:24, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. This is now good to go. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:08, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Jeroboam

I believe the “Subject” description is incorrect; isn’t Jeroboam the man on the left instead of the right? If so, the cropped picture in the page for Jeroboam would be misleading. (Redacted) 04:36, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

No, "The moment depicted is when Jeroboam, at right in the white turban, is about to sacrifice to pagan idols, when an unnamed prophet (standing, at left) intercedes:[4]". Why do you "believe" otherwise? Johnbod (talk) 15:17, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I used to think that too @Johnbod, but after consulting various sources I’m not so sure. To me it doesn’t seem fitting for a king to be seized while performing a sacrifice ritual, rather, it appears that the man being held on the right is a prophet stopped by Jeroboam‘s order. After consulting the book referenced at the bottom of the article I am confident in my hypothesis (see pp. 53-54 of [1]https://books.google.com/books?id=PuXYe0KadNIC&printsec=frontcover&source=gb_mobile_entity&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&hl=en&focus=searchwithinvolume&gbmsitb=1#v=onepage&q=Jeroboam&f=false): “Jeroboam, the first king of Israel, was about to make an offering to the Golden Calf when a prophet came before him; when he gave the order to arrest the prophet his hand 'dried up' […] the sacrifice was a profanation” (Rosenberg, Pierre, Fragonard, exhibition catalogue, 1988: Galeries Nationales Du Grand Palais, Paris, September 24, 1987 – January 4, 1988, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, February 2 – May 8, 1988 p. 54, online).

Consider also these (rather informal) sources:

[2]https://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/tools/image-gallery/k/kingdom-of-israel

[3]https://www.thehistoryofart.org/jean-honore-fragonard/jeroboam-sacrificing-to-idols/

[4]https://www.wga.hu/html_m/f/fragonar/father/1/01jerobo.html

I find the following explanations compelling:

“Jeroboam, first king of northern kingdom of Israel, on the far left, hands raised in prayer. The right side of the composition is far more dynamic in comparison to the statuesque figure of Jeroboam, with officials restraining the man who is to be sacrificed. In the center of the composition, one can make out a golden calf in the background, one of the symbols of God that Jeroboam erected in the temples he built...” [2]

“The scene in front of us captures the moment when confusion ensues as a prophet is placed under arrest for speaking out of turn.” [3]

May I ask what your source is?

Pepperoomph (talk) 06:56, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Rosenberg obviously, I think he is clear enough. The only one of your non-RS sources to clearly identify Jeroboam as on the left is the dubious www.bibleodyssey.org, which thinks the man in the turban is the intended victim of a human sacrifice, which is OR nonsense. You need to ask: whose hand is stretched out at the centre of the painting? Who is elaborately dressed? Who is standing at the altar? And so on. You should compare the earlier depiction of the subject at the bottom too. Johnbod (talk) 14:25, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for the delay, we clearly are interpreting Rosenberg differently, but I appreciate where you’re coming from, thank you for elaborating on your position. I will attempt to look for more unambiguous and reliable sources and come back if I find anything. Pepperoomph (talk) 06:00, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Good luck with that! The king is not being "seized" but supported by his attendants, as he is an elderly man in a state of shock. Johnbod (talk) 13:57, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]