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Archive 1Archive 2

"James Tan" used instead of Jeremy Lin

It seems this article has been defaced by putting the name of someone other than Jeremy Lin in subtitle and above the picture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.9.233.4 (talk) 06:17, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

It's been fixed. Good call :> Doc talk 06:27, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

New proposal for last sentence of lead

Since the last sentence is disputed over nationality, ethnicity, politics, etc., I think this sentence might better achieve the meaning of the original. The original is: Lin is one of the few Asian Americans in NBA history, and the first American player in the league to be of Chinese or Taiwanese descent.

New proposal is: Lin is one of the few Asian Americans in NBA history, and the first American player in the league whose parents are from Taiwan. Note: "Taiwan" is used as a distinguisher for the place where he is "from", not as a form of political intention. This is the same as saying he or his parents are "Taiwan people" - 台灣人 in Chinese, where 台灣 means Taiwan and 人 means person/people). This distinguishes from 中国人, which means "Chinese national/person", or a "Chinese person from mainland China", rather than the island of Taiwan, and we would not use that here since Jeremy's parents aren't from China (modernly) in this modern perspective that both Chinese mainlanders and Taiwan(ese) people have.

This new proposal is still a bit disputable, but a little more copyediting can remove the political connotations involved in this sentence. Some help is appreciated. - M0rphzone (talk) 06:09, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

What is the dispute? Please see FAQ (also at top of page). "first American player in the league whose parents are from Taiwan" is original research. While likely, we cant be sure the origin of other players' parents. We don't have sources that make the claim you are trying to make. Perhaps they lived/worked there but never became citizens. "from" doesn't imply nationality, only that they inhabited for a period of time.—Bagumba (talk) 06:51, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
The fact that his parents grew up in Taiwan has been cited numerous times. "Parents from Taiwan" is not original research. I see what you meant by that but your interpretation is not what I'm actually implying and suggesting. It's just a matter of meaning versus actual written depiction. Like I said, this will need some copyediting. This sentence should actually be split, so that the "first American" adjective won't describe his family immigration status/nationality. So instead of "from Taiwan", which is vague, it can be "grew up in" Although, a better meaning could be "parents who grew up in Taiwan" or "whose family is from Taiwan" or even better: "whose parents are immigrants from Taiwan". These are more specific meanings than the original, but still need some copyediting to imply the real meaning without the political connotations that might be implied with insensitive wording. The goal of this is to provide a description without being biased or politically correct and vague. Of course we can just stick with the original vague, politically correct description if no one is willing to take the effort to improve the description. - M0rphzone (talk) 08:22, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Btw, this interview explains the situation quite well (from the American and Taiwanese perspective). - M0rphzone (talk) 08:22, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

re: your comment of "take the effort to improve the description": For a constructive discussion, please provide specific points that contradict assumptions already outlined in the FAQ. Waving at an IBT article does not prove a point. My interpretation of that article is that China and Taiwan want to claim Lin as "theirs", but such POV does not belong in a lead as he is not a piece of property. While Taiwanese tradition might disregard his maternal side, the article is not written specifically for a Taiwanese audience. A significant number of sources, and Lin himself, make reference to his Chinese heritage. Writing from an "American and Taiwanese perspective" is not neutral.—Bagumba (talk) 19:15, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Considering you are a third-person POV, I think this is the best compromise then. Original sentence is VAGUE, but neutral and politically correct. - M0rphzone (talk) 22:31, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
I don't understand why people want to get rid of "of Chinese descent". The fact is Lin's maternal grandparent is originally from China, so he is of Chinese descent. Any non-neutral change is not an improvement.—Chris!c/t 20:26, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

It's mainly from ideas of illegitimate claims. People think that the mainland Chinese are trying to claim and generalize Lin into the overarching Chinese nationality/identity when in fact his family grew up in Taiwan, which made them have different education and ideologies than people from the mainland that went through the state (Chinese Communist Party) education and ideologies. People get the notion that the Chinese (mainlanders) even dare to make claims to Lin like they do to other issues and inventions, achievements, etc. of Chinese diaspora when the achievements aren't even accredited to the modern Chinese (state) and (mainland) people (since many of the notable overseas Chinese did not go through the CCP indoctrinations and (re)education). Many people have the notion that since the (modern) Chinese (mainland) are copycats, piraters, uninnovative, and "thiefs", they don't deserve to make claims to a person whose family comes from Taiwan. Of course when they make the claim that the ancestry is from China, that is obviously true, yet it's a pretty long stretch that many people try to use in order to "justify" these claims and use any sort of reasons and excuses. But since this is modern world, these types of "ancestral" excuses/justifications don't look well to recent immigrant diaspora (not from Chinese mainland) and their achievements. - M0rphzone (talk) 22:27, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

But it really doesn't matter in this modern, increasingly international/standardized world, and of course Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral and politically correct (lol as if it actually is neutral since certain articles attain a slant attributed to the topic as well as the American/English influence and bias). So I guess we will keep the sentence as is since it is politically correct and allows for both claims (btw, political correctness is freaking lame and satire-worthy). - M0rphzone (talk) 22:27, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

The justification of trying to get rid of the "Chinese" part of Jeremy Lin sounds more like paranoia and POLITICAL. Just because a group of fans from China or even media propaganda might claim that he is a Chinese National, it doesn't take to long to understand or even research the fact that Jeremy Lin is not "FROM" China or Taiwan. You can argue that it needs to be edited to "Parents from Taiwan" but then anyone else could argue that he has grandparents directly from Mainland China, so then it should read, "Parents from Taiwan, with grandparents from China".

He also isn't even a fluent speaker in Mandarin or any other language besides American English, which is a even more obvious indication that he is not from either China or Taiwan. Blaming others speculation is like trying to argue just because a bunch of fans say something about a player automatically makes it true. The Wikipedia article already provides more insight about his ancestral heritage, including that his parents are from TAIWAN. However, the fact that Lin has already stated in numerous occasions about his own identity, being a Christian first, but still identifying that he has both Chinese and Taiwanese heritage stands. There was a point that even FILIPINO fans mistakenly thought that Jeremy was Filipino, but that was quickly struck down as people figured out it was a misunderstanding and not true. The same concept applies, it has nothing to do with upbringing, education, or ideologies because if that were the case, we might as well start arguing about whether or not Jeremy is a Democrat or Republican! This is not a discussion of politics, it's simply heritage that he has acknowledged on numerous occasions.

(5:57) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f20R5Uxx3EQ - "In addition, if you look at my history I have grandparents, greatgrandparents from China, parents from Taiwan, and I was born and raised in America. There's a lot of history." - Jeremy Lin PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 07:24, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

"suffered a setback" needs clarification

The second paragraph of the Knicks sections states that Lin "suffered a setback". Makes me wonder if he stepped on a cupcake, failed an exam or lost his wallet. Needs clarification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.246.6.24 (talk) 17:03, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

It was Baron Davis, not Lin, that suffered a setback due to his herniated disk. -- The Writer 2.0 Talk 18:10, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Quotes

User:Festermunk started to remove all the blockquotes because of non-notability. I agree with his decision on 2 quotes. But on 2 others, I disagreed. The Kobe Bryant quote is a representation of what many players and experts think. Lin's own quote on stereotype is also notable. I want to know what others think.—Chris!c/t 06:02, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

He also doesn't understand how Wikiconsensus works. If a text is disputed and doesn't obviously fail any of the major Wikirules like WP:V, WP:BLP, etc., the default action isn't to remove it; it's to maintain the status quo (whether the text has been removed or not) while it's discussed on Talk.
I also disagree regarding the notability of two of the quotes he's removed. The Foreign Policy quote is from a well-known academic/government journal that is seriously discussing whether Lin could affect US-China relations (!) and whether his rise could be seen by history as more important than a concurrent state visit by China's Vice President (!!). The "Secretariat" quote is notable for discussed in the article body. They're both unusual, interesting, well sourced, and relevant to the discussion. That makes them notable, period. Ylee (talk) 06:29, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Actually I do understand how Wikiconsensus works thanks. Strangely NPOV doesn't figure into your enumeration of major Wikirules but I guess we're going to have to leave that as it is. You're right if a disagreement breaks out, the first step is to bring it to the talk page, but that doesn't mean the default action can't be not to remove the quote in dispute nor upsetting the "status quo" (whatever that even means.)
"notability of two of the quotes he's removed" Not exactly. I think the word you're looking for here is relevance, not notability. Yes they're notable, but that doesn't mean they're relevant to the paragraph much less meet the criteria for having the quotes boxed out, which is for the quotes to be so interesting and important that is deserves to be set off from the surrounding. I have no problem with keeping the quotes in the article but to have the quotes boxed out would require much more than the fact that they're "notable."Festermunk (talk) 00:05, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
No actually you don't understand how consensus works. The default action is not to remove if previous consensus has been established that they should stay.—Chris!c/t 02:22, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Chris, you're letting on more than what little you know. "If previous consensus has been established that they should stay" Aside from the fact that the whole "u r violating da konsensus" argument is a weak reason for rejecting my argument, previous consensus hasn't been established it's been assumed. That and the fact that WP:BURDEN still falls on you, not me. Festermunk (talk) 02:45, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
You are violating the consensus. Yes it could change, but it hasn't changed yet. And nobody owns the page so you can't force your way and just override consensus.—Chris!c/t 03:00, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
But I'm not overriding consensus, I'm just pointing out that WP:BURDEN falls on you. Also, the fact that I've violated an assumed consensus implies nothing about punishment. (of course, it'd be a different case if consensus was established as you yourself point out)Festermunk (talk) 03:10, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
You are. Consensus was established before. It is not like you starting to remove right after they were just added.—Chris!c/t 03:24, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
No consensus was never established, it was always assumed. Unless you can show me otherwise evidence that it was established, then pardeon me french again, but this is shit you're making up on the spot.Festermunk (talk) 03:54, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
It was established. You can always use "oh it was assumed because I don't like it" as an excuse to ignore consensus, but it is there.—Chris!c/t 20:11, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Kudos for bringing this to the talk page. I support the Lin and Bryant quotes. Lin's quote is relevant; there is an AP article on Asian-Americans not being viewed as athletes. Lin's quote is a both a summary of the common perception and his personal response. Bryant is a 14-time All-Star, and many sources after wrote how he was outscored by Lin. His opinion is highly relevant. Per {{quote box}}, it's use "is useful in articles that are short on images and need some graphic-like element, or where an important or interesting quote wants to be presented in a way that sets it off from the surrounding text." Both points seem applicable. the Foreign Policy quote is a prediction of sorts, and the "Secretariat" quote involves a horse some might not be familiar with, so I'm OK with those not being emphasized, but can be in the body.—Bagumba (talk) 06:43, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Two weeks later, a similar quote from Bryant received coverage. There is some interest in what he says apparently.—Bagumba (talk) 19:24, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
I will restore the Lin and Bryant quotes since the user has made no attempt arguing why they should be deleted.—Chris!c/t 20:45, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Apologies for the delay in response as there have been been other things that have occupied my attention in the past week and a half. I've removed the quotes, but I've provided a more sufficient explanation for my actions comparative to my previous posts:
Kobe Bryan't quote: There's two reasons why this should be taken out because: 1) nothing in the quote is relevant to Jeremy Lin's performance as a New York Knicks in the current 2011-2012 NBA season. The closest thing you can evince in terms of relevance from Bryan's quote to Lin's NY Knicks 2011-2012 career is his statement that his talent was, "probably there from the beginning" (cue the word "probably") but even then the connection between that statement and his performance as a Knicks isn't clear; and 2) Lin's 2011-2012 NBA career has yet to end, so even if Kobe Bryant's quote was relevant it'd be tentative to pass judgment on Bryant's quote as so defining Lin's performance as a Knicks in his current 2011-2012 NBA career as to deserve a box-quote. That said, there's a few things I'd like to point out: the first is that the fact that while Bryant is definitely a notable basketball player, it's strange to say or imply that the notability of a person should be the major (or the first among others) reason why that quote ought to be boxed out. Notability is important, but should be less so for reasons of common sense to the criteria of relevance. The other thing is that I'm not against having quotes boxed out; in fact, given Lin's tremendous performance, I have no doubt that a quote can be found after the 2011-2012 NBA season ends that so aptly summarizes Lin's 2011-2012 NBA career along the lines of what Bryant's said about Lin that it can be boxed out.
I don't see why we need to wait after the season ends before adding quotes. The thing is at this point in time his quote is notable, relevant and timely. So we add it. If at a later time, it is no longer relevant or a better quote comes along, then remove it then. Also {{quote box}}, it's use "is useful in articles ... where an important or interesting quote wants to be presented in a way that sets it off from the surrounding text." Right now this is interesting.—Chris!c/t 02:41, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Of course we can always talk about my first point, which is Bryant's remarks and its non-relevance to Lin's 2011- Knicks season, but since you don't want to talk about it, I guess we'll just have to leave that for another time. As for waiting for the season to end before adding the block quotes, you can't have a quote that distinguishes itself from the surrounding text if the surrounding text is still in development. Festermunk (talk) 03:36, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
How is Bryant's remark not relevant to Lin's season? The season doesn't have to end for the quote to be relevant. Either it is or it is not. And it is. The surrounding text is always in development as it is not set in stone. So by your logic we can never put a quote there.—Chris!c/t 20:30, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Jeremy Lin's quote: I actually don't mind this quote. That said, I think there's a quote that better captures his feelings on his racial issues, namely his statement that, "Maybe I can help break the stereotype." Here is the article in which his quote can be found, which in full should read: "I understand there are not many Asians in the NBA and there are not many Ivy Leaguers in the NBA. Maybe I can help break the stereotype." It's better than the current quote that's boxed out for two reasons: 1) he makes a clear reference (though it takes an implicit form) to the racial issues he's had to deal with i.e. under-recruitment because of his skin colour, which is captured by the his statement that he wants to help "break the stereotype." Although in the "deceptively-Asian box out quote" he makes reference to the fact that he's had to deal with racial issues, the implication is not as clearas can be found in the "break the stereotype" quote because he waffles by saying, "But it could be the fact that I'm Asian-American." 2) The other reason why the "breaking the stereotype" quote is because it references his desire to use his capacity as a basketball player to combat his racial issues, which is significant given how important basketball is to Lin's identity. Festermunk (talk) 00:05, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Wow I am amazed that you actually think highlighting "Maybe I can help break the stereotype" is better. While this quote is relevant, it is boring and lacks the "wow" factor. The "deceptively-Asian" quote is more interesting. Lin actually gave an example of the stereotype he faced that Asians are slow. I think this is even clearer. "Maybe I can help break the stereotype" Well what stereotype?—Chris!c/t 02:52, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Chris, really pardon my french, but what the hell are you even talking about? The quote is boring and lacks the "wow" factor? What does that even mean? Also You're missing the point it's not what the stereotype is, it's whether he thinks the stereotype exists at all; in the "deceptively Asian" quote, he says the fact that people think he's slow could (but not certainly) be ascribed to the fact of his race, but in the "Maybe-I-can-help-break" quote, he makes it very clear that the stereotype actually exists. I think where you're getting confused is the fact that the word "maybe" appears at the front of the sentence; that word isn't modifying whether he thinks the stereotype exists, but his effort in trying to break the stereotype. If by the "wow" factor you're referring to the length of his quote, then that can definitely be fixed by block-quoting his statement of Asians in the NBA and breaking the stereotype quoted in the SF Gate uneditied. Otherwise, I still don't have clue as to why you'd think his quote is "boring" or lacks the "wow" factor. Festermunk (talk) 03:05, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
"The fact that people think he's slow could (but not certainly) be ascribed to the fact of his race" Why else would people think he is slow if not for his Asianness? Do you really think people would think a similar built black players slow? This is an example of a stereotype. I can't grasp why you don't see it. Do we really need to add his "Maybe-I-can-help-break" quote to establish that stereotype exists. Of course it exists. Th existence of that section shows that. Otherwise why the hell do we even have a section here on race.—Chris!c/t 03:21, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Well first off the section isn't about race, it's about racial issues Lin's had to face, so you couldn't even get that part right. You're right, the fact that this section exist implies that Lin has had to deal with racial stereotyping...which is all the more reason to blockquote the quote I support and exclude yours because in my quote Lin make his feelings on racial stereotyping unequivocal. That and the fact that there's the basketball element too which he wants to use to combat the racial stereotyping. Festermunk (talk) 03:54, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Racial issues he faced is about his race. Race is why these things happened and why we have a section. What planet are you on? Back to my point. Your suggested quote is relevant but it is generic and plain. The one there is relevant and it delivers a more powerful message because it was a comment about one particular stereotype and his feeling about it. Why you want replace a powerful interesting quote with a generic and plain one is beyond me.—Chris!c/t 20:30, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
I strong agree with the quotes, they are relevant to each section of the article. Removing them would be stupid. GWST11 (talk) 05:59, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I left a WP:3RR warning on User:Festermunk's talk page based on his, well, edit warring. One more reversion will lead me to bringing this to administrator attention. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:26, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Festermunk was blocked for one day. Editors, please be vigilant tomorrow in case he resumes edit warring upon his return. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:16, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
I trust that Festermunk has good intentions. However, I do not support his proposed changes. The Bryant quote is notable. Witness all the articles that made a big deal that he claimed to not know much about Lin beforehand. Like it or not, sources find a 14x all-star's opinion notable. There is no need to wait until the end of the year. If its not notable later, it can be deleted later, not now. The current Lin quote is also better IMO. It says people find him deceptive instead of giving him credit. The "stereotype" quote could be that Asian players are simply not very good instead of there being a stereotype. While editors are encouraged to be bold, it should also be stated that consensus does not have to be unanimous.—Bagumba (talk) 03:46, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
I agree with you, but it's important for Fesermunk to understand that we have consensus here, and as you say, one objection does not override it. – Muboshgu (talk) 05:36, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

deletion of photo

Resolved
 – Photo kept

Hi - User ucla90024 is persistent in removing one of the few freely licensed images we have on this page. The most recent reason for the deletion was given as "does not add anything." I find that completely uncompelling. The article is short on images (we have to resort to linking to external images), and that was the only image of him in an actual game as a Knick. Thoughts? de Bivort 21:10, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree, it should stay. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:12, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
I put it back in - there is nothing wrong with it. If this user continues to delete it based on WP:IDL, that is hardly a good enough reason to keep it out. Doc talk 21:15, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Commend editors for being bold, but its time to discuss once there is a revert. Thanks for bringing this here. Until a better photo comes along, this is OK considering its free.—Bagumba (talk) 21:21, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 6 March 2012

Resolved
 – Claim of "disrespectful" text kept as it is neutral.

Dear Editor,

i do think the comments [ref.to footnote 167, 168] to JLin are very disrespectful [kind of personal attack]. i ask for your removing of these awful descriptions hereby.

thank you for your time and concern.

lam kwok-wai wendy 6 Mar 2012

220.246.32.106 (talk) 03:07, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

That part describes a controversial comment made by a media personality. It doesn't represent Wikipedia's position. Wikipedia is not censored so there is nothing wrong with that.—Chris!c/t 03:17, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

thanks for your prompt reply and i respect your choice of material but feel very disappointed towards such selection. thank you. -wendy lam — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.246.32.106 (talk) 03:33, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Since the condemnation by AAJA is mentioned, plus the writer's apology, it seems like a fair depiction so readers can know about the press coverage Lin is receiving, for better or for worse.—Bagumba (talk) 03:41, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Jeremy Lin Foundation

Stale

Why is there no info on this? This article is heavily imbalanced. 174.255.112.178 (talk) 18:04, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I can't see any harm in mentioning it, personally. Doc talk 18:27, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

LIN ethnic background

Resolved
 – Wording was tweake to clarify

He is NOT the first of Chinese decent in the league. this is just falt out wrong. Yao ming and YI on the Mavericks to name a few came before him. I cant believe such a naive statement is still on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.181.54.230 (talk) 06:50, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I did not see any mention of Chinese descent without the qualifier "American". Did you even read the FAQ at the top of this page? HkCaGu (talk) 07:24, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
The article says he is the "first American player in the league to be of Chinese or Taiwanese descent". This is correct. Notice the key word American.—Chris!c/t 02:03, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Quite disrespectful (and shames all chinese/taiwanese people) that some people can't be JUST be happy for this guy who worked hard to get where he is. No, they gotta get their civil-war bs into it. sigh.... Can we just put Asian American? I don't think it is noteworthy in Jeremy's biography whether or not it's one china or two china. He's Asian American. American Citizen born and raised in US. If some shit-head can't stomach the word "Taiwanese descent" for political reasons (it's perfectly fine to say someone is of cantonese or beijin descent). I think it' better to just remove the "descent" part, people know the truth. Putting "Chinese OR Taiwanese" descent doesn't make any sense at all. It's ridiculous weasel speak. Pretty sure the star would be ashamed of his people that they are so petty.
See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. "Articles mustn't take sides, but should explain the sides, fairly and without bias." So this is why we mention him being Chinese or Taiwanese descent depending on the point of view. We need to mention "all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." And no we don't just assume people know them.—Chris!c/t 19:50, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

There are 7 words between "American" and "Chinese" and 7 too many. Perhaps this needs to be reworded so people stop getting confused and demanding this be changes. A reasonable person reading this sentence quickly would fail to grasp the key fact the sentence is trying to convey because of the positioning of the qualifier "American".--Jiang (talk) 20:43, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to propose an alternate wording. Perhaps that is the best solution.—Chris!c/t 21:30, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
I propose: "Lin is one of the few Asian Americans in NBA history, and the both the first Chinese American as well as the first Taiwanese American to play in the league." --Jiang (talk) 21:39, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
A little too wordy IMO. What about "Lin is one of the few Asian Americans in NBA history, and is the first Chinese or Taiwanese American to play in the league."—Chris!c/t 22:43, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
"the first Chinese or Taiwanese American" has the potential to be read wrongly as "the first Chinese [person] or Taiwanese American [person]". It's not clear that American is qualified by both "Chinese" and "Taiwanese" instead of by "Taiwanese" only where "Chinese" is free standing not as an adjective but as a noun.--Jiang (talk) 01:10, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Not too hard to fix. "Lin is one of the few Asian Americans in NBA history, and is the first Chinese American or Taiwanese American to play in the league."—Chris!c/t 01:51, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
While there are benefits to brevity, the problem is that this kind of wording can be interpreted as us being indecisive as to whether he is Chinese American or Taiwanese American. This is another issue that has popped up frequently on this talk page. We would want the wording to imply that we intentionally put both of these labels on there, i.e. he is both.--Jiang (talk) 08:39, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
I don't really see that it is us Wikipedia editors being indecisive. Many sources described Lin being Chinese American or Taiwanese American. If anything every source is intentionally being vague/indecisive to avoid stirring controversy. We are just reporting what other reliable sources called him. If you are really concern that readers are unclear, then maybe a hidden note should be inserted asking them to look at the FAQ at the top of this page. In the meantime, we can continue searching for better wording.—Chris!c/t 19:59, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
I prefer the current wording of "first American player in the league to be of Chinese or Taiwanese descent" instead of redundant repeating of American in "he first Chinese American or Taiwanese American to play in the league".—Bagumba (talk) 20:23, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
It is now changed to "Lin is one of the few Asian Americans in NBA history, and the first American of Chinese or Taiwanese descent to play in the league." by User:Jiang. I think it is brilliant. It is clear and simple.—Chris!c/t 01:15, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Its wrong

Its LIN SHU HAO, not lin shu-how — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.97.84.39 (talk) 00:16, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Is there any evidence that he spells it that way? All sources I see say Shu-How (or Shu How). Zagalejo^^^ 01:48, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

When you traslate jeremy lin's name, its LIN SHU HAO. thats the pin yin for his chinese name. don't change it, fine with me. its making you all look bad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.97.84.39 (talk) 03:07, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

All that matters is how Lin himself spells the name. Zagalejo^^^ 03:49, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
"Shu-How" is his legal middle name. If his parents did not use pinyin on his birth certificate and Lin has not changed it, it is not appropriate to "correct" it.—Bagumba (talk) 04:39, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

ok. but can you at least write his chinese name? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.97.84.39 (talk) 23:56, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Underneath the infobox on the right side of the page, there is an extra box with all of that info. Zagalejo^^^ 00:08, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 5 October 2013

"While Lin attributes his rise to fame to God, he has also emphasized the influence of positive role models in his life. He said that it's a big part of why he is in NBA today." Lin has posted this article titled "Jeremy Lin on Positive Role Models: A Big Part of Why I'm in NBA Today" [1] on his own website "http://www.jlin7.com/blogs/news/8013113-jeremy-lin-on-positive-role-models-a-big-part-of-why-im-in-nba-today"

Jesuschristislord7 (talk) 23:27, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Not done: The article already sufficiently recognises his Christian faith. A generic statement that he recognises (unidentified) role models adds nothing. Most people do. The source is his blog on his official website, which is already linked in the external links section. --Stfg (talk) 19:37, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

jeremy lin is a full taiwanese

Resolved
 – Explained in FAQ

I thought taiwan is an independent country that is next to china. Please edit! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.231.235.230 (talk) 02:47, 6 June 2012‎ (UTC)

This has been discussed ad nauseum, and the current text reflects both citations and the consensus of editors. de Bivort 04:07, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
See Q2 in the FAQ at the top of this talk page.—Bagumba (talk)|

Both of his parents hailed from an independent Taiwan. On the taiwan page, in every poll conducted (in a place where answering a question on a poll might be seen by some as a little risky!) the Taiwanese have identified themselves as Taiwanese (and not Chinese). A simple search on the net will throw back numerous results and quotes such as:


"Though Mr. Lin is American, fans in Taiwan will no doubt pay attention where Asian sponsorship money originates from. Many also scrutinize how his heritage is referred to by the international sports media.

Chris Wang, a journalist and author of the basketball blog Taiwan Hoops, said Taiwanese are used to the Chinese claiming their stars: "Whenever a Taiwanese athlete or player or scientist makes his reputation oversees, both China and Taiwan fight for the bragging rights. And definitely Taiwanese think of Jeremy Lin as…a son of Taiwan because his parents came from Taiwan and now Chinese television is making the same claims, saying he's from Zhejiang or some place," he said. "This is crazy but it's normal at the same time, because it's happened so often in the past.""

I think the claim it has been discussed "ad nauseum" is a bit disingenuous. A few lines on a talk page and a small-sample of registered editors does not "a consensus" make! I think there are clearly some who think that not upsetting China (for one reason or another) is more important than getting the facts right (is this an encyclopedia? Yes. Should political/international arguments change facts? No!). Lin has just played in Taiwan (hence the reason for bringing this up at this time), and everywhere is calling it his "homecoming". There is a general misconception that he is Chinese (I actually thought he was myself! I was reading up on the game that was played and saw it mentioned, then I read some of his history and then, as usual when it comes to basketball, I came here to see if I could add anything via an edit). This is an area that Lin himself seems to have avoided weighing into (considering the untold riches he could potentially earn in sponsorship deals, maybe there's a reason he hasn't been to eager to declare against the fastest growing economy in the world?), so I think it is important that Wikipedia correct this misconception. Given the game that's just taken place in Taiwan I'd certainly like to reopen this debate, I expect the media might bring the subject up at some point, which might clarify matters a bit more (although in my eyes it seems pretty clear already, and that is that the "China/Taiwan" identification is incorrect).

As this already exists on the talk page I've resisted the urge to wade in and make a change, but please consider discussing this further. Preferably with sources! Bullblade (talk) 14:21, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Yet another nationality debate

An editor have begun calling Lin Taiwannese-American and was reverted several times. The problem of calling Lin Taiwannese-American is that it is not neutral due to Taiwan's political status. One point of view is that he is Taiwanese descent and has ROC citizenship, thus he is Taiwannese-American. Another point of view is that he is Chinese descent and that Taiwan is not a country, so regardless of ROC citizenship he is Chinese-American. The third point of view is that he was born in USA, thus he is an American plain and simple. I believe the third description is the most neutral since it avoids the dispute altogether. His nationality is clarified is another section. Recall that NPOV requires us to edit from a neutral point of view, which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias.—Chris!c/t 20:36, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Don't know how many editors will it take for the latest edit warrior to stop. We've gone through extensive discussion for the "Taiwanese or Chinese" consensus in the last paragraph on the lede. And I do not understand why ROC citizenship is of any relevance at all, as if he doesn't have it, he isn't of Taiwanese descent. Lin has ROC citizenship and not PRC citizenship simply because the two nationality laws are different regarding dual ("Chinese" and American) citizenship. And having ROC citizenship doesn't make anyone "Taiwanese". Legally all native mainland Chinese are ROC citizens and all native Taiwanese are PRC citizens. But so many rights on both sides do not derive directly from citizenship (including the right to get a passport). Lin is just like any mainland Chinese--a ROC citizen without residency rights in Taiwan. The difference is that due to his parentage, if he applies he'll immediately be accepted, except that he likely won't apply because it'll involve getting drafted for military service. HkCaGu (talk) 22:17, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
Since User:G9mpai seems to be referring to me here, I'd like to say that I'm fine with the first sentence calling him an "American" and not "Taiwanese-American". The main reason I reverted myself was that I wasn't sure if my initial edit summary was correct. Different news articles have said different things, and I didn't feel confident enough to make a decision. I figured I'd wait for someone else to chime in. I can't claim to understand the intricacies of ROC citizenship.
On the subject, should the infobox be listing him as "Taiwanese" in the nationality field? Zagalejo^^^ 00:11, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
I think it should be removed. We have no proof that he has taken any ROC documents. As illustrated above, ROC citizenship eligibility doesn't mean anything, hence "Taiwanese" cannot be correct without residency rights. HkCaGu (talk) 00:27, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

ROC Nationalty Law Article 2 states "A person shall have the nationality of the ROC under any of the conditions provided by the following Subparagraphs: 1. His/her father or mother was a national of the ROC when he/she was born."

By this condition Jeremy Lin automatically obtains ROC citizenship by birth at the same moment he obtains his American citizenship, a fact confirmed by the ROC Minister of Interior. There is no "eligibility" issue here. The Taiwan residency requirements to obtain a ROC Citizenship card is simply a matter of citizenship rights rather than citizenship. As a ROC citizen without residency and citizenship card, Jeremy Lin is unable to exercise his full rights as a ROC citizen (such as voting), but that is irrelevant as far as whether he has ROC citizenship or not. I must correct the above which states that Lin is just like other mainland Chinese - ROC citizen without residency rights in Taiwan. That is simply not true. Under ROC law, Mainland Chinese are those who hold household registration in the mainland and there are special restrictions placed upon them with regards to rights, making it hard for them to obtain documents such as a passport. Lin, while also a ROC citizen without residency rights, is not bound by the same restrictions. He can much easier obtain household registration in Taiwan and get his ROC passport. In terms of ties, ROC beats out PRC by citizenship + lineage versus only lineage. According to Wikipedia's NPOV, facts should be presented proportionally, and hence whatever is represented Lin's ties to ROC should have more emphasis. His ROC citizenship is important because it makes him eligible to represent ROC's national basketball team (Chinese Taipei). Simply stating his Taiwanese descent in the article does not have the same significance and only stating that he is American would exclude the fact that he is eligible to play on the ROC national basketball team. At the minimum, the info box should retain information regarding his ROC citizenship which can be represented as Republic of China, or Taiwanese. Withholding that fact is against Wikipedia's NPOV guidelines G9mpai^^^

  • withholding that so-called fact is not against WP:NPOV. WP:NPOV requires that we put due weight (WP:DUE) on every item in the article. Emphasizing his second citizenship, in the first sentence, when it represents to many editors a digression from neutral POV, is undue weight. This issue is discussed neutrally below. No need for it in the lede. de Bivort 12:29, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

There's a difference between emphasizing and mentioning. Witholding that fact is far from neutral POV. It is a biased attempt to mis/under-represent Jeremy Lin. People reading the article should know that he is eligible to play on the ROC national basketball team because of his ROC citizenship. As per Wikipedia WP:NPOV guidelines: "Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public." What the other editors think is irrelevant when considering due weight of an item when his ROC citizenship is well referenced. G9mpai^^^ —Preceding undated comment added 21:14, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

But the article doesn't withhold anything. Lin's nationality is addressed in later section.—Chris!c/t 02:15, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

If Lin's nationality is addressed in a later section (International Careers) which mention him being both an American citizen and a ROC national. Why is it that only American is listed in the info box? That's inconsistency. So what should readers think when they read the page? In addition, Wikipedia already has a long and well established article on Taiwanese-Americans (which even links to Jeremy Lin's page). How is it that the existence of an entire page dedicated to the subject is accepted, yet the mention of the term to describe him as such (reverse linking) is met with such fierce opposition? Furthermore, I think everyone can agree that for most practical purposes (even here on Wikipedia), Taiwan is synonymous with the ROC. If you search Taiwan on Wikipedia, you get the page on the ROC. So if Lin is a confirmed ROC national, how is it not okay to identify him as a Taiwanese-American? G9mpai (talk) 08:32, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

So here's your twisted logic. ROC is Taiwan and therefore an ROC national is a Taiwanese? You go tell the Mongolian president that he's Taiwanese! HkCaGu (talk) 14:04, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
That's funny because the ROC does not consider Mongolia a part of its territory. When the ROC constitution was formulated and published in 1946, the ROC already recognized Mongolia's independence. So I don't know where you got the idea that I should go tell the Mongolian president that he's Taiwanese. Perhaps you are deluded? Even on the front cover of the ROC passport, Taiwan is included in parenthesis. It means the two are interchangeable and synonymous. One is simply the colloquial term and the other is the official, but they're the same thing. Over and over again you have demonstrated a lack of knowledge of ROC laws and basic political institutions, such as attempting to address the question by referring to the exercise of nationality which cannot happen. I don't think you have any credibility left in this discussion. G9mpai (talk) 20:10, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, whether he is Taiwanese is disputed among many people. So, it is not neutral to call him that.—Chris!c/t 19:29, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Who are these many people? By Wikipedia's own page on Taiwanese American, "Taiwanese Americans (traditional Chinese: 台灣裔美國人) are American citizens of Taiwanese descent." Lin's Taiwanese descent is confirmed and well referenced. So what's the problem? Even if the whole world disputes his Taiwanese descent, it won't change that fact. Facts are independent of opinions. Until Wikipedia removes the page on Taiwanese Americans, Lin is very much qualified to be described under that category. What you guys are advocating may be a consensus, but it clearly goes against Wikipedia's policy and guidelines: Content should be clear, unambiguous and specific. Content should be as concise as possible, and omit needless words. Content should not contradict each other. Lastly, emphasize the spirit of the rule - editors should use common sense. Whether Taiwanese should be considered Chinese is another issue that is related to politics and the answer at this point is simply ambiguous. Taiwanese-American is the most specific term available and it is unambiguous. Saying that Lin is an "American of Taiwanese descent" is adding needless words. There's a term for that description and it's called Taiwanese-American. Lastly, omitting his ROC nationality from the info box, and then mentioning it later on the page is a contradiction. Common sense dictates that if Taiwanese-Americans are Americans of Taiwanese descent, and Jeremy Lin is an American of Taiwanese descent, then he is a Taiwanese-American. Common sense also dictates that if you don't see the nationality listed under the info box, then one would assume it is not true (ex. If you don't see Japanese nationality in Obama's info box, then you assume he doesn't have Japanese nationality). But then the International Careers section correctly identifies him as a ROC national. Again, contradicting common sense. G9mpai (talk) 20:10, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
That is, frankly, your own interpretation and I am sure many people will disagree. It is funny how you call your interpretation fact. I am sorry but in nationality debate there is no such thing as fact because what we think of a person's nationality is heavily influenced by our personal beliefs. Many who consider Lin Chinese-American will take offense of the article calling him Taiwanese-American. Likewise, those who consider Lin Taiwanese-American will take offense of the article calling him Chinese-American. The consensus clearly abides by Wikipedia's policies, namely NPOV, that Wikipedia could not and should not take side. There is no Wikipedia's policy that says content should be unambiguous because many things in this world are ambiguous. Is Australia a continent? We can't answer that definitively. Finally, common sense can't be applied in contentious subjects like nationality. Again, what we think of a person's nationality is heavily influenced by one's personal beliefs. I also disagree with the statement "if you don't see the nationality listed under the infobox, then one would assume it is not true." That is a simplistic assumption. Nationality can be complex and could not be simply and bluntly expressed in the small space given in the infobox. WP:MOSFLAG gives a great example: "Naomi Watts could be said, depending upon context and point of view, to be any or all of: British, English, Welsh, or Australian."—Chris!c/t 22:34, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
There's nothing to contend on Lin's ROC nationality. ROC nationality is a legal term described in the ROC Nationality Law. It is not a broadly defined term that could mean whatever you think it means. Whether others who consider Lin a Chinese-American takes offense has no bearing on the law applying to him. For the record, Wikipedia's policy and guidelines does in fact state content should be unambiguous. Take a look here WP:Policy#content. Since you used Naomi Watts as a "great" example, maybe Wikipedia should apply the example on Lin and omit the nationality info box for him just like for Naomi Watts. It is pathetic that you keep beating around the bush in an attempt to dodge the simple law that "if A = B, and A = C, then B = C". — Preceding unsigned comment added by G9mpai (talk • contribs) 22:53, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
When I refer to Wikipedia policies, I refer to the 5 fundamental principles on Wikipedia:Five pillars and NPOV is one of them. If you think the world operates based the simple laws like "if A = B, and A = C, then B = C," then good for you. But I am afraid the real world is not that simple.—Chris!c/t 23:22, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

For the record: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Edit_war_at_Jeremy_Lin_page. Zagalejo^^^ 20:25, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

(arrived from ANI) Oh, cool, so according to G9mpai here, I'm a citizen of the ROC, since my parents were dual citizens when I was born? That's news to me. Digging deeper...Lin, like me, is likely a national without household registration - essentially, the government considers us citizens even if we don't want to be. I'm not an expert on international law by any means, but this seems more like a legal technicality, and essentially is pointless in practically creating a judgment on anyone's citizenship. Nationality, on the other hand, is much more loosely defined than citizenship, which is evident in the lede of that article. IIRC (it's been a while), Lin considers himself Taiwanese-American, even if many in mainland China like to consider him one of their own - if a source can be found for this, it can be put in the infobox, otherwise leave it out completely (per Naomi Watts). Again, this is independent of his citizenship, which is really quite ambiguous given the whole "two Chinas" situation. Ansh666 05:15, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


(sorry for double-post, this comment is better suited to this section as it is current..)

Both of his parents hailed from an independent Taiwan. On the taiwan page, in every poll conducted (in a place where answering a question on a poll might be seen by some as a little risky!) the Taiwanese have identified themselves as Taiwanese (and not Chinese). A simple search on the net will throw back numerous results and quotes such as:


"Though Mr. Lin is American, fans in Taiwan will no doubt pay attention where Asian sponsorship money originates from. Many also scrutinize how his heritage is referred to by the international sports media.

Chris Wang, a journalist and author of the basketball blog Taiwan Hoops, said Taiwanese are used to the Chinese claiming their stars: "Whenever a Taiwanese athlete or player or scientist makes his reputation oversees, both China and Taiwan fight for the bragging rights. And definitely Taiwanese think of Jeremy Lin as…a son of Taiwan because his parents came from Taiwan and now Chinese television is making the same claims, saying he's from Zhejiang or some place," he said. "This is crazy but it's normal at the same tim I think the claim it has been discussed "ad nauseum" is a bit disingenuous. A few lines on a talk page and a small-sample of registered editors does not "a consensus" make! I think there are clearly some who think that not upsetting China (for one reason or another) is more important than getting the facts right (is this an encyclopedia? Yes. Should political/international arguments change facts? No!). Lin has just played in Taiwan (hence the reason for bringing this up at this time), and everywhere is calling it his "homecoming". There is a general misconception that he is Chinese (I actually thought he was myself! I was reading up on the game that was played and saw it mentioned, then I read some of his history and then, as usual when it comes to basketball, I came here to see if I could add anything via an edit). This is an area that Lin himself seems to have avoided weighing into (considering the untold riches he could potentially earn in sponsorship deals, maybe there's a reason he hasn't been to eager to declare against the fastest growing economy in the world?), so I think it is important that Wikipedia correct this misconception. Given the game that's just taken place in Taiwan I'd certainly like to reopen this debate, I expect the media might bring the subject up at some point, which might clarify matters a bit more (although in my eyes it seems pretty clear already, and that is that the "China/Taiwan" identification is incorrect).

As this already exists on the talk page I've resisted the urge to wade in and make a change, but please consider discussing this further. Preferably with sources! Bullblade (talk) 14:21, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

I am going to refute point by point.
First, Wikipedia is never an international sports media and should not be referred to as such. Our policy dictates that our content has to be neutral. So, we can't pick sides. You said "it is important that Wikipedia correct this misconception". Well, Wikipedia is NOT a platform to correct whatever misconception that you believe existed. WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS says "you might think that since Wikipedia is a popular site and appears high in the search engine rankings, it is a great place to set the record straight and Right Great Wrongs, but that’s not the case". To edit in such a manner is considered Wikipedia:Tendentious editing.
Second, you think that a few lines on a talk page or a small-sample of registered editors does not make "a consensus". Well, unfortunately, this is how consensus on Wikipedia is achieved. WP:CON states that "consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity (not achievable); nor is it the result of a vote. It is a decision-making involves an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's norms." We simply can't have debates reopens every time a new editor comes to the page, and every time they don't bring in any new legitimate arguments but rehash the same talking points that have been discussed in detail previously.
Third, you mention the word fact that many other people have constantly brought up. In nationality debate, there is no such thing as FACT because what we think of a person's nationality is heavily influenced by our personal beliefs. But since you brought that word up, I will talk about facts. Lin is of Chinese descent since his maternal grandmother is originally from Zhejiang, China. This is a FACT that NOBODY can say otherwise. Lin is of Taiwanese descent since his parents grew up in Taiwan. This is also a FACT that NOBODY can say otherwise. Since both are facts, therefore he can be factually referred to as Chinese-American and Taiwanese-American. So, it is not neutral to just called him one way or the other.
And, no, Wikipedia does not care about upsetting China (also, this site is blocked in China so it is clear that Wikipedia already upset China). The fact that Lin has just played in Taiwan is entirely irrelevant to this debate and that everywhere in Taiwan is calling it his "homecoming" makes perfect sense. Of course, Taiwanese will see him as Taiwanese. In fact if Taiwanese sees him as Chinese, it would be quite odd. The fact that Lin himself tried to avoid weighing into his nationality in public, whatever his motivation is, does not really matter. Anyway, Lin himself has said, "You can call me a Taiwanese basketball player, a Chinese basketball player or just a basketball player." This could show that Lin actually does not care about what nationality people liked to call him. He simply wants people to view him as a basketball player.—Chris!c/t 20:29, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

This article is really stupid

This article is full of personal analysis and opinion by Wikipedia editors, and trivia. For example:

"Lin said that he understands Mandarin, though he could use some help speaking it; he can also read and write a little. He took a few Mandarin classes while attending Harvard to try to improve."

"After joining the Knicks in 2012, Lin slept on a couch in his brother's one-bedroom apartment on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, New York City."

"Lin has publicly declared that one of his favorite pastimes is playing the video game Dota 2, having been a fan of its prequel, Defense of the Ancients, since his sophomore year of high school."

There are many more examples. 174.31.189.74 (talk) 09:38, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

They all appear to be verifiable with citations, so you will need to be more specific about why you think it is "personal analysis and opinion". You might have a point about trivial, so feel free to gain consensus on any proposed removals.—Bagumba (talk) 16:41, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I think the article probably reflects the biases and personal idiosyncrasies of the editors. I would guess some editors play video games a lot. Why else would the article spell out that Jeremy Lin plays certain video games? I would guess some editors fixate on race. Why else would the article over-emphasize Jeremy Lin's Chinese ethnicity, with an over-long section dedicated to that topic? The sections concerning basketball seem more or less OK. Much of the rest is long-winded and full of trivia. Overall, the article is way too long.

I am sure there are countless fascinating factoids about Jeremy Lin that could be included in this article. What does Jeremy Lin eat? What's his fashion sense? Which kinds of music does he favor? Was his dorm room messy or clean? Why not include them all? Why are the included trivial factoids any more relevant than the others? If I was to "gain consensus", I would suggest deleting everything that seems trivial, and greatly paring down the section related to Jeremy Lin's race / ethnicity. But I cannot lead that effort. It seems tantamount to trying to keep the tide from coming in.

I think there is a bigger point here. The poor quality of this article is not really the fault of the unpaid editors. I see this same style (load on the trivia) in many, if not most wikipedia articles. wikipedia is a great source of factoids / trivia. When I want to better understand a star trek episode or similar topic, wikipedia is about the first place I look. But it's a poor source of knowledge. I am usually disappointed when I want to understand a subject in depth, as I was trying to do by reading this article. I was genuinely interested to learn more about Jeremy Lin. I learned something, but overall the article seems poorly written, certainly not encyclopedic. 174.31.189.74 (talk) 21:57, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

It'd be no suprise if there is a natural systemic bias. Also, we are all volunteers here, so you get what you pay for—for better or for worse. There is also no deadline to improve things. That said, if you can help improve things, by all means just do it!.—Bagumba (talk) 22:10, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

That is an incredibly weak response. You are ignoring the obvious. Of course, you are to be commended for all the volunteer effort. But the result in this case really stinks. The only way to improve this article is to trim it in size to perhaps about 10% of the current length. It's incredibly full of unneeded details and trivia. I am not going to waste my time trying to edit an article, it's way too stressful, if this is any indication, as here is an extreme example of an incredibly bloated article, and nobody can see it. I had no real intention of continuing these remarks. But I read the article on Steve Kerr, as he was just hired as a coach. BTW, Kerr won five NBA championships. Out of interest, I checked the size - 20,000 bytes. This article on Jeremy Lin has 160,000 bytes! Just for laughs, I checked the size of the article on Michael Jordan, one of the greatest basketball players ever, and with much news outside his basketball career, and certainly many more dramatic plays in his career. It's 120,000 bytes. I love Jeremy Lin. But does he really warrant 33% more space than MJ? If Jeremy Lin is ever really a success, how many megabytes will this article be? What if it turns out that JL has some sexual preference or some other personal difference. There goes another 100,000 bytes. Or what if someone else remarks on his background? Gotta regurgitate all that trivia. Or what if he starts playing another video game? The problem on this particular article is that the inmates (eg, the video game enthusiast who has to document trivial preferences of JL for various video games) are running the asylum. :) It's really pitiful. 71.217.107.82 (talk) 06:27, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Needs updates on Lin's performance

This page miss Lin's performance in 2013-14 NBA playoff games. In the 6 games against Portland Trail Blazers, Lin has the best defense performance among all rockets player, and much improved catch-and-shoot game. (top 20 in c & s percentage among all players in regular season.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hoop4life (talk • contribs) 01:35, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

{Edit semi-protected}} Jeremy did not move to White Plains after Linsanity

"He relocated to a luxury condo in White Plains, New York, after his Knicks contract became guaranteed.[289]"

This is completely false. Please remove this and its associated reference article. He did move off his brother's couch to another apartment downtown. But did not go to White Plains as the article suggested. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alcylu (talk • contribs) 20:02, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 July 2014

Change team to Los Angeles Lakers 71.68.47.10 (talk) 18:49, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to any article. - Arjayay (talk) 19:16, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Trade to LA

It's not a done deal until an identifiable team/league rep makes an official statement. An anonymous source doesn't cut it. See http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2014/07/12/jeremy-lin-trade-houston-rockets-los-angeles-lakers-cap-space/12563435/ which states its not official: "The Houston Rockets have traded point guard Jeremy Lin and a future first-round pick to the Los Angeles Lakers for cash considerations, a person with knowledge of the deal told USA TODAY Sports. The person spoke on the condition of anonymity because the trade has not been made official." Until there is an official statement, WP:BLP should prevail: "We must get the article right." There is no hurry to report "breaking news", just wait for an official announcement.—Bagumba (talk) 09:22, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 October 2014

Please add the category Category:American people of Taiwanese descent to the bottom of this page per the article at http://www.ibtimes.com/jeremy-lin-chinese-or-taiwanese-214102. Thanks! 12.181.158.165 (talk) 20:47, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Not done: The page is already in Category:American sportspeople of Taiwanese descent, which is a subcategory of Category:American people of Taiwanese descent.—Bagumba (talk) 21:41, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Chinese name is wrong

The correct way to spell out the name using the Chinese system called pinyin is LIn Shu Hao, not How. How is American so that is wrong— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mdawglin (talk • contribs) 21:04, 12 April 2015‎ (UTC)

If you are referring to "Jeremy Shu-How Lin" in the lead, it is his legal name, which his parents (or if he was renamed) could have chosen any spelling system they wanted; it does not necessarily have to be "correct".—Bagumba (talk) 01:40, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 June 2015

Jeremy Lin's nationality is American and Taiwanese. In addition to being a U.S. citizen, Lin is by descent through his parents a national of the Republic of China (Taiwan). He is dual nationality.[2][3][4][5] Thus, the right side of the message box of "Nationality" should also add "Taiwanese". 61.224.232.164 (talk) 06:20, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. How to express Lin's nationality has been the subject of the many discussions on this talk page--see Archive 1 and Archive 2. Mz7 (talk) 22:51, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 May 2016

Lin is mentioned in the bestselling book Odd Man Rush: A Harvard Kid's Hockey Odyssey from Central Park to Somewhere in Sweden—with Stops along the Way by Bill Keenan. The two were classmates at Harvard, and Keenan recounts an interaction he had with Lin in the Harvard training center when both athletes were receiving treatment for injuries.

327binder (talk) 16:57, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Not done for now: Was this interaction significant to Lin's life? Otherwise, WP:POPCULTURE advise that references are usually not mentioned.—Bagumba (talk) 22:15, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 July 2016


team: Brooklyn Nets Theboxingchicken (talk) 15:42, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

 Done - by another - Arjayay (talk) 13:34, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Sections are too big and cumbersome

it's not necessary to write down a game by game analysis of Lin's seasons. Also i feel the of court section has grown too big. too many quotes. i wouldn't be surprised if i found out all of Lin's quotes are in the section. lol. SWF88 (talk) 20:04, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

I agree. The amount of detail put into this article is WAY too much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:E10D:100:EDCE:FC31:2A92:EED9 (talk) 18:24, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 December 2016

Lin credits a big part of why he is able to play in NBA to the positive role models around him. “For me, I know for a fact if I didn’t have certain people in my life telling me what to do, what not to do, if I didn’t have positive role models in my life, who knows where I’d be or what I’d be?” said Lin. http://www.gospelherald.com/articles/48231/20130529/jeremy-lin-on-positive-role-models-a-big-part-of-why-im-in-nba-today.htm TGH Gospel (talk) 18:40, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. —Skyllfully (talk | contribs) 05:18, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 April 2017

I am requesting to edit this page for a college assignment. I want to add personal info from valid sources of Jeremy Lin from his own quotes. Please change this article because it needs more information about Jeremy Lin and what he has been through as a person and not just in his basketball career. My sources are from ESPN articles and databases like Britannica Encyclopedia and EBSCO host pages. Jayhreich (talk) 18:13, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. The page will not be unprotected but specific changes can be made if you identify them and sources that support them. General Ization Talk 18:16, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 April 2017

I am trying to edit this page because it is saying Lin is Chinese descent which he is not. He is only Taiwanese and American. The article only give his basketball life but does not give his personal life that Lin opens up in a lot of articles. Jayhreich (talk) 18:26, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. General Ization Talk 18:27, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Also, please note, from the article (and reliably sourced): "His parents, Lin Gie-Ming and Shirley Lin, emigrated from Taiwan to the United States in the mid-1970s, settling first in Virginia before moving to Indiana, where they both attended universities. They are dual nationals of Taiwan and the U.S. Lin's paternal family are Hoklo people from Beidou, Changhua, Taiwan, while his maternal grandmother emigrated to Taiwan in the late 1940s from Pinghu, Zhejiang, in mainland China." This supports the current information that he is of Chinese as well as Taiwanese descent. General Ization Talk 18:30, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Also see Q2 in the Q&A at the top of this page, which addresses this specific topic. General Ization Talk 18:32, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 April 2017

Jayhreich (talk) 18:37, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. General Ization Talk 18:42, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

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Lin traded to Atlanta Hawks

Needs to be updated to show that Lin was traded to Atlanta Hawks. See article here: https://www.ajc.com/sports/basketball/report-hawks-acquire-lin-trade-with-nets/CtW5YkLx8LqjcsolweOcxL/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.146.220.71 (talk) 15:25, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Team history missing Brooklyn Nets years

Listing shows he's been with the Atlanta Hawks since 2016 but he was only recently traded to them from the Brooklyn Nets, who he played for 2016-2018 per: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/linje01.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nko321 (talk • contribs) 18:32, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

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I am also curious about the Chinese descent. The article says his parents moved from Taiwan, so it seems that he is Taiwanese. Who in his immediate family came from China that would put him as Chinese descent? MontessoriMatt (talk) 12:29, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 June 2019

In the section "Early Life" first paragraph, remove "They are dual nationals of Taiwan and the U.S." or change it to "They hold both Taiwan and U.S. passport."

"They are dual nationals of Taiwan and the U.S." is in correct. Taiwan is not a nation. It is one of the provinces of P.R.China, and China doesn't allow dual citizenship now. Portiaflower (talk) 06:27, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. —KuyaBriBriTalk 15:37, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Taiwanese nationality

In recent edits, "Taiwanese" was added as nationality in the infobox based on a citation that says he is a Taiwanese American. However, the term is used for Americans of Taiwanese descent; it does not imply that he necessarily has dual citizenship with Taiwan.—Bagumba (talk) 05:32, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Which is more relevant, play with Ducks or Raptors?

As updated, the introductory paragraph makes no mention of the fact that Lin was a member of the reigning NBA Champions, the Toronto Raptors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.175.220.10 (talk) 21:28, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Excessive detail

This article is too detailed. It's just loaded up. For example, the article doesn't need to include:

  • The fact that in 2012, NBA trainer David Thorpe (whoever that is) said that comments from Lin's then-coach "likely gave Lin the confidence to continue to play aggressively...";
  • The fact that on November 23, 2012, Lin "shot 6-for-12, making half of his shots for the first time in eight games, and breaking a personal five-game drought without a 3-pointer";
  • The fact that on March 21, 2016, Charlotte (with Lin) became "the first team to score seven points or fewer in the opening quarter and come back to win since 2008";
  • The fact that in 2019, Lin "initially struggled emotionally with whether he deserved his championship, but later embraced his contributions to the team..."

This kind of stuff makes the article sound more like a diary or journal than like an encyclopedia article. It also makes it too long and not very readable. SunCrow (talk) 03:43, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

I trimmed the March 21 part, which also had some WP:COPYVIO issues.—Bagumba (talk) 06:37, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
Re: the emotional struggle part, I'd trim but keep some mention of it. It provides context to his "rock bottom" comment, which received coverage many days after, which is a good measuring stick to filter out WP:NOTDIARY, routine coverage concerns.—Bagumba (talk) 06:37, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
Re: Nov 23, it was his first game against NY after leaving, and he had been in a slump. I'd say keep, or at least capture he broke out of a slunmp. If it was any other game, it'd be trivial.—Bagumba (talk) 06:41, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
Yo, SunCrow, I feel the way Bagumba does. You've made some good cuts, but I think you cut a bit too much at times.
Looking here[1], you cut "Given his reduced role in the postseason, Lin stated that he initially struggled emotionally with whether he deserved his championship, but later embraced his contributions to the team and affirmed that he did deserve it, noting that all players on a roster contribute to the team in some way." Man, his feelings on this seem like something worth documenting.
Looking here[2], you cut "Throughout the season, though, Lin still placed pressure on himself to live up to the expectations from Linsanity." More feelings of inadequacy. Seems like something to keep. You also cut "Lin and Harden were both attacking players offensively, but each struggled defensive." A player's offensive or defensive talent or struggles are things we include. You also removed "He was the first Rocket to notch a triple-double off the bench since Cedric Maxwell in 1988." I know it seems like trivia to you, but it seems like a milestone to me. You also removed "He shot 57.8 percent off of drives during the season, exceeded only by LeBron James (63.8 percent) in the league." Another milestone.
Personally, it was refreshing reading this article and seeing that its college career and professional career sections aren't just full of stats, which anyone can slap together. If I wanted to just read stats, I'd go to a website especially for that. This basketball player Wiki article actually reads like an encyclopedia. However, if it keeps being cut and is eventually nothing but a stat fest, I think it should lose its GA tag. Halo Jerk1 (talk) 11:28, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
Halo Jerk1, I continue to believe that the article was way too long and overly detailed before I made my recent edits. I believe that it is substantially improved now. In response to your points:
-I don't believe that a person's feelings are necessarily worth including in his/her Wikipedia page;
-The sentence on Lin and Harden was just awkward (what does it mean to say that Lin and Harden are "attacking players offensively"?);
-I have no objection to you re-adding the Cedric Maxwell triple-double sentence. If there are other stats I removed that you and/or others believe are significant, I am open to them being re-added;
-Statistics like a player's field percentage on drives to the basket are exactly the kinds of details that shouldn't be on the page. This is not a mainstream basketball statistic. If we start getting into that level of detail, there are literally dozens of player evaluation metrics that could start getting loaded in. At that point, only NBA stats aficionados will want to read this page. I don't know where the stopping point is;
-I agree with you that the page should not become a "stat fest";
-I don't intend to make any further cuts to the page.
Hope that helps. SunCrow (talk) 15:07, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
@SunCrow, agreed that a person's feelings are not necessarily worth including in a person's Wikipedia page. What I'm gettin' at is that we routinely include people's feelings (thoughts about issues or topics) in their Wiki pages. We judge what's relevant (or due) to keep and what ain't. I think the two parts I listed are relevant to include, but it's not something I'm motivated to argue much over. Agreed that including obscure stats should, for the most part, be avoided, but the drives stat we're discussing is something that is or was "exceeded only by LeBron James (63.8 percent) in the league." It's not easy to match or surpass him. So that's a stopping point. Thanks for having listened to my concerns. Halo Jerk1 (talk) 12:09, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Halo Jerk1, thank you for listening to my concerns as well. SunCrow (talk) 01:03, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Split article?

The editing guideline WP:TOOBIG states that articles with more than 100,000 kB of readable prose should "almost certainly" be divided. This article contains 196,326 kB of total content. While a sizeable chunk of the article consists of references, it would still seem that the article is too long. I propose that a "Linsanity" article--focusing on Lin's star turn with the New York Knicks, the ensuing cultural phenomenon, Lin's public image, and racial issues connected with Linsanity--be split off from this article. What do others think? SunCrow (talk) 17:11, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

The readable prose size is only 47k, so the size itself is OK. That being said, I think Linsanity could be a standalone article.—Bagumba (talk) 17:26, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Thank you, Bagumba. Could you tell me how you arrived at the readable prose size figure? SunCrow (talk) 01:15, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Click on the link in my above response; it mentions some options.—Bagumba (talk) 01:17, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 December 2020

Jeremy Lin plays for the Santa Cruz Warriors of the NBA G-league 173.75.33.101 (talk) 22:12, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Also refer to WP:SPORTSTRANS.—Bagumba (talk) 01:42, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Brothers

Acechen0 (talk) 23:12, 13 February 2022 (UTC) Do Jeremy Lin's brothers also play professional basketball overseas?

@Acechen0: Questions about a topic are best handled at Wikipedia:Reference desk. That said, biographies might list information related to one's family in a section like "Personal life". Regards.—Bagumba (talk) 00:55, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

for the record, File:Time Warner Cable Arena Jeremy Lin Painting 2015.jpg could have been removed in September 2020 and would hence cause less damage to the copyright owner of the poster but deletion was prevented by User:Mackensen.--RZuo (talk) 20:53, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

  1. ^ http://www.gospelherald.com/article/ministries/48231/jeremy-lin-on-positive-role-models-a-big-part-of-why-im-in-nba-today.htm#.UaujxWT71z0
  2. ^ Nancy Liu (February 16, 2012), "Jeremy Lin has automatic Taiwanese citizenship: MOFA" Central News Agency
  3. ^ 簡太郎：林書豪是中華民國國民中央社2012年6月7日
  4. ^ "內政部：林書豪有中華民國國籍". 蘋果日報. 2012-06-06. Retrieved 2012-06-06.
  5. ^ "一點問題都沒有　內政部：林書豪百分百是中華民國國民". ETtoday. 2012-06-06. Retrieved 2012-06-06.
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