Talk:Jay (disambiguation)

On 16 March 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Jay. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Requested move 16 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. As is often the case with questions of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, editors here have good faith disagreements about how to weigh and assess the two major ptopic criteria, and particularly to what degree topics which are only marginally associated with the base name (such as Toronto Blue Jays or Jaywalking) should be considered. (closed by non-admin page mover) Colin M (talk) 17:19, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Jay (disambiguation) → Jay
Jay → Jay (bird)

– No clear primary topic, the bird has 5,872 views but the given name has 1,668, the South Korean singer has 1,389, the place in Florida has 583, the album has 520, the place in Oklahoma has 400, the place in Vermont has 309, the place in New York has 254, the place in Maine has 211, the place in Herefordshire has 23, the locomotive has 4, the South African singer has 3, the French singer has 2, The Dumping Ground character has 1 and the View Askewniverse character has 1. J, the letter has 22,526, Joint (cannabis) has 8,953, Jay-Z has 225,237, Toronto Blue Jays has 18,332 and Jays Foods has 1,520.[[1]]. Google and Images mainly returns the bird but Books doesn't. In terms of usage the views don't indicate a clear primary topic even if those in the 2nd list were only occasionally "Jay" and some of the other uses like the given name, the letter etc also have long-term significance, possibly more. Crouch, Swale (talk) 22:47, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 01:21, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose ~~Comment~~: What I'm taking from this is that, of all the things actually called Jay, the most viewed, by quite some distance, is the bird. YorkshireExpat (talk) 18:50, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Commnet would Jay be the primary topic of jaybird or jay bird ? Jay bird (disambiguation) -- 65.92.246.142 (talk) 02:56, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It seems because those terms only refer to the Blue jay even though Jay is also a bird. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:52, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as the primary topic by longterm significance. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 11:24, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The bird is definitely the primary topic by both long-term significance and by getting far more views than the other topics. SilverTiger12 (talk) 21:09, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. "No clear primary topic"? Even though the current one has three times the views of the next topic? Huh. MeegsC (talk) 08:57, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@MeegsC: Yes especially when you take into account some of the uses like the letter name etc. In terms of usage compared with the bird's 5,872 views everything else called "Jay" has 5,368 though the US places may use the state as the common name. When you look at things like the letter, jaywalking, Jay-Z and the joint even if these were only occasionally called "Jay" you would have a negative number. In terms of long-term significance the letter and joint also have this, I just don't see a clear primary topic by either criteria. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:38, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Crouch, Swale: I very much doubt that anyone searching 'Jay' expects to get Jay-Z or jaywalking. That's just seems a bit silly. Of the things actually called 'Jay' the bird is way out in front. YorkshireExpat (talk) 20:38, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree not many people will expect Jay-Z, Jaywalking or even J, the letter (name) but as I mentioned the views of the bird v all the other things called "Jay" is quite close so even if Jay-Z, Jaywalking J were called "Jay" 0.3% of the time you would have a negative number. And yes the given name also has long-term significance, when the average person things of "Jay" I'd say the letter, bird and given name are likely to be first and the bird may be the last of the 3. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:14, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well there you go then. The given name is a much less viewed topic than the bird, and you would call the article for the letter 'J', not 'Jay'. So bird it is. YorkshireExpat (talk) 21:40, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I haven't looked in detail here, but the pageviews reported by the nom provide a very strong indication that there is no primary topic: the bird gets about 52% of the views in the first list, but that excludes some entries (like the surname) and many significant topics for which "Jay" is an alternative name (nom's second list); Jaywalking, for example, is the the fourth most clicked on link from the dab page [2]. Any meaningful pageview estimates will assign significantly less than half of the total to the bird. – Uanfala (talk) 12:38, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've never even heard anyone refer to "Jaywalking" as "Jay". That should not even be on the page, frankly. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 07:42, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per detailed and well-researched nomination as well as per Ortizesp and Uanfala. There are 28 entries listed upon the Jay (disambiguation) page with no indication that the three-letter name of the bird holds such an immense position in the English-speaking world's consciousness that it overwhelms the combined notability of the remaining 27 entries, especially in view of the fact that there is already a more-specifically titled dab page with 31 entries and a more-specific WP:PRIMARYTOPIC — Blue Jay (disambiguation) as well as still another related dab page — Jay Bird — which has 25 entries — and yet no primary topic. Thus, it does not seem intuitive for the Jay Bird dab page to have no primary topic, but for the less-specific Jay (disambiguation) page to have the bird as the primary topic. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 23:58, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom and particularly per excellent analysis by Uanfala. BD2412 T 05:29, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The bird is the primary topic. No one searching for jaywalking, Jay-Z or the Toronto Blue Jays would do so by searching for jay. And again, page views alone do not make a primary topic and these repeated RMs that simply regurgitate page views with no further analysis get tiresome. Finally, these RMs should be talking place at the talk page of the impacted article per WP:RSPM, not the disambiguation. Calidum 19:03, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I provided a list of views of things called just "Jay" of which the bird only just gets more than the others combined, I then provided a list of things that are or may at least sometimes be called "Jay(s)" some of which get significantly more views which I provided some metric that even if they were only rarely called "Jay(s)" the bird would get less than the others combined, no one or at least not be is simply assuming/stating by listing the views that they are usually called "Jay", this is normal and common isn't it to include other pages to add further evidence when of things called just by the ambiguous term the current PT barely gets more than the others combined? Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:46, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Just two minor points. One, this is not a single page move (so WP:RSPM is not what you want), it's a request for two moves (WP:RMPM), and that can be placed on one of the talk pages concerned. The instructions don't specify which, and from what I've seen so far it's acceptable to choose either. However, for RMs involving change of primary topic, the disambiguation page is in my opinion the most suitable place as the proposal has no relevance for the topic of the article currently occupying the primary title, but has to do with the relationship between this topic and other topics with the same name (which is sort of what dab pages are about). The second point: you don't have to include Jaywalking, etc: even among the core set of topics that no-one would contest are known as "Jay", the pageviews are indicative of the absence of a primary topic. Still, I don't think that all of the other articles should discarded; the Toronto Blue Jays, for example, are often referred to as just "the Jays", so a reader may conceivably use that term to search for them. Jaywalking, on the other hand, may seem like an inconceivable destination for readers landing on the dab page, but the fact that its link there is consistently among the ones that receive the most clicks shows otherwise. – Uanfala (talk) 22:39, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - I think if a RM's motivation is only for disambiguation reasons then the RM should go on the page benefiting from the RM. I've always followed this rule, see Talk:Horncastle#Requested move 19 October 2018, the only exception I can think of is Talk:Loddington, Leicestershire#Requested move 20 July 2018 but that was more or less because I was probably thinking no PT and there's not been a consensus to say otherwise to say where they must be held. Think of it as the bird being moved away is a result/byproduct rather than being the reason which is to have the DAB at the base name. If the discussion is that there may be no primary topic and that the bird may need a better title anyway I'd host it on the article like Talk:Isle of Mull#Requested move 27 May 2019 where I was saying the island needed a better title and the island may not be primary for "Mull". Going back to the views I'd agree with Calidum in that I've never heard of "Jaywalking" being called "Jay" but the views provided by Uanfala does provide evidence for taking it into account slightly and the article does discuss where the "Jay" part comes from. My most important entry from my 2nd list is the letter J who's name is "Jay" and clearly has more long-term significance and is at least commonly said this way, see Talk:Double U (DJ)#Requested move 24 February 2020 for example. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:30, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - excluding WP:PTM it's still the bird Red Slash 21:42, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.