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Archive 1

Requested move closed 15 October 2005

This move is to undo a move made by a lone user without consulting the comunnity. Java was moved to Java (disambiguation) and a new Java article was created as a #REDIRECT to Java programming language. As the programming language itself is named after the Java coffee that is named after the Java (island), Java should not redirect to Java programming language (as Nike does not #redirects to Nike,_Inc., nor Nirvana #redirects to Nirvana (band)) Abu Badali 20:11, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

Discussion.

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Java should point to coffee.

Java should point to Island.


  • Emphatically against solitary users creating redirects and culturally inappropriate decisions that smell of lack of NPOV. Etymologically the original place/item stays as the starting point - ie Java the island as the source of the chain of derivatives - Java programming language is well down the food chain!User:SatuSuro 15:41, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Java should be about the island. It's a huge, densely populated island. The programming language can be referenced in a link at the top, as can the disambiguation page. See python for inspiration. --jacobolus (t) 03:55, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Strongly Agree: C points to the letter, ruby, points to the gem, and lisp to a speech defect. Since both C and lisp are both as important programing languages as Java, it is hard to see why the exception should be made. True, I think Wikipedia contributors are perhaps more likely to search for the programming language, but, if Wikipedia is to become a universal reference tool, I think the folks using it are more likely to search for the island. I mean if say Sun comes up with the next hot language, and calls it Oahu, do you really think it would be appropriate to have the Oahu page pointed some place else other than the island? And Java is an island of 124 million people, while Oahu had yet to break a million (and hopefully wont) --VonWoland 03:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Java should point to programming language.

  • I disagree that the Java article should be the island. I am supporting only the original proposal at the top. I regular dab Java and if you now make it the island, I will probably abandon this task as it will be even more arduous to deal with. Through my dab experience, the language or platform is referred to about 65%, the island about 30% and whatever else 5%. BTW, the language was not directly named after the island. RedWolf 05:13, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
  • I strongly disagree: Java, in a Internet environment, is more known as a programming language. According to me, should this page not to be a disambiguation one, it should instead contain the article about the language. --Angelo 19:13, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Support Java the language is best known, however this would be very confusing to someone looking for Java(island) or Java(coffee). With the number of pages listed here it should be the first page for Java. please note, i do NOT support the artical about the island getting the first page. T-rex 03:03, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Given the number of pages which link to the varius Java pages, attention should be noted that a big majority of the links within Wikipedia link to the programming subject. There are about 700 links to the Java (island) page, about 1500 to the Java programming language page, and 530 to the JavaScript page; no other page of those listed on the disambiguation page links to more than 100. Since JavaScript isn't really Java, I would say that the page Wikipedians seem to want when they do Java is Java programming language.Eli Falk 10:31, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Java should point to disambig.

  • I believe Java should point to the disambiguation page. I would say much more than a few users (as cited by RedWolf) are looking for the language when they type in Java. Besides the wealth of developers out there (check forum.java.sun.com), a large percentage of high schoolers has to take this. Plus, there are those end users that are curious about Java from seeing it so much on their computers. As to the point of "the island is the origin of the name": That claim isn't necessarily valid. (I'm pretty sure there's no official stance on that, and it may even be an acronym.) Further, does it really matter what the origin is? Shouldn't it be what the most likely search that gets the automatic redirect (if any)? I'm not saying make Java go straight to the language, but I do think we should give both sides the benefit of the doubt and direct to the disambiguation page. There's my two cents. --ElAmericano 00:24, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
We do know that java is not an acronym. Java is named after a coffee shop, that is nammed after the coffee, which is named after the island. That said I agree that it should be as disambiguation page(as I already stated above^). --T-rex 21:58, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Discision

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. Ryan Norton T | @ | C 01:10, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

More discussion, after the "discision"

  • I think the policy at Python is best. At the top:
This article is about the python snake. For the programming language, see Python programming language. For other uses, see Python (disambiguation).
Similarly, Java is the Island. Java in any other encyclopedia will first discuss the island. If you polled non-programmers, the island would come up more, and the programming language is only more popular because Wikipedia in general overemphasizes computer/technology topics. Java should refer to the island. If for no other reason than to respect the 130 million inhabitants. --jacobolus (t) 03:43, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Also note: about 7 out of 12 people (8/13 including me) who have voted at this page think it should go to the island page. That smells like consensus to me, or at least a majority. Before the "discision", it was 7 out of 10. --jacobolus (t) 03:49, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I didn't understand the "discision". There was a consensus!
Also, I have a point agaisnt ElAmericano opinion: "As to the point of "the island is the origin of the name": That claim isn't necessarily valid.". I would say it is. My rational is that the "most likely search" (as ElAmericano said) is something that changes over time and and may be difficult to state in some cases. "What the origin is" doesn't changes and is usually well-known. For instance, supose a new Boy-band called Zeus comes into existance and becomes extremmaly popular. Are we going to have to #Redirect Zeus there and create Zeus (greek godness)? Or would it be wiser to create something like Zeus (boyband) and but dab notices on Zeus? Best regards, --Abu Badali 16:22, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
  • We'd probably turn Zeus into a DAB page and have Zeus (deity) and Zeus (band) listed prominently on it. We prioritise indexing of information here by how commonly someone will be searching for it, not by "what came first". Please see Ran and notice that the goddess Rán doesn't take precedence over everything else on that page. — Estarriol talk 09:31, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I use Java as a programming language, but a link to the island is more important in my mind. For a start, it's been around a lot longer. More importantly, it is more widely known, with the programming language being more specialised. The current setup of lists of links with geography first, then programming, suits me.Stephen B Streater 18:58, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
  • How about reversing the order atleast. AFAI understand, most hits to Java is for the 'programming language'. I'm going to reverse the order. Please do revert, if you can substantiate with a valid reason --kkailas 16:33, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm againt reverting the order. The reasons are the same. Java is (fisrt) an island then (second) the coffe from this island then (thrid) a programing laguage/platafform/etc named as such because (arrogant?) programmers like drinking coffe. --Abu Badali 01:57, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

This article should point to the island and this should not be under a qeustion. I am wandering where is the frontier of programmers' arogancy... --millosh (talk (sr:)) 20:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

This is a Java programmer, and this Java programmer thinks the main Java page should go to the island. --Chris (talk) 18:30, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I was very surprised that Java didn't link directly to the island. (Also that the island page didn't have a link to the disambig). IMO, there seems to be a rough consensus for that style. I there any policy against a new RfM? Eluchil404 00:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Information in Wikipedia is organised to make it as convenient as possible for a reader who is searching for information. Without knowing how many readers are searching for each meaning of a word, we can only guess, and use anecdotal data like web searches. Every web search engine I've typed "Java" into so far, ignoring paid adverts, has come back with Java technology as the top result, and often the dominating factor in the top ten results — and this is even given that there's just been an earthquake on the island and it's hot in the news. The anecdotal evidence suggests that most people who are searching for information on Java here will be looking for the technology, not the island. With respect to everyone here and all the residents of the island, I think the strongest argument for change would be to increase the precedence of the Java technology, but I'd quite frankly prefer if we just left it as it is, as that's useful to everyone. I think everyone coming here will reach there destination quickly, and that's how the encyclopedia is supposed to work. Incidentally, I don't think there's any consensus at all, I think a lot of people who could comment are leaving it alone as supporting anything but the island seems to be an invitation to be flamed on this page. Cheers. — Estarriol talk 09:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Given that there are some 250 million people in Indonesia, for 99.9%+ of whom Java means the island, this argument will only hold while Internet access in Indonesia remains very limited. Do we want to name articles based on which countries have decent network infrastructure? -- Danny Yee 03:10, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes, we should name articles based on how many people are looking for them. Should the number of people searching for information on the island largely outweigh those looking for the programming language, of course we should change it to going straight to the island - and this would be the case whether this was due to the language going out of use, more indonesians having internet access or whatever. This is simply about the ease of use of this encyclopedia for its current users. When those change, we'll change to match it. We shouldn't penalise current users of the encyclopedia for those who may use it in the future. — Estarriol talk 08:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, do a sample survey of all the people you know (or imagine doing one). Unless you only associate with programmers, the snake/island/gem win out over the programming language. Programmers are disproportionately likely to create web sites, but they don't make up more than a tiny fraction of users of the web or of Wikipedia. In this regard, the Google searches for python/java/ruby/etc are not an accurate reflection of what people are looking for. -- Danny Yee 12:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't know of a single person who is familar with the island. There's only a couple people I know who might know that there exists an island called Java.--Prosfilaes 06:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
You are talking about one of the most desly poulated places on earth! If you combined the populations of New York and California, and then doubled it, and then added the population of California again, you would still have less people than in Java. This is not some obscure island in some obscure sea. If you don't know a "single person who is familar with the island," maybe you all should read the Java page, and become familiar. I am not trying to be flippant or disrespectful, but I have observed my fellow Americans woeful ignorance of geography firsthand. The only people who can name the capital of Canada are the die-hard hockey fans. This sad state of affairs should not be reflected in Wikipedia. --VonWoland 06:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I live in Australia, which is closer to Java than the United States or Europe, so that may explain the difference. It's possible my friends have more geographical knowledge, too... -- Danny Yee 06:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I wouldn't go so far as to say that people I know don't know about the island, but the people I know (discounting programmers) all know the language first. Doesn't the fact that we're having this discussion demonstrate that it's an ambiguous term and should lead to a DAB page? — Estarriol talk 09:40, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't think my non-IT friends and family could name any programmning languages... they'd probably recognise BASIC, but that'd be about it. -- Danny Yee 12:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Java has a population of over 100 million! I think having it displaced by a disambiguation page just because of a programming language says something about the background of most Wikipedians (see Countering Systematic Bias). We should follow the approach of Python and Ruby - I don't see that as programming languages go Java is drastically more important than Python, while an island with 120 million inhabitants is significantly more important than a snake taxon or a precious stone. Is there any conceivable way we'd be having this discussion if the island in question were Japan or Antarctica, no matter how popular a programming language with the same name became? -- Danny Yee 02:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Yes, if there was anything that received a similar number of encyclopedia "hits" that had the same name. Be it a programming language, band name, type of fruit or car. And, incidentally, Java is a more widely used language than Python. I could understand why people might be offended if "Java" went straight to the language, but going to a DAB page is hardly an "insult", it's just reflects how often terms are searched for. — Estarriol talk 07:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
So if most people searching for Python are interested in Monty Python, that should be the main python article? I'm not convinced more Internet users know about the programming language than about the island, in any event. I work in IT, but I reckon if I asked everyone I knew, more of them would associate Java with the island than with a programming language. And if I didn't work in IT, there'd be no competition. -- Danny Yee 13:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The Monty Python page should be at Monty Python. But, yes, if more people come here searching for the languages than search for the gem or the snake, then that's where the pages should go?--Prosfilaes 06:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
If this proposal to have the island's article at Java doesn't get up, I've half a mind to propose that Manhattan be used for the cocktail. When I worked in bars over here I never heard Manhattan used in any other context, and I can only guess that a majority of those searching are thirsty programmers in need of information on how to mix this tipple of choice to get them through another long night of debugging someone else's code. People who actually live in Manhattan presumably don't need to look it up anyway. </facetiousness>--cjllw | TALK 08:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Estarriol's strategy, of typing into a search engine and seeing what the top result is, is not a good one. Search engine optimization is big business, and I would guess a lot more Java-Programming companies are willing to pay for high-rated matches than Java-island companies. jnestorius(talk) 17:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Revert of rdir from Java (island) to Java

I've reverted the recent (16 June '06) change which involved replacing the text of the [[Java {island)]] article with a redirect to Java, and the replacement there of its former disambig page format with text taken from that on the island. While I don't necessarily disagree about the intent to have the island's article at Java, with other meanings at Java (disambiguation), a copy and paste exercise is not the way to go about it. If it is to be retitled, then it should be done by moving the pages, to preserve the respective edit histories and associated talk pages. It should also probably be nominated for moving first (or again) via the WP:RM process, to see if there is consensus for such an arrangement. It will have to go through the WP:RM process in any case since it will require administrator action to move the pages (if that is the outcome), as both have non-trivial edit histories.--cjllw | TALK 00:27, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

For the whole world

We're writing an encyclopedia for the whole world, not just for IT workers. If we slant it so that it's more useful for IT workers and less useful for everyone else, we may gain some usability in the short-term, but at the expense of our long term goals. We have poor coverage of Java as it is, so the last thing we want is to risk putting off Javanese contributors. -- Danny Yee 07:15, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Some numbers

At some point this year, the population of Java will probably exceed that of Japan... There are probably more people living in Java than have ever even heard of the programming language Java. -- Danny Yee 01:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, not to be racist, but much of Java is fairly poor and probably without Internet access. (Feel free to reprimand/lynch me if I'm wrong). And we're forgetting about the slang term for coffee; that's probably more well known than the island. I just think we'd be making more people happy if we defaulted to a disambig. Mr. Lefty Talk to me! 01:58, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
"Well known" to whom? User:SatuSuro 02:08, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
People... Mr. Lefty Talk to me! 02:19, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Are the 250 million inhabitants of Indonesia not "people"? There are quite likely more people in Indonesia with Internet access than have ever heard of Java as a programming language. IT workers are *vastly* overrepresented among Wikipedia editors (at the last Sydney meetup I went to, I think every single person present worked in IT or had an IT background). -- Danny Yee 02:59, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
It's probably a matter of dialect, but no one I know (in Sydney Australia) uses "Java" as a general term for coffee; I suspect a lot of them wouldn't even recognise that use of the word. Was it originally naval slang? (I'll check the OED.) -- Danny Yee 02:59, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't think anyone outside of the USA (perhaps Canada) uses Java for coffee, anyway it is clearly slang based upon the Island. If your using for coffee then it's because of the island and you probably know why you say it, so you know the island. Jooler 09:26, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. --Philip Baird Shearer 20:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Requested move (2) June 16, 2006

I relaunched the request for a move of the article since discussions were still going on.

Add #Support followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

Java should point to Island

  1. Support. The most relevant is the article on the island. Java (island) should be renamed to Java and the information on Java should be moved to Java (disambiguation). The programming language has a short history in comparison with the island Java and Wikipedia should not have a bias towards computer science (Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_Systemic_Bias_Open_Tasks#Displaced_articles). Brz7 00:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  2. Support for the same reasons. 167.7.39.139 00:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  3. Support see my comment above (after 2 edit conflicts) Eluchil404 00:38, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Note that this would in fact be *better* for people looking for Java (programming language) than the current situation where Java is a disambiguation page with the programming language the 10th item listed. -- Danny Yee 00:28, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
  4. Support. Java is an island, period. There's a coffee named after the island. This coffe is so popular that a programming language was named after it. --Abu Badali 00:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  5. Support per Abu. —Khoikhoi 02:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  6. Support, as long as the articles & associated talk pgs are moved so that edit histories are preserved.--cjllw | TALK 05:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  7. Strong support. We're not talking about a small obscure island here, and there are precedents with python, ruby, lisp and c. -- Danny Yee 06:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • However, I have no problem with the disambiguation header at the top of Java having a direct link to Java (programming language) as well as a link to the disambiguation page. -- Danny Yee 11:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  8. Strong support Let's stop the insanity! That this is a debate at all is embarassing. Should the article on China point to the pottery, or the disambiguation page? --VonWoland 06:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  9. Strong support There's enough concession to geographically biased and challenged persons in this project already - the island came a long time earlier than the It term or the coffee.-- User:SatuSuro 09:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC) - also "well known" is used as a defence of the alternative directions, someone needs to point out that this is an encyc - since when was that criteria used for constructing an encyc - and just because someone says that - it depends upon their small world - not the rest of the world! User:SatuSuro 00:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC) - to consume so much time and energy on debating with geographically and experiential challenged editors is so damaging to the integrity of wikipedia User:SatuSuro 10:07, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment What I think is more damaging to the integrity of Wikipedia is personal attacks, hence the stong policy of Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia.--Prosfilaes 17:58, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment Geographically biased and challenged persons - is not specifically directed at any particular person in this debate but at the tendency at a collective level of those with a limited experience of knowledge to clog up decision making in prcoesses such as this. Claims to authority over knowledge about a particular subject, or generalisations made from personal points of view are in the long term more damaging to wikipedia - see Julius Kusuma's comments below about a forward looking view when wiki _may_ have a broader readership rather than present.User:SatuSuro 02:07, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment You're helping make this personally hostile. I see no other way to read "at the tendency at a collective level of those with a limited experience of knowledge to clog up decision making in prcoesses such as this" then as an attack on all those who disagree with, one that's especially arrogant for this being a debate about priorities and emphasis, not facts and knowledge.--Prosfilaes 04:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
    • 'Comment Not worth responding to. User:SatuSuro 05:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
  10. Support Primary meaning is geographical entity. Man vyi 10:11, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  11. Support - There is a world out there with islands in it, and it existed before programming languages named after coffee. And Java is an enormous one. Jooler 11:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment and it's not just about the language comming later. It's about the language being named after something that was named after the island. And just a brief disclaimer, I'm a Java programmer. --Abu Badali 15:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  12. Support, on the condition that both Java (Sun) and Java (disambiguation) are given links at the top, as Eluchil404 proposed. --JerryOrr 19:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
    Support The island is the original Java. Changed. See below. Mr. Lefty Talk to me! 00:20, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
  13. SupportThe island with 124 million people is far more important than the programming language or a coffee named for coming from the island. Plus, the island has a history of around 60,000 years(!) as compared to the language which arrived sometime in the 1990s(I think). There should be a disambiguation header at the top to redirect to the (much) less widespread uses. I should importantly note that the predominant use of the word Java throughout Asia refers to the island. Mostlyharmless 08:23, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment A DAB page is not about what is more "important" than something else in a moral, ethical, legal, historical, sentimental, humanist or any other sense. A DAB page is not about what has the most history. A DAB page is about what is searched for most in this encyclopedia; it's about getting people to what they are searching for as fast as possible. And there's no evidence been presented that that most people who type in "Java" are looking for the island - the circumstantial evidence is that the language would (currently) be searched for more often. — Estarriol talk 13:43, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment that sort of comment should be at least backed up with a link to wiki access stats, anyone can grab claims of personal authority of what constitutes most etc etc.User:SatuSuro 13:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
  14. Strong support. I agree with Danny Yee. Internet access is expanding at a fast rate. Even if the argument that within the current demographics of active wikipedians more people refer to Java as the language rather than as the island were correct at the time of this discussion, this argument is shortsighted. If Wikipedia were to remain a respectable and reliable source of information, we should look ahead to the day when internet access has proliferated suficiently that we have unbiased population representation as users of, and contributors to Wikipedia. And 250 million Indonesians can't be wrong ;-). Further, I think that pointing to the language, or even the diambig page, will introduce bias to NEW users of Wikipedia. Julius.kusuma 16:24, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
  15. Support. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 02:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
  16. Strongly agree. The programming language is more recent, more ephemeral, and harly "better known". There are 124 million people living on the island, and anybody with a decent level of general knowledge (or of primary school geography) has heard of it. Zocky | picture popups 04:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
  17. Support, PTD is generally appropriate for geographical features over other items named thereafter. James F. (talk) 07:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
  18. Support per Abu (#4 above). --romanm (talk) 08:43, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
  19. Support --Jovanvb 12:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
  20. Strong Support to quote zocky, "one is a country with 124 million people, and another is a programming language named after the coffee named after the island" hoopydinkConas tá tú? 16:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment Historically the island has been considered a country at times, and is only now a part of larger country.User:SatuSuro 02:14, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment In some senses, yes, but as a general statement, no. By most measures, Kiribati and Palau are not as significant as California, Java, or Guandong. -- Danny Yee 23:22, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment - that's an incorrect quote - I said it's an island with 124 million people, not a country. I do agree that, just as major geographic features are inherently more important than programming languages named after them, countries are inherently more important than parts of countries. Can we now finally go move Georgia (country) to Georgia ? Zocky | picture popups 11:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
  21. Support per Danny Yee. DanKeshet 18:08, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
  22. Support --Philip Baird Shearer 08:51, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
  23. Support. — Hex (❝?!❞) 13:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
  24. Support per Danny Yee. Gimmetrow 21:02, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
  25. Support: island came first, language is named after it, as are other things. Stephen B Streater 19:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
  26. Strong support per Eluchil404, Danny Yee, and Zocky. Dab hdr for the language is sufficient, and only people that have Wikipedia confused with urbandictionary.com will be looking for coffee. Niteowlneils 02:02, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  27. Support. --jacobolus (t) 02:25, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Java should point to programming language

Java should point to coffee

Java should point to disambig

  1. Support: I've never had Java the island come up in casual conversation. To most internet entities it's a nonentity. Make all the politically correct rants you want, but most of the users of Wikipedia are more familiar with and more interested in the programming language than the island.--Prosfilaes 05:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  2. Support, as this is the best way for the most readers to get where they want to fastest. I'm disappointed that this has turned into an emotional/imperialism issue. Britannica doesn't compromise its indexes to serve sentimentality or patriotism, why should we? — Estarriol talk 07:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  3. Weak support, as I can imagine people typing Java in the search box to find information either about the island or the programming language. Second choice is to find or redirect to the island, but with a prominent link to the disambiguation page at the top of the article about the island. --ais523 07:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  4. Strong Support. There are too many meanings here to move the dab. The programming language is probably better know then the island. It is more like to be mentioned in response to the question, Java _______. Coffee is also a strong contender. By moving the dab from the main article we risk sending too many people to the wrong page if they type if Java. This is one of the primary uses for the dab and is so correctly used right now. Don't change what is not broken. Vegaswikian 23:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
  5. Support While Java the island is well known, the programming language and coffee slang are just about as well known. Mr. Lefty Talk to me! 00:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
  6. Support. Readers must allways have a choise. --Kaster 13:01, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
  7. Support. I think that it is better to offer the choice first. The problem with pointing directly to any of the proposed articles is that the visitor would have to load the default article first, and then he/she would realize that the loaded article is not the article he/she wanted, then he/she would click on the "disambig" to load another page, and finally click on the article that he/she wants. ivan.cukic 18:35, 18 June 2006
  8. Support. The island and the programming language aren't the only things on the disambiguation page. --Chris (talk) 13:04, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
  9. Support, having Java point to the island will lead to many wrong links that are hard to fix. If Java is a disambig, then people at WP:DPL can fix the links quickly and easily. No meaning is overwhelmingly most common. Kusma (討論) 21:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

add any new proposals above the line

Discussion

There are is no Oppose option in an Approval vote, but you can vote for as many proposals as you like at the same time. Tactical voting (Changing you vote(s)) is encouraged to help build a consensus. Adding new proposals in chronological order is encouraged if it helps build a consensus, (--Philip Baird Shearer 09:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC))

Oppose Java should point to disambig . Looking for something in an encyclopedia is like asking "What is ________?". What is Java? It's an Island. --Abu Badali 01:09, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

It should be completely obvious that those of us who disagree with you would answer that question differently. What is Java? It's a programming language, it's a drink. I wouldn't answer it's an island, I wouldn't think about the island.--Prosfilaes 02:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
  • CommentOur ignorance will determine what our answer would be. Notwithstanding our answer... man, Java is an island. A pretty big one indeed. --Abu Badali 09:12, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment So everyone who disagrees with you is ignorant? It's a part of an island group known as Indonesia, the subparts of which are pretty damn irrelevant in this part of the world.--Prosfilaes 17:33, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Anyone who's never heard of the Island of Java is ignorant. Anyone who's never heard of the programing language Java probably studied something other than Computer Science at College. Maybe Geography. Jooler
  • Comment Is everyone who's never heard of Guangdong ignorant? There's only so much geography of places far, far away that have no effect on the learner that you can cram in someone's head. If you've never heard of Java the programming, you've never been very far on the Internet.--Prosfilaes 18:03, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment So Java is irrelevant in "this part of the world"? This is a global encylopedia, and Java is pretty relevant round here (the Asia-Pacific region where I happen to live). Mostlyharmless 23:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment So it's relevant where you live and irrelevant where I live. Perhaps redirecting to a disambig page instead of either one of them is the best way to do things.--Prosfilaes 18:03, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Maybe someone should read what was once on Wikipedia's disclaimer page: "Wikipedia contains obscure information that would not be covered in a conventional encyclopedia. Wikipedia's coverage of subjects is patchy, based on the whims of its volunteer contributors (in particular, subjects of interest to young technical people are likely, but not certain, to receive heavier coverage than other subjects). Readers should not judge the importance of topics based on their coverage in Wikipedia, nor assume that a topic is important merely because it is the subject of a Wikipedia article... " User:SatuSuro 02:24, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment So once again you're assuming ignorance on the part of your opponents?--Prosfilaes 04:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no point just changing the redirect. Sooner or later it will only end up in a revert war. This debate is about MOVING the page to the name Java. --Philip Baird Shearer 09:22, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

So it will end up in a move war? That's far more destructive to Wikipedia than a revert war over a redirect would be.--Prosfilaes 04:17, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

It won't, that is one of the reasons for WP:RM. All the editors taking part in this survey seem to agree that there are only two choices that either Java (island) or Java (disambiguation) should be moved here. Once that move had been made, the other page can not be moved here without administrator intervention. It is unlikely that an administrator would over-ride a WP:RM decision without first requesting that another WP:RM survey was held. By long standing custom, WP:RM moves are usually held no more frequently than every six months over moves to similar places. When this has been attempted in the past many express an opinion against more frequent moves even if they disagreed during the previous consensus building exercise. Also cut and past moves are not acceptable because it destroys page history needed for copyright issues and such moves will be reversed. --Philip Baird Shearer 12:28, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Next step after the move...

Let's keep consistency. I invite you all to make Nike point to the article on the goddess and leave Nike (disambiguation) for what it's for. (This is not a joke.). --Abu Badali 21:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

You have a point. If we're going to change the index of Wikipedia to point to "what came first" rather than the more useful "what people search for most", Nike should indeed point to the goddess. And also, Hamburger should point to Hamburg (people). I generally support the value of an index over "what came first", but I support consistency over all these issues. — Estarriol talk 08:09, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that you that this a valid point on this one. Age is a relevant factor here because of the greater number of human lives affected, and the importance of the island rather than the language. Mostlyharmless 09:31, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Humm... but we don't have an article on Hamburg (people) (as of June 30, 2006). --Abu Badali 14:34, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that consistency can really be achieved here. Each case is different, Nike is just the Greek word for victory which is often personified. Each situation has to evaluated on its own merits. Eluchil404 12:37, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
  • All the people who supported the move of Java (island) to Java now have the responsibility of fixing the constant disambiguation issues of "Java". I will no longer be doing this as I have in the past because the page is no longer a disambiguation page. Have fun with hundreds of links to be done per month. RedWolf 15:13, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree with Estarriol's thoughts. Btw, I'm a programmer, BUT for God's sake, making Java a disambig page aren't going to hurt Javan people's rights or something... Common users, who search on Wikipedia USES computers, and encounters Java on the web, as a language. IT1s irrevelant that Java is a big island with over 130 million people, and is many thousand years old, because this is not a honor book, but an encyclopaedia. Thus, it provides informations efficiently. I think efficiently is when I search for "Java" and get a list of what are the possible meanings for it. IMHO. --Rev-san 15:45, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Can we have a direct link to Java (Sun) in the disambiguation header on Java? -- Danny Yee 04:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Yet another requested move

See Talk:Java#Requested move for yet another requested move. older ≠ wiser 01:53, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Potential confusion

As will be seen from the BBC news story linked here – http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-41360821/hampshire-rock-band-java-reunite-after-1980s-split – a UK band called Java which split in the 1980's has just had their original LP released for the first time. I would guess that they don't yet meet notability requirements, but as a result of this development they may do so in future. We already have an article Java (band) about a different (French) group, which is of course listed in this disambiguation article. Would editors agree that, in the event of the UK band achieving notability, the two should be named/moved to Java (UK band) and Java (French band), or is there a better solution? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.201.115.180 (talk) 21:45, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Java which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 08:59, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 28 February 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. While supports argue that people often link Java meaning another meaning, opposers argue that the island outweighs other meanings in long term significance. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 20:40, 7 March 2021 (UTC)


– No clear primary topic, the island has 37,146 views but Java (programming language) has 88,793, Java (software platform) has 13,307, JavaScript has 86,371, Java virtual machine has 16,295 and Java (instrumental) has 852[[1]]. Although the island is primary by long-term significance and most of the entries do appear to derive from it its not primary by usage and Java (dance) says the origin is unknown and given its a 4 word term its quite possible some of the other entries don't derive from it. Google mainly returns the programming language as does Images while Books is split, the 1st 3 results are for the language but all but 1 of the rest of the results are for the island. Its probably safest to disambiguate given the other 36 entries (and 5 in the see also). There is an island in Canada called "Java Island" but given that might not be notable and appears to use "Island" as part of the name its probably not a PDAB though Java, Indonesia (or Java (Indonesia) could also be used Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:55, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

  • Support. I agree that there is no primary topic here. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:54, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
  • For clarity: this was proposed in 2018 and in 2014 with consensus against it. – Thjarkur (talk) 22:16, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Weak support. To be fair, the (Indonesian) island has slightly more incoming links than its rivals, and JavaScript is a red herring because it should never be called Java: they're different programming languages. However, I still have to agree that there's no primary topic. Java (programming language) has been around for 25 years, so this move passes the 10 year test for avoiding recentism. Further evidence is that editors often link to Java when they intend one of the IT meanings. If experienced editors don't think the island is a PT, maybe readers don't either. Weak support only because the 2018 RM was a WP:SNOW oppose, even if we disregard !votes from editors native to the island. Certes (talk) 23:10, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
    Yes all 13 !voters opposed but we've now got 3 supporters yesterday and 1 oppose from the early hours of today, I don't really fancy its chances of succeeding. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:43, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 23:40, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose Due to concerns of long-term significance of the Java island in Indonesia. 36.77.106.231 (talk) 00:28, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose The Indonesian island named Java is a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for long-term significance and educational value due to fact that it is most populous island in the world and has cited by many literature. So i Don't see any effort to change primary topic base as long as it retains any educational value. 116.206.35.18 (talk) 23:38, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose per Wikipedia:Systemic bias because it takes US-EU view not worldwide view. I also reiterate previous argument by other users in 2018 RM that the island the origin of other derivative names like Java programming, Java Coffee, etc. The most populated island is more important than any other topic named "Java" because it had educational value. This is actually same as Apple vs Apple Inc. which former have long-term significance despite more pageviews in latter. 182.1.231.153 (talk) 23:50, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Support, no clear primary topic, given that the programming language was named after the coffee, which in turn was named after the island, and all of them are famous. JIP | Talk 01:22, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The guidance Wikipedia:PRIMARYTOPIC has a specific example of cases like this: "A topic may have principal relevance for a specific group of people (for example, as the name of a local place, or software), but not be the primary meaning among a general audience". Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 13:07, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose. A textbook case of long-term significance and educational value. Srnec (talk) 03:08, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose This is the worlds' most populous island. Its clearly the primary topic, any move is blatant eurocentrism. Eopsid (talk) 12:53, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose. In terms of common usage and long-term significance the island is far and away the primary topic. Ask anyone except a computer programmer what Java was and I can pretty much guarantee that they'd say it was an island. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:53, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
    I don't think the island is far and away primary by common usage. Indeed for most people surely the software/coffee are also as common or more so among a general audience rather than a specific group of people (namely not people interested in geography or computing/drinks). Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:56, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
There's like 150 million people on the island. Whether people know about it depends massively on where they are in the world. In South East Asia the island is definitely the primary topic. It would only be slightly hyperbolic to say its the most important island in the world. Eopsid (talk) 22:06, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
Probably mostly it would depend on how ignorant they are! I'm in the UK and I certainly wouldn't think of anything other than the island first. -- Necrothesp (talk) 17:39, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
JavaScript would surely be though of by many people first (if not the programming language its self since the script is primarily known by its full name) being in the UK too I'd think of both the island, program and coffee with "Java" alone, though for me the island may have a slight lead. The page views and appearance in different sourced presented in the nomination seem to support this. In addition I'd point out the the island, programming language and script are all level 4 vital articles. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:05, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
"The script is primarily known by its full name"? What do you mean, "primarily" and "full name"? Java is Java and JavaScript is JavaScript. They are different languages and have different names. JIP | Talk 16:57, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
I was meaning that JavaScript is primarily called "JavaScript" rather than just "Java" so has less weight with respect to primacy for "Java" alone but Java (programming language) is obviously called just "Java" since it has a qualified title. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:20, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
JavaScript is not Java, just as Malayalam is not Malay, but don't let that distract us from the other support arguments. Certes (talk) 17:42, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
Calling JavaScript Java makes about as much sense as calling dogs cats. JIP | Talk 17:53, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Strongly Oppose. As many people have said above the island is by far the primary topic. IMO it would be an example of US/Euro-centric bias to downgrade it to one on a list of bullet points.Dan Carkner (talk) 23:23, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
    Many other Wikipedias such as De, Fr, Da, Es and Nl have "Java" as a DAB and have the island at a qualified title. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:42, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose aside from the concerns mentioned above, in 20-30 years Java the programming language may fade, but the island will still be there like it had been for the past few thousand years. Then the only other alternate use would be for some particularly weird English speakers who still refer to coffee as Java, for whatever reason. Juxlos (talk) 00:23, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose IMO, the primary topic is the island with 150 million inhabitants, even though that's not always what comes to mind first to people with European/American background. Java is literally the example given in WP:NWFCTM about the danger of cultural bias. Also, consider Apple vs Apple Inc. which has similar pageview skew [2] but the fruit is still the primary topic. HaEr48 (talk) 02:19, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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