Talk:Jan van Eyck

Then ... what IS it?

"This is not a painted marriage certificate, or the record of a betrothal. The woman is not pregnant, as the hand-gesture of lifting the dress recurs in contemporary renditions of the (virgin) St. Catherine (including in Jan van Eyck's own work, in the so-called Dresden triptych)."

1) AFAIK (via a source in early art two years ago) the common believe is that the painting IS a record of betrothal. So, if not, and not any of the above, what IS it? I would be curious if the person who put that information there could verify it. Just for fun, y' know?

No - see the Campbell NG catalogue ref, & Arnolfini Portrait Johnbod 13:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

---

I cannot believe you keep reverting to this 1912 version. It is stupid. It's wrong from start to end. Starting from the top, Jan van Eyck was not a Flemish painter, because he came from Maseyck, near Li?ge, not Flanders. The term is Netherlandish (as in Friedlander, Early Netherlandish Painting, Panofsky, same title, etc.). Nor is he EVER recorded to have worked under or with his brother. the Ghent inscription, not unquestioned, is the only thing tying the two brothers, and it specifically reads that Jan took over only after Hubert died. So there go the next three paragraphs. I've never even heard of that 1421 portrait, and there isn't a single scholar on the planet who still attributes to Jan with any conviction anything pre-1426. Some of the subsequent things are even too silly to address. Philip of Charolais??? Anyway, I've spent two hours rewriting this to have you nullify it, so won't spend any more. I contend that factually correct, albeit not to-protocol beats an embarrassingly false version -- you're spreading nonsense.

I think Zoe reverted your edits for two reasons: POV and lack of wikification. Some sentences should be rephrased in a more neutral way and where possible, internal links should be added. - Karl Stas 08:20, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

And so, due to lack of wikification, Zoe (a Wikipedian?) preferred to allow the article to spout nonsense rather than wikifying it, herself, or adding tags that would allow others to come and provide citations, links, etc. I might have been willing, as I frequently do, to find sources- but I'm not going to research the topic. You had an expert work on the article and spend precious time, to no avail.--69.225.116.255 (talk) 17:44, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

THIS IS SO CONFUSING!!I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU GUYS ARE TALKING ABOUT!! GIVE ME SOME INFORMATION ABOUT JAN VAN EYCK!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.26.193.42 (talk) 15:49, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

neutrality

"perfected the technique" "never treated him otherwise than graciously" "with almost as much vigour as his master" "Jan only differs from his brother in being less masculine and less sternly religious" "two splendid likenesses" "Like many great artists he formed but few pupils" "if the personal influence of the Van Eycks was small, that of their works was immense"

So is opinion only admissible when the facts around it are completely false? The phrase "unparalleled renown" in my version, which seems to irk Zoe so much, is based on the latest scholarship: see Paula Nuttal, From Flanders to Florence: the Impact of Netherlands Painting (2004); Till-Holger Borchert et al., The Century of Jan van Eyck (2002); Marina Belozerskaya, Rethinking the Renaissance: Burgundian Arts Across Europe (2002).

Whatever flaws it may have, my version is a better starting point. Keeping this 1912 version would be like keeping a 1904 version under "Astronomy." User:193.63.184.1

I agree, but it wasn't me who reverted your edits in the first place. Apparently Zoe can't be bothered to defend his/her decision, so I'll revert your version. And oh, BTW, please register and sign your posts! Edits by unregistered users are reverted more lightly. - Karl Stas 17:28, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I discussed this on the user's Talk page, if you would bother to read that, and I'm going to revert you, as the edits are unsourced concerning his brother, and "unparallelled renown" is hardly NPOV. The resources list is excessive, as well. User:Zoe|^(talk) 03:51, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Whatever its flaws, his version is superior to the 1911 EB article. I see no need to revert it completely. The EB article is not neutral either. Do you really want to start a revert war just because the edits concerning his brother are unsourced??? - Karl Stas 07:52, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

It wouldn't be a revert war if he would source his edits. User:Zoe|^(talk) 20:10, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

In cases like these it's better to use one or more of these templates. Moreover, it would be unreasonable to require that editors cite a precise source for everything they write. Wikipedia articles are not scholarly articles after all, we can't put footnotes after every sentence or even paragraph. Also note that "unparalleled renown" has been changed to "of great renown in his day", which is a statement of fact, not an opinion. Karl Stas 22:12, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia aims at becoming a reliable source: it is in any case better than the numerous individual pages which preceded it. Could I ask the hyperquestion, whether it might be possible to extend a user profile to switch sources in or out, both in terms of original sources and commentaries thereon? In connection with the second, please also remember that you are writing for posteriority: there's nothing more irritating than to find a long list of commentaries which are all out of print and unavailable in antiquarian bookshops. It might therefore be more relevant to include the entire context in such sources.Jel 07:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

"Unparalleled reknown" would have been fine. It is not a matter of opinion. Reknown simply means that the person was well known in their time (and he was). Unparalleled means that no other person of that place can be found who is equally known for the same work. That's also true. If someone wants to find sources that disprove this claim (some other more famous artist exists at the time), then it would a misstatement of fact. But making statements about information flow in a society (reknown) are testable (and *any* art history book would give you the information about Van Eyck's reputation - go to Honour's History of World Art if you need an authority to state it). Easy to do. And that's what people SHOULD do when contests about fame arise on Wikipedia - grab any current, academically sound book with juried sources and just cite it. Don't claim (as I've seen) that Tolstoi isn't a famous Russian novelist or Van Eyck is not reknowned, instead of doing your homework. There are so many ways that some of you could do some work and contribute to this article, rather than continue to resist making it better.--69.225.116.255 (talk) 17:50, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

RfC

My familiarity with Jan van Eyck is pretty much limited to an acquaintance with his major works and patronage through the court of Burgundy. The new version of the article looks like an improvement over the 1911 Brittanica article. I suggest keeping it, sourcing it, and editing for tone. Regards, Durova 03:05, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Original Research/NPOV?

With regards to the Arnolfini Wedding, the following is said: "This is not a painted marriage certificate, or the record of a betrothal. The woman is not pregnant, as the hand-gesture of lifting the dress recurs in contemporary renditions of the (virgin) St. Catherine (including in Jan van Eyck's own work, in the so-called Dresden triptych)." I think such qualifies as original research at the least, or plugging a personal opinion/belief at worst, and should be taken out. Objections? Preston 23:44, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

If anything, it should be made to coincide with the Arnolfini article.

- See Arnolfini Portrait & the Campbell NG Catalogue. Johnbod 13:57, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Date of birth

Not only is Van Eyck's date of birth not known, but the sequence of his birth and that of his brothers is not known. The National Gallery catalogue suggest that, if their portrait (lead pic in article) of 1433 is indeed a self-portrait, as seems likely, then he may have been born in "about 1380" - but of course this is just subjective. Johnbod 18:01, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The Library of Congress has a 1390 birthdate and a 1440 death date, which would have been heavily researched and justified (but that research was done over 50 years ago; not sure how accurate it still is).--FeanorStar7 18:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

List of works

Would it be possible to start developing a list of works, including attributions? I was astonished to discover the Fountain of Grace in the Prado, which I think I can add considerably to its background from other historical studies, for instance.Jel 07:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC) is there any way to cite these sources correctly using MLA format?

Van Eyck was a Flemish painter

I have altered the confusing statement that van Eyck was a Dutch painter. This is my motivation: 1.Their is good reason to assume that van Eyck was born in Maaseyck which happens to be a municipality of the modern Flemish region in the kingdom of Belgium. 2.All the works attributable to van Eyck known today have been produced in the last decade of his life which he spend in Bruges and Ghent, both Flemish cities. (he is documented in Holland the decade before, but not a single original work from this period survives) 3.In art historical research van Eyck is (almost without exception) considered as the "founder" of the "Flemish" school. Every scholarly publication on Van Eyck considers his art in the context of Flemish artistic traditions. In most cases Jan van Eyck is explicitly referred to as a "Flemish" painter. conclusion: It would be historically correct to call van Eyck a "Netherlandish" painter because this seems more neutral than Flemish or Dutch. I think however that it would be confusing because "Netherlandish" has somewhat lost its association to "de Nederlanden" in general. As he clearly belongs to what is called the "Flemish school" it is therefore tenable to call him "Flemish".

He should be referred to as an Early Netherlandish painter, which is the correct scholarly term, and the rest left to the biography. Johnbod 03:33, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation of his name

When the next art historian happens by this page, would you comment on the pronunciation key given at the top of the article? We have, as the Dutch pronunciation, [ˈjɑn vɑn ˈɛjk], which when the phonetic key is followed, comes out Van (soft a) Ejk. An English speaker wants to pronounce that Ejik. Can we also have an English pronunciation key? Is "Ejik" close to the proper English pronunciation of the name? Because most people in museums pronounce it Van Ike (long I) when they point to his paintings. If it's really Ejk, for art historians. I'd like to know that.--69.225.116.255 (talk) 17:55, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I think "Ike" is indeed normal for Anglo art historians & anyone who does IPA should probably say so in the article. The "Dutch pronunciation" is just that - look at "Van Goff" (UK) or "Van Go" (US, France) as opposed to the "Van Horchhh" the Dutch say. Johnbod (talk) 18:13, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

How many works

Guessing the number attributed with confidence is somewhere in the low 30s, but I cant find a sources that discusses it. Anyone have a better idea of the amount. Ceoil (talk) 04:03, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I have sources and have been trying to pin this down; it's a good question. So, working on it, but it's looking as though the number might be quite a bit lower than 30. Truthkeeper (talk) 15:51, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

The template lists 23, with Portrait of Isabella of Portugal (van Eyck) known to be lost, and not all may meet that criterion. There's also the Turin-Milan Hours, which is controversial. Fewer than 30 I bet. I can look in the Harbison if that helps. Johnbod (talk) 18:56, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I have Elisabeth Dhanen's book and she lists less than 20 that were his only without Hubert with certainty - which is interesting. I've looked through Pacht but can't find anything that gives a specific number. I think because of the Milan-Turin Hours and the Hubert issue, it's hard to pin down. And some have been lost. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:51, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

From scanning sources, I'm counting 23, including Isabella of Portugal but not Ghent, Turin-Milan or the St Barbara drawing. Ceoil (talk) 19:48, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I think that's about right. There's a separate portrait of Arnolfini (without the wife), which should be fixed on the template. Sorry don't know how to do that. I think that the Portrait of Jan de Leeuw and the Portrait of a Goldsmith might be the same - at least according to Pacht. I've read (sorry will have to find it) that St. Jerome in His Study is questionable. If I'm wrong, I'll strike that. So, from these bits will let you recount. Oh and btw - Ghent can definitely be attributed because he finished it. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:26, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I mean canonical, with the usual pluses and minuses. Of course Ghent, but then is that a single work, or another 28! Ceoil (talk) 02:59, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

I've removed Annunciation van Eyck, Paris from the template, because I dont know what it is, and cant trace it. Ceoil (talk) 19:24, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Possibly this?. Which I believe goes into the "Contested" column. Will have to check. Victoria (tk) 20:42, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Ah, ok. Harbison attributes the workshop assistant the Master of the Grimacing St John for that piece, thanks for finding the commoms cat. Ceoil (talk) 21:46, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

What's the 1430-32 Crucifixion in the workshop column? Victoria (tk) 22:10, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Have updated the tally to "about 20". Ceoil (talk) 13:09, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Oriental carpets

I am absolutely sick to death of the highjacking of the captions of Renaissance paintings in order to push one single point at the expense of all others.

Virgin and Child with Canon van der Paele. This painting, one of Jan van Eyck's most significant, had a caption that informed the reader that this was Virgin and Child with Canon van der Paele, 1434, one of the most well known and renowned examples of Oriental carpets in Renaissance painting. WTF?!

The caption didn't mention:

• the identity of the saints
• the gestures of the people
• the symbolism
• the objects the Virgin and Child are holding
• the location in a church
• the throne with its carvings
• the canopy of the throne
• the floor tiles and bottle glass windows.
• the fact that the Canon has glasses

It is as if the only important and interesting thing in this painting is its oriental rug.

Yes, we do have an article of Oriental carpets in Renaissance painting, but that doesn't mean that the focus of every caption about every painting that has a carpet in it needs to be about the carpet!

When a painting is as complex as this one, then it is better to comment on nothing than to have a single-focussed comment that acts as a distraction to looking at the painting as a whole.

It would be the equivalent of writing a caption to Birth of Venus in the Botticelli article that mentions only the botanical species on Flora's robe, or writing a caption on the picture of David in the Michelangelo article that focussed entirely on the fact he is uncircumcised, and said no more than that! These things may be interesting in themselves, but they are not the subject of the artwork. Likewise, there is a great deal more to the painting of the Virgin and Canon van der Paele than the fnature of the carpet on the floor.

Could the editors of the page remove these captions from all places where they are creating an obvious imbalance in the information provided?

Amandajm (talk) 17:56, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Agree and thanks for mentioning. It was added here and should have been picked up on a long time ago. Obviously the painting has much more than a carpet! Truthkeeper (talk) 18:39, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Yikes. Good call Amanda. Ceoil (talk) 18:50, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Gallery

Not crazy about it. Half those images are shown in the Ghent Altarpiece and there's little thought in terms of dating, clumping by subject, etc. Thoughts? Victoria (tk) 21:39, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Note: I've reverted to a previous version. Not only, in my view, is the gallery problematic, but the structure of the page shouldn't be changed. The page obviously needs a lot of expansion, in terms of adding text, which would be a major undertaking. Victoria (tk) 23:50, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I think this old master's works were extremely poorly represented. Galleries are NOT discuraged. Presenting details is a common practice when those works are so big like his. All art books are FULL OF details of his works, why should this be unacceptable on Wikipedia? One can't represent an artist with a lot of TEXT and nothing else but text plus three not so representative works.

About images and galleries: Images in the gallery collectively do have encyclopedic value and add to the reader's understanding of the subject. Galleries are not discuraged. Please see also this discussion here, Talk:Charles Marion Russell.

Per WP:IG:

Images are typically interspersed individually throughout an article near the relevant text (see WP:MOSIMAGES). However, the use of a gallery section may be appropriate in some Wikipedia articles if a collection of images can illustrate aspects of a subject that cannot be easily or adequately described by text or individual images. The images in the gallery collectively must have encyclopedic value and add to the reader's understanding of the subject.

• Image use policy say: Sometimes a picture may benefit from a size other than the default; see the Manual of Style for guidance.

• Manual of style: **As a general rule, images should not be set to a larger fixed size than the 220px default (users can adjust this in their preferences). 'If an exception to the general rule is warranted', forcing an image size to be either larger or smaller than the 220px default is done by placing a parameter in the image coding.

• The exception from the general rule is most art and art related articles that they do fall into this cathegory, and they are this exception to the general rule .

• See here art and art related articles, and architecture articles. These articles do use images larger than thumb. Michelangelo, Ancient Greek architecture, Anglo-Saxon art, La maja desnuda, Stained glass, Sandro Botticelli, Yixian glazed pottery luohans, Wells Cathedral, Romanticism, History painting, Romanesque architecture, Ambrosius Benson, Portrait of Francesco d'Este, Andrea Mantegna, Crucifix (Cimabue, Santa Croce), Danaë (Titian series), Cambrai Madonna, The Werl Triptych, Portrait of a Young Girl (Christus, Berlin), Léal Souvenir, Braque Triptych, Death of the Virgin (van der Goes), Miraflores Altarpiece, Madonna of the Dry Tree

• See here also featured articles - art and art related articles, and architecture articles do use images larger than thumb; as exception to the general rule : Early Netherlandish painting, Holy Thorn Reliquary, The Magdalen Reading, Royal Gold Cup, Madonna in the Church, Stanford Memorial Church, Portrait Diptych of Dürer's Parents, The Entombment (Bouts), Crucifixion and Last Judgement diptych, Las Meninas, Dresden Triptych, The Garden of Earthly Delights, The Magdalen Reading Funerary art

Hafspajen (talk) 23:58, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi Hafspajen, let's follow WP:BRD please. You were bold, I reverted. Now it's time to discuss, not revert again. I've said what I had to say, you've added to the conversation, now it's time to allow others to chime in. Thanks. Btw - have a look at who brought those to FAC, fwiw. Victoria (tk) 00:03, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

You just go and revert like five hours work without discussing it and than when we are all in really a bad mood then we can start discussing. Brilliant. Hafspajen (talk) 00:05, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

I've regigged the gallery a bit, keeping the 3 level struct; Ghent, religious commissions and portraits. Hope this is acceptable to all. Ceoil (talk) 00:19, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

It's much better. Thanks. Victoria (tk) 19:48, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

I didnt change it much from what Hafspajen had put together, just reordered and what have you. Wondering about something like what the have on the ca wiki. Ceoil (talk) 20:41, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

I guess I kinda wish I hadn't brought it up. But fwiw … Hafspajen says above that art books are full of details, which is true, but in context. Dhanens has an entry (text) for each painting and the entry shows the painting and its details. I'd prefer we go in that direction and focus here on text (slowly), and as the text grows add in images to match the text, like we did with ENA. But that's just my opinion. I'd pulled it into my sandbox to do something about it, but you got to it first and the reordering is better. Personally I'm not crazy about the ca.wp unless we make a separate list of all the paintings or something. Not all that crazy about the gallery either, but won't fight it, and it serves a purpose now, I suppose until we can get text in. I have plenty of sources to build up this page (Pacht, Dhanens, Borchert, etc., etc.) but little time this summer for heavy lifting. Anyway, since you asked. Victoria (tk) 21:38, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Don't understand how on earth one should present a big artist without a gallery. Only articles that are about one single picture manage without galleries, or artists that only painted three or four pictures or so. (Very unusual...) Hafspajen (talk) 09:49, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

What the hell is your point by now. Your first attempt at a gallery needed improvment. Can we all let this drop, its pointless. Ceoil (talk) 09:52, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Don't swear Ceoil. You THANKED me for my edit right? NOW you reverted it and I DON't understand what your point is. I am swiching off now and you do whatever you want. Hafspajen (talk) 10:41, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

I am inclinded to swear Hafspajen, my bad but dont let that put you off; I would like you input on this page, and we are all on the same side. Friends? Ceoil (talk) 11:04, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi Hafspajen, I don't know why you'd say "how on earth" and use that kind of tone? I pulled the article into my sandbox hoping to rewrite there and add text - which is how on earth it's done, since this is an encyclopedia - but Ceoil got to the rewriting first, so I'll bow out. In my view there's a potentially wonderful page here, but I think it would be a many months' job of research and writing, but hey, what do I know? You like the gallery, Ceoil doesn't mind, no one else has responded, so consensus is to keep the gallery. I don't think anything else needs to be said about it. Victoria (tk) 13:35, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

I rather like the gallery. Ceoil (talk) 13:41, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

And that's why we have talk pages to gauge consensus. So it's all good :) Victoria (tk) 13:44, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

I like the gallery as I say, also its a narrow enough area of inerest so good to have outside input. Happy to have Hafspajen on board. Ceoil (talk) 13:48, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Look, I already admitted I made a mistake for bringing it up and again: what do I know? I'm sorry for mentioning. Victoria (tk) 13:53, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

I think we are all friends here. And can work togheher. Ceoil (talk) 13:57, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Craig Harbison references

There are only two Craig Harbison references listed under Sources (1984 and 1997). But there are citations to two additional Harbison refs (1991 and 1995). Do these refs just have the wrong dates, or are there missing sources? MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 23:14, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Mandarax, 1991 & 1995 refer to the same book but different publications. The refs and pf nr are all to the 1991 edition. Thanks for spotting. Ceoil (talk) 23:31, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Lenses - Camera Obscura?

I've just watched a BBC documentary by David Hockney (Secret Knowledge) on the possible use of lenses or early cameras (obscura - Lucida) by early Netherlandish painters from 1420 onwards. I came here hoping to read more on this subject but there is no mention of this at all. Is this just Hockney's original research or generally accepted? The chandelier in the Arnolfini picture facinates me, are we too quick to call "foul!" and disrespect the skills of these painters? 195.212.29.72 (talk) 14:16, 18 February 2016 (UTC)Johnny

I think the use of lenses is quite widely accepted, but not the use of camera devices. But there's next to no evidence. Really the discussion should centre on illuminated manuscripts, the main home of tiny detail, and consider the Persian miniature also. Johnbod (talk) 17:09, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi Johnny. For more on the subject see: Hockney–Falco thesis. --Hillbillyholiday ^talk 17:25, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Education

used the Greek and Hebrew alphabets in his inscriptions, indicating that he was schooled in the classics - some of the inscriptions seem to contain grammatical or spelling errors (I have read). Have not seen any conclusions drawn from this, buts its certainly interesting. Wondering if anybody has seen commentary. Ceoil (talk) 15:34, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

I suspect that spelling and grammar are a more modern construct than ever was the case prior to the widespread dissemination of printed texts. This is OR, of course, but both Latin and vernacular writing dating to the 14th century and earlier rarely has any consistency of grammar and less so of spelling in my experience. I was recently reading Carmina Burana and the variation in both Latin and Middle High German is obvious. I have no Greek or Hebrew, so can't comment on that aspect directly, but I'm sure it would be quite possible to be schooled in the classics in the late 14th century Netherlands and still produce inscriptions full of grammatical and spelling errors. --RexxS (talk) 18:31, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Partly so, but in Latin both were typically way more consistent than in the vernaculars, where there was as yet nobody to say what was the right way do do things, which classics, the Vulgate, and church texts pretty much did for Latin, though of course medieval/Church Latin had differences. Plus Latin inherently offers less scope for spelling variations than most vernaculars. Greek was still very exotic when Van Eyck was a jungling. Johnbod (talk) 18:54, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

I'll check Dhanen. Can't remember off the top of my head but she devotes a section to it. He did like to bend things, so to speak, so it's often all riddles with him. Victoria (tk) 20:25, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

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• Van Eyck - The Crucifixion; The Last Judgment.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:07, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Birthplace

Van Eyck was born in Maaseik which was then in the County of Loon under the Holy Roman Empire. Calling him Flemish is incorrect. In the last ten years of his life he resided in the County of Flanders after having travelled Europe, this does not make him Flemish, especially not in the modern meaning of the word. If anyone suggests a different phrasing of my original sentence please correct me here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ingbiegeltje (talk • contribs) 15:26, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

English usage of "Flemish" is far less precise than in the local languages, and has been since the Middle Ages - there is a long discussion of this somewhere, perhaps at Talk:Flemish people. Maddening for Belgians of all sorts, but there you are. English-speakers are unmoved by being told their usage is "incorrect" - in English it isn't. Johnbod (talk) 20:19, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Dear Johnbod, thank you for your response. In an earlier discussion about the correct adjective for Van Eyck you already opted for the use of Early Netherlandish. I propose this to describe Van Eyck instead as this would be both correct and scholarly more interesting. Flemish however is completely incorrect and in fact dangerous: the far-right seperatist parties in Belgium are misusing the 'Flemish' identity of Van Eyck to promote an anti-Belgian 'Flemish' identity as you can read here by our national broadcaster (https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2019/11/11/cultuurbesparingen-expert/). I hope this moves you enough to reconsider your choice of words as they have a real-life impact in misinformation. Ingbiegeltje (talk) 20:25, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

As Johnbod said; stop edit warring until this is settled...Modernist (talk) 00:04, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Though the motives of Ingbiegeltje may not be very scholarly, he does have a point of course. Jan van Eyck simply wasn't Flemish as he wasn't born in Flanders. So to call him a Flemish painter is completely anachronistic. The weird thing is that many other Early Netherlandish painters are referred to simply as 'an Early Netherlandish painter'. For example Dieric Bouts, Gerard David and Rogier van der Weyden. On the other hand, Hans Memling is referred to as a German painter. If Jan van Eyck would be called a 'Belgian painter' everyone would disagree, but in essence it doesn't differ much from calling Hans Memling a German painter or Jan van Eyck a Flemish painter. There is very little consistency in the way Wikipedia presents this and defenses like 'English-speakers are unmoved by being told their usage is "incorrect" - in English it isn't.' are of course slightly absurd. 213.124.174.33 (talk) 20:51, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

I've no objection to rearranging so he isn't described as Flemish - Early Netherlandish painting comes in the same sentence. But there's nothing absurd about my defence - one has to do this quite often, as Belgian editors try to apply inappropriate French/Dutch definitions and descriptions - as you should know. Johnbod (talk) 21:10, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

That last edit was of course to maintain the status quo, since a discussion on this matter didn't took place; I don't agree with the content of that edit in anyway. Anyway, to say that it isn't incorrect in English, because the people in the Anglosphere are predominantly ignorant about matters like this, is in my opinion weird. Surely, the point of reference should be the time and place in which those artists grew up, and not what might be understandable for the people in the Anglosphere.

With regard to Van Eyck, there isn't even certainty where he was born. Hence my suggestion would be 'an Early Netherlandish artist', though this matter can probably never be done right. It seems to me that Wikipedia is highly inconsistent when it comes to matters like this. And it is particularly strange that people are suddenly extremely precise when it comes to Netherlandish artists or writers in comparison to let's say their German and Italian counterparts. For example, all of a sudden I read that Peter Paul Rubens is a 'Brabantic' artist, whereas Leonardo da Vinci or Michelangelo are simply Italian painters. This was already visible above when I compared Hans Memling to Rogier van der Weyden. 213.124.174.33 (talk) 23:33, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out on Rubens - he is back to being Flemish now, after 2 weeks. What an excellent example of what I was saying. English meanings are correct in English - how could it be otherwise? Actually, Italians are always coming along making artists, Florentine, Venetian etc (on more secure grounds historically, since those would have been the terms their English contemporaries used). Oddly, you never seem to get this with German artists. Johnbod (talk) 02:53, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

'English meanings are correct in English - how could it be otherwise?' This is laughable as it is absurd. So English is the measure of all things? Rubens being called a Brabantic artists is counter-intuitive, because generally he's not referred to as such. It is however the correct way to refer to him. Rubens being called a 'Flemish artist' is just as anachronistic as calling him a 'Belgian artist' or Da Vinci an 'Italian painter'. And btw, where are you basing this upon: 'Actually, Italians are always coming along making artists, Florentine, Venetian etc'? I think if you would change Da Vinci from an 'Italian painter' into 'a Florentine painter' a lot of Italians would get very angry with you... 213.124.174.33 (talk) 14:16, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

English is the measure of English. Find one WP:RS by a native speaker of English that calls Rubens by the "correct" term! "I think if you would change Da Vinci from an 'Italian painter' into 'a Florentine painter' a lot of Italians would get very angry with you" - no doubt, especially those from Rome or Naples, but if you watched as many Italian artist bios as i do, you would know this very often happens. Johnbod (talk) 16:43, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Even though you're writing about matters that are not part of your cultural area, English is still the measure of English? I would say any language should take into account the specifics of the subject field they're writing about. 'Find one WP:RS by a native speaker of English that calls Rubens by the "correct" term!'. I can't find one of course, because these monographs are largely subject to either ignorance or nationalism of the writers themselves. To give you an example: in Gardner's Art Through the Ages we can read on Hieronymus Bosch: 'Although certain genres and themes in painting emerged so frequently during the 15th century in Flanders as to qualify as conventions, this country also produced one of the most fascinating and puzzling painters in history, Hieronymus Bosch.' It's clear of course that Bosch wasn't born nor worked in Flanders, not even contemporary Flanders. Can you imagine that? Such an esteemed book and so uninformed. You see now why I take issue with 'English is the measure of English'?

My suggestion for these articles - and I'm aware that no one is going to agree with this - is to completely eliminate any reference to nationality. Jan van Eyck is then simply 'an Early Netherlandish painter' and Rubens 'a Flemish Baroque painter' which refers to the style in which they worked, just like Hans Memling, who isn't a German painter of course. 213.124.174.33 (talk) 11:26, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

To note, though not relevant to anything above, the opening sentence in the lead of the Dutch wiki reads..."Jan Van Eyck was a painter from the County of Loon, which from 1366 fell under the Principality of Liège." Now that is silly. Ceoil (talk) 14:11, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

This is an edit made by the person who made the same edits on this page and on others. Though I would say it's silly as well, because the motives of that edit were made out of nationalistic reasons, it is strictly speaking more true than to say he's Flemish. If it's silly to call Van Eyck 'from the County of Loon', then it's equally silly to call Da Vinci or Michelangelo Italian, or J.S. Bach a German. And this is my entire point: if Germans or Italians are operating out of nationalistic reasons it's apparently acceptable, but if it's done by Belgians it's 'silly'. It would be best to leave the entire nationalism out of Wikipedia, but like I discussed above Germans and Italians - among others - are never going to accept that. 213.124.174.33 (talk) 16:58, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

No I meant its silly to mention 1366 and Liège in the lead sentence, as if this was the most vital info readers need to immediately grasp. There are easy solutions to all this, if ye would calm down and get some perspective. ps, I stopped taking you seriously at "if Germans or Italians are operating out of nationalistic reasons it's apparently acceptable, but if it's done by Belgians it's 'silly'. " Ceoil (talk) 17:10, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

In case you're referring to me, I haven't edited the Dutch wikipedia about Van Eyck (which you can see if you looked at the history). It was actually the main reason I corrected the English wikipedia. I have also explained to you multiple times that I am just a student editing mistakes in Wikipedia as I am still learning the platform, hence why I made an account and don't edit anonymously. I really don't understand why you keep accusing me of nationalism, I ask you again to assume good faith. I completely agree with your discussion on this Talk-page though, Wikipedia is no place for nationalism. Wikipedia should offer correct biographical information and using the adjective 'Flemish' for Van Eyck is wrong and is misused by Flemish nationalist parties. The result is this beautiful propaganda piece: 'Travel with Rubens, Bruegel and van Eyck to their homeland Flanders, where art and creativity prevail.' (from https://www.flemishmasters.com/en/). And if anyone were to doubt that these world-renowned painters were 'Flemish', Wikipedia is here to tell them the Flemish government is right! Ingbiegeltje (talk) 09:33, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

In English, yes. Meanings in Dutch and French are different, we know. Johnbod (talk) 11:30, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

@talk,'Calm down?' Where am I not calm? The only one who seems frustrated is you. I on the other hand couldn't care less what's written in the lead. Also, what you take serious is of no relevance to me. And thirdly, yes, apparently Germans or Italians are operating with nationalistic motives when anachronistic statements like 'Leonardo da Vinci was an Italian painter' or 'Hans Memling was a German painter' are accepted. To repeat: the statement 'Hans Memling was a German painter' is objectively just as ridiculous as 'Jan van Eyck was a Belgian painter'. The only difference is that they're accepted when applied to Germans or Italians, but less so to the Low Countries.

@Ingbiegeltje, you have been editing the exact same geographical place on multiple pages, that to me is proof that you're not primarily interested in 'editing mistakes in Wikipedia', but merely into propagating a certain geographical place; namely the County of Loon (are you from Belgisch Limburg?). Apart from that, I do agree that 'using the adjective 'Flemish' for Van Eyck' is correct. But I've pointed out above that this matter is prevalent in the whole of Wikipedia, especially because it's so dominated by the Anglosphere, where they generally don't care much about the subtleties of other geographical places. 213.124.174.33 (talk) 15:52, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

How about...

• "a painter active in Bruges who was one of the early innovators of what became known as Early Netherlandish painting, and one of the most significant representatives of Early Northern Renaissance art. The surviving records of his early life indicate that he was born around 1380–1390, most likely in Maaseik (then Maaseyck, hence his name), in present-day Belgium." Ceoil (talk) 16:47, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't understand your point. Is this a suggestion? If so, I don't see anything wrong with that. If you would've read my comments thoroughly, then you would've known that I prefer to see the matter of nationality removed from Wikipedia articles in its entirety. Your description of Jan van Eyck is good in my opinion, but my point is: why are descriptions like this always necessary with painters from the Low Countries and never with painters of modern day Germany of Italy? Hans Memling is of course not a German painter, in the same way that Leonardo Da Vinci is not 'an Italian polymath'. I remember Da Vinci's page being: 'a Florentine painter' or something like that. That would be more accurate. In any case, I'm not demanding a change here, let alone changing it into 'Jan van Eyck, a Belgian painter'. I was merely pointing out that Italy as a country is a 19th century invention, in the same way that Belgium is. 213.124.174.33 (talk) 17:31, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

213, yes that is a suggestion, now implemented. To be clear, I share your point of view, and was reverting in your favour a few days back. The link to the Dutch wiki was to show how ridiculous this can become. Ceoil (talk) 17:36, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

The edit at the moment is fine in my opinion, but then again I didn't start this discussion so Ingbiegeltje's opinion might be relevant. In any case, your example is how it should be written on every page in my opinion, also those of the German and Italian painters. 213.124.174.33 (talk) 18:41, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree as well with the edit, thank you for mentioning me. I'm happy we came to a consensus. Ingbiegeltje (talk) 19:59, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

We didn't, just two non-native speakers insisting on the use (or non-use) of terms according to the meanings in their language(s). I won't fiddle with the wording, but I doubt it will last long - people expect a "nationality" however inappropriate that is, and before long he will be given one. Johnbod (talk) 20:11, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't have the time or energy myself, but maybe something could be built into WP:VAMOS. Also,have edited the Memling bio. Ceoil (talk) 20:21, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

@Johnbod, do you realize how absurd your reasoning is? Just because the majority in English seem to think that Jan van Eyck came from Flanders, he is Flemish? I thought an encyclopedia is supposed to reflect objective facts. According to your logic, whatever the people in the Anglosphere think is an objective fact. Very exemplary of the naval gazing that is going there. So apart from the fact that I don't insist on anything, it's not the meaning according to 'our' language, it's the meaning according to wherever Van Eyck objectively came from. 213.124.174.33 (talk) 13:29, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Flanders is an English word for an area of land. The area denoted has changed over time (though arguably not quite as much as in the local languages) & has always been a bit vague, in early periods very vague. As with any other word, the only "objective" meaning for "Flanders" is what people using the term think the word means. In contemporary contexts this aligns with the official Belgian definition but historically it doesn't. I told you at the top that Belgians find this maddening. No doubt there are plenty of English terms whose meaning is significantly different in Dutch. but do we complain about it, or tell you you are using the word wrongly? No, we do not. Johnbod (talk) 14:05, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

No it's not vague and you're simply wrong. There are two definitions for the word Flanders/Flemish. First of all the definition of the historical county, of which the geographical sphere has indeed changed over time, and secondly the modern region of Belgium which is called Flanders. We're not calling Immanuel Kant a Russian, because Königsberg is a Russian city now. The absurdity of your statement: 'the only "objective" meaning for "Flanders" is what people using the term think the word means' is made visible if for instance someone from North Dakota would be called a New Yorker. It would be absurd to say that if a foreigner were to make a statement like that, it would be 'the objective meaning, because that's what he thinks it means'. And with regard to your last statement: 'No doubt there are plenty of English terms whose meaning is significantly different in Dutch', could you give me examples of that? Because I don't know them. This matter reminds me Europeans calling the native Americans Indians, which is of course absurd as well. 213.124.174.33 (talk) 14:49, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Well we're not going to agree on this, so we fall back on the main point, which is what WP:RS in English say, and you've already admitted above they say "Flemish". Johnbod (talk) 01:38, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

• Just to point out that in English, "Flemish artist" doesn't mean "from the old county of Flanders" and doesn't mean "from what is now the region of Belgium called Flanders". As in Spanish, "Flanders" is also used vaguely of the whole of the Low Countries and of the whole of the Southern Netherlands (just as "Holland" is used vaguely of the whole of the Northern Netherlands). Specifically, it means "an artist working in the manner established in such artistic centres as Bruges, Lille, Mons, Antwerp and Brussels" (only Bruges and Lille being in the old county, and only Bruges and Antwerp in the modern region). "Flemish painting", "Flemish polyphony", "Flemish miniatures": none of these refer in English either to the county or to the modern region. This may be inexact and slightly archaic, but it is well established English usage. Incidentally, I welcome Johnbod's attachment to common English usage, and soon hope to see it implemented at Beeldenstorm. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 08:08, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

You are fully correct that the term Flemish is used in Spanish (albeit incorrectly) for the region that is the historic Spanish Netherlands. Van Eyck however does not originate from this region (which was then Flanders and Brabant) and the differences between the Spanish Netherlands and the Prince-Bisphoric of Liège would have no Spanish speaker mistaking him for 'Flemish'. If one were to use 'Flemish' defined by "an artist working in the manner established in such artistic centres as Bruges, Lille, Mons, Antwerp and Brussels" then Van Eyck should be called a painter from Holland as he only worked in Bruges after he was well-established and has primarily worked in his master's workshop in The Hague. Calling him Flemish means attaching a modern 'nationality' and preferring it over Holland/Liege although he would have been equally associated with the former and originated from the latter. Neither in the modern connotation nor the archaic connotation in English would it be justified to call him 'Flemish'. But labelling him Dutch/Hollandic would be equally conflicting, hence I opt for either no 'nationality' or simply the style: 'Early Netherlandish'. Ingbiegeltje (talk) 15:23, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

@Andreas Philopater & @ Ingbiegeltje, I'm aware that the word 'Flemish' is indeed used as the whole of the Low Countries, the same goes for the Italian language, many Dutch artists or scientists are referred to as Flemish or as 'Olandese', which is strictly speaking also wrong. Many people - including the Dutch themselves - still refer to the Netherlands as 'Holland'. Wikipedia, however, is aspiring to provide encyclopedic information, and in that light I think it's appropriate to be as specific as possible.

Secondly, there is in my opinion a difference between a denotation like 'Flemish polyphony' or 'Flemish primitives' (as the Early Netherlandish artists are referred to in Dutch) in comparison to 'Flemish artist'. The former refers to a stylistic period that was named as such (albeit incorrectly) at a certain period in time. The latter refers to a geographical region in which someone is born. In the case of Leonardo Da Vinci for instance, it's simply wrong to say he's 'an Italian artist'. The same goes for referring to Jan van Eyck as a Flemish artist. This implicitly means Van Eyck was born in Flanders, whereas a sentence like 'Van Eyck was part of the Flemish primitives' is merely denoting his role in a certain stylistic movement. 213.124.174.33 (talk) 17:24, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

You do realize English hasn't used "Flemish Primitives" for about a century? No, apparently not. Another Anglophone outrage. Johnbod (talk) 21:03, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Do a Google Books search for the term, restricted to the 21st century, and tell me then whether it's been used in the past 20 years. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 16:17, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Reprints and bad translators. Johnbod (talk) 16:31, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

No true Scotsman? --Andreas Philopater (talk) 18:34, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree. The only argument I see to use the adjective 'Flemish' to describe Van Eyck would be that this is customary in English as mentioned by Andreas Philopater and Johnbod. I disagree with this on two points however, while in British English there may be a tradition of (incorrectly) referring to the region of the Low Countries as 'Flemish', this is not a practice that is applied in other variants of English such as North American, Indian or international English. Not that it is relevant at all but as a native speaker of both Dutch and (American) English I have exclusively encountered North Americans using the adjective 'Dutch' to denote the Low Countries. Displaying the word Flemish would mean very little outside of Western Europe, especially if it is incorrect. Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia and should offer correct biographical information, if a certain term is well-defined but misused by a certain minority then I don't believe this is a valid argument. Just like how Encyclopedia Britannica refers to Van Eyck as 'Netherlandish', I don't see why Wikipedia should adhere to 'Flemish'. Following the argument of 'English is a measure of English' would grant us the right to describe Scotland as 'English' as well as this is very widely accepted in American English. Ingbiegeltje (talk) 17:45, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

But do American dictionaries or top academic books use these American understandings? No they do not. They use the same terms with the same senses of the British. That the general population is more (I'm searching for an alternative to "ignorant") unsure is neither here nor there. Johnbod (talk) 21:15, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Well no top academic books describe Van Eyck as Flemish either. I have extensively sought through my university's library and found no publications whatsoever that refer to Van Eyck as Flemish. The term 'Flemish Primitives', which fell out of favor decades ago, does occur in older, rare publications. In fact I bumped into the following article that perfectly explains why the use of 'Flemish' was orchestrated to promote nationalist agenda in the 20th century and they specifically highlight the case of Van Eyck (https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/renaissance-quarterly/article/flemish-versus-netherlandish-a-discourse-of-nationalism/D5F6327FC1A5C5DAFD82988AEDF828F3). In contemporary English usage I found no reference to Flemish either, the Met refers to him as from Liège (https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/eyck/hd_eyck.htm) and the National Gallery mentions only Maaseik (https://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/artists/jan-van-eyck). So I think that we can conclude that the removal of Flemish is fully supported by all available documentation, in fact the proper location of which he originated should be mentioned over anything, i.e. Liège/Loon. Ingbiegeltje (talk) 23:13, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

(ec)I don't agree, but not being Belgian I lack the stamina for these endless wrangles. I said at the top "I've no objection to rearranging so he isn't described as Flemish - Early Netherlandish painting comes in the same sentence", and Ceoil did this some time back. Whether this will last I rather doubt - drive-by editors want to see a "nationality". The use of "Flemish" for him goes back well before the 20th century, essentially borrowing from the French. I see by the way that the Google "infobox" thing, which takes most information from Wikipedia, has "Nationality: Dutch". hey ho. Johnbod (talk) 16:31, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

• "This stunning compilation of the work of Jan van Eyck, the master Flemish painter, is being published to coincide with a once-in-a-lifetime exhibition in Ghent", Till-Holger Borchert et al., Van Eyck (Thames & Hudson, 2020). --Andreas Philopater (talk) 16:22, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Indeed. Johnbod (talk) 16:31, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

That is not a quote from the book but the description the publisher attached to highlight the 'Flemish masters' expo currently organised by the Flemish government to promote the 'Flemish' identity as I have linked above. Borchert is also the curator for this 'Flemish masters' expo so this definitely is not a reliable source in this matter. Ingbiegeltje (talk) 19:21, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

But if it were bad English, Thames & Hudson would not use it. And that's the only question: is it bad English? --Andreas Philopater (talk) 20:17, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

There is a clear conflict of interest in their use of the word Flemish, they do not use it because it is customary in English but rather because they were commissioned by the Flemish government to do so. I cite from VRT:' Kijk ook bijvoorbeeld naar het beleid rond de Vlaamse meesters", zegt Schramme. Die ziet Jambon als "het uithangbord van de grootsheid die Vlaanderen in zich heeft", en wil hij meer in het buitenland aanprijzen. In 2020 wordt daarvoor schilder Jan Van Eyck speciaal in de kijker gezet. ' and from the website of the expo: 'Travel with Rubens, Bruegel and van Eyck to their homeland Flanders, where art and creativity prevail.'. I would like to conclude with the following statement by professor Jacques Van Keymeulen: 'Indien de gebroeders Van Eyck, schilders van het Lam Gods, werkelijk van Maaseik afkomstig waren, dan ze zouden geprotesteerd hebben, mocht iemand ze Vlamingen hebben genoemd'. Ingbiegeltje (talk) 20:45, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that's just paranoid nonsense. The use of "Flemish" on this page, or in English more generally, is not due to some separatist conspiracy by one faction of Belgians. You have consensus here for using some alternative to "Flemish" in the text on this page (with "early Netherlandish" having some support, despite being academic jargon that few English speakers will recognise), but that does not extend to the categories (where you will have to launch a separate conversation about the categories themselves) and does not extend to your wider crusade to rid the English Wikipedia of "Flemish" when not used specifically of the old county or current region, as it sometimes is in standard English. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 13:03, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Nobody is talking of conspiracies or being paranoid. I merely explained (with direct sources) how your misquote of Borchert is a clear conflict of interest. If you can demonstrate that 'Flemish' is indeed the common denotation of Van Eyck in academia then please do so as I have not found anything academic from the past 30 years, the standard term seems to be (Early) Netherlandish. Examples:

'This exhibition has two principal objectives: to put the Metropolitan Museum's extraordinary collection of early Netherlandish painting at center sage and, in so doing, to reexamine the qualities that make the period from Van Eyck to Bruegel one of the pivotal moments in the history of Western art.' source: From Van Eyck to Bruegel: Early Netherlandish Painting in the Metropolitan Museum of Art

'Van Eyck to Dürer: The Influence of Early Netherlandish Painting on European Art' by Til Borchert, the same curator of the current 'Flemish masters' expo.

I think it is jargon that only you do not recognize, why would an American or Australian reader of this page know what 'Flemish' is and not 'Netherlandish'? The first is a region and the second a country and the centuries-old synonym of the low countries. If I could remove all bias of Wikipedia I would gladly embark on that crusade tho. Ingbiegeltje (talk) 15:03, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Is anybody suggesting a change to the current article, or should this conversation be held elsewhere. Ceoil (talk) 15:11, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Till Holger is globally recognised as the world's leading expert in van Eyck's work. Out of full disclosure, I'm on the edge of the Warburg Institute, the global centre for Renaissance research, and working with him on a breakthrough I've made in the roots of the Renaissance. I am also great-nephew of Senator Ferdinand Massaert, the leader of the French faction in the language war of the 1960s.

A neutral solution would be to use the correct contemporary term for the power base of the era, which is Burgundian. According to my erstwhile boss Jean Schoysman, a fully-qualified legal translator into Flemish, the Dutch language continued to develop where Flemish did not, in about 1900. The point is, however, irrelevant here: it is quite possible for a reader of late Middle English, of Chaucer's day, to read the Brabantse Yeesten, written in the very similar Middle Dutch. 5.70.112.105 (talk) 15:28, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

No, that certainly does NOT make any sense. Nobody ever describes Van Eyck as being "Burgundian". The term "Burgundian" in this age is mainly a political denomination for the lands of the French Valois princes who inherited these areas, and not an ethnic or nationbality denomination. This proposed so-called neutral solution brings us even farther from a solution. -- fdewaele, 21 August 2022, 23:05 CET..

Earlier first record

Please check Bernard Guenée's biography of Pierre d'Ailly in Beyond Church and State: the lives of Four French Prelates. He reports van Eyck alongside Guillaume Dufay in d'Ailly's retinue at the Papal Council he was the Convenor of, in Konstanz (1414-18). 5.70.112.105 (talk) 15:11, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Incomplete sentence?

This sentence is found in the "Works" section of the article:

In 1998 Holland Cotter estimated that "only two dozen or so paintings...attributed...with varying degrees of confidence, along with some drawings and a few pages from...the Turin-Milan Hours".

There seems to be something missing there, to conclude the sentence and quote? Did the quote have something like "can be attributed", but that's been cut out? Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 20:30, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Origin of his name?

The article gives contradictory explanations of his name. In the lead:

"The surviving records indicate that he was born around 1380 or 1390, in Maaseik (then Maaseyck, hence his name''),"

But that is contradicted in the "Early life" section:

"He was identified in the late 16th century as having been born in Maaseik, a borough of the prince-bishopric of Liège. His last name however is related to the place Bergeijk,

Can this contradiction be resolved? Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 20:34, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! I have removed the Bergeijk part, as it was unsourced here, and based on the work of one Dutch historian who has been debunked by other historians and art historians (see e.g. here. Fram (talk) 08:49, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Glad to help. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 13:22, 9 January 2024 (UTC)