Talk:James C. Kulhanek

Deletion of Portrait Section

@Woodroar had mentioned on the edits: "removing WP:LLM addition; sources appear to be fake, often dated before the event they're supposedly reporting on." I know that actual newspaper articles were used for the citations and that a LLM wasn't used. However, I'm interested to know their concerns and to see if there's a way to salvage the text. The Kucinich portrait incident is an interesting intersection between local government and art in Cleveland. Hamaxides (talk) 21:57, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for starting the discussion! I first suspected AI (or perhaps a hoax) when I saw that several of the dates are off—"off" as in "impossible". The sentence beginning In December 1989 cites a source from 1980. Paintings were exhibited between October 10 and 15, 1977 cited September 25, 1977. Another between March 5 and 31, 1978 cited March 5, 1978. (Is that an announcement of the exhibition? The title suggests it is. If so, that's no more helpful than a press release. A better source would be a journalist reporting on the exhibition.) Another clue (to me) was the lack of links to sources, as we often find with fabricated AI-generated text. Of course, offline sources are acceptable, but Google searches for the titles don't turn up anything. It's simply inconcievable to me that none of these sources have been archived somewhere—not by Newsbank, not by Newspapers.com, not by anything searchable in Google. Individual searches at Newsbank turned up no results as well. I mean, I'm having trouble getting results for the authors of these articles. Everything here points to AI or a hoax. I'm sorry if that's not the case, but I remain unconvinced.

If sources are found, much of the text will have to be rewritten to follow what the sources say. I'm also concerned that this much text is undue for the page on James C. Kulhanek. That single section was about 3.5 times as large as the rest of the article. Is this one painting of such long-lasting importance? I doubt it. A Google search for "James Kulhanek" "Dennis Kucinich" returns exactly 2 results, this Wikipedia article and this article at case.edu which appears to have been written by the artist's son. Woodroar (talk) 22:50, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

This is very helpful. I appreciate your providing details and suggestions. I can easily understand your concerns about AI/hoax; however, I've seen the print articles that are cited so they do exist. I'll dig around and see if I can find anything online, but some of these smaller newspapers just aren't of interest to the online databases and repositories. Would providing quotes within the references be of help as well if those offline sources are included? Also, it generally sounds your other suggestion is to pare back the section to the essential information? All that said, I find the incident interesting with the intersection of a private citizen and three local Cleveland administrations (Kucinich, White, and Campbell). Thanks again for engaging on this. I'm seeing this as a learning opportunity. Hamaxides (talk) 14:23, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

I was finally able to find some of these sources on Newsbank's searchable archive of the Plain Dealer. Quotes might help find them all. That being said, most of the mentions were pretty trivial and routine, like a one-sentence announcement about an exhibition (or even a sentence covering multiple exhibitions). Personally, I think the appropriate due weight for these exhibitions would be a sentence or two covering them all. More than that would really need to be supported by full, standalone articles covering the exhibitions—if such articles exist. The "Work" section would be appropriate for any exhibition mentions, I'd think. I did also find this article at Cleveland.com which looks back at the portrait story from a distance; it devotes only three paragraph-sentences to Kulhanek, which again suggests this isn't a big deal that requires an entire section. It also suggests that there's a controversial, "he said, she said" element to this story. As Dennis Kucinich is alive, that means our policy on content about living persons is a factor, and it would require coverage in high-quality, reputable outlets.

To make a long story short (too late), my suggestion would be to add a sentence or two covering the exhibitions in the "Work" section; those can certainly be cited to the Plain Dealer (cleveland.newsbank.com links would be helpful in those citations). As for the portrait story, I'd also suggest summarizing that into a sentence or two, closely following the Cleveland.com source, and put that in the "Work" section as well. That's just my POV after looking through what sources I could find. If you'd like a second (or more) opinion, I'd be happy to post a neutral message at a noticeboard, like WP:NPOVN—which would cover discussions about how to summarize the claims found in reliable sources. Woodroar (talk) 15:55, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

"To make a long story short (too late)" LOL! Both short and long versions are appreciated. Those are good suggestions, especially the note about the living persons factor. Several sentences in the "Work" section seems to be the direction to head. Thank you again. This has been very helpful. Hamaxides (talk) 16:16, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm glad to help! If there's anything you want me to look over before incorporating that, I'd be glad to. Otherwise, feel free to add it and if it needs any tinkering, I'm sure I or someone else will eventually come along and do that. Cheers! Woodroar (talk) 17:08, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Added in one-line mention of Kucinich portrait. Hamaxides (talk) 14:35, 29 July 2023 (UTC)