Talk:James Bruce, 8th Earl of Elgin

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Untitled

I added the burning of the Old Summer Palace in Beijing to Lord Elgin's 'accomplishments'. I find it rather incredible that an article like this would seek to downplay such vandalism (it took 3,500 troops to do the deed) as though it were a trivial and casual footnote to the man's life, emphasising instead his 'respectable' achievements. The article seems to be written from a European/North American POV.

However, my edit was reverted by user:John Kenney, who describes himself as a history graduate student studying modern European history. I appreciate that the destruction of the Old Summer Palace may not be gripping stuff from the point of view of European history, but it is still an emotional issue for the Chinese and continues to play a role in Chinese perceptions of/relations with the West. I submit that the place of people like Lord Elgin in history should not be judged from a purely Eurocentric point of view.

Bathrobe

In what sense did the article previously downplay this deed? The introductory paragraph is describing who Lord Elgin was, not what he did. He did a lot of things, and there's no reason to over-emphasize this one particular action, which was already described in the text. If you want to add more detail in the appropriate place, I won't object, but I see no reason to add pretty much the exact same text in two different parts of the article. And the ad hominem is completely unnecessary. Bathrobe has no idea whether I think the destruction of the Old Summer Palace is gripping or not, and I don't like to have my motives imputed. john k 14:47, 26 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your prompt response. The first paragraph notes that he is 'best known as Governor General of the Province of Canada and Viceroy of India'. This information is repeated and expanded in the second paragraph.

It also notes that 'His second wife was Lady Mary Louisa Lambton, daughter of Lord Durham, the author of the groundbreaking Report on the Affairs of British North America (1839), and niece of the Colonial Secretary, Henry George Grey, 3rd Earl Grey.' The fact that his second wife's father wrote a 'groundbreaking report' sets his place in the British elite of the time and might be relevant to his role as Governor General of the Province of Canada but seems a selective presentation of the facts concerning 'who he was'.

Going to the capital city of a nation half way round the globe and deliberately destroying its principal seat of government seems to me a pretty controversial sort of action, no matter what else he did during his life. I can't see that placing it in the first paragraph is 'overemphasising' it.

Bathrobe

Well, the article needs work, certainly. In terms of his marriage, I think that stuff should probably be separated into its own paragraph. That said, it would be much more constructive for you to add details about the destruction of the Summer Palace (and Elgin's missions to China generally, which were multiple and quite eventful and are barely discussed here). If we're going to discuss the Summer Palace issue, we should mention, as the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography does, that Elgin saw the burning of the palace as a step which would specifically strike the Emperor, and not the people of China. It should also be mentioned that Elgin was generally skeptical of British policy towards East Asia, even as he was carrying it out. If you have access to it, I recommend taking a look at the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography entry on Elgin, which is much much better than our entry (unsurprisingly - most ODNB entries are). If you can't access it, I can send you the text by email. john k 17:46, 26 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I'm up to writing the entire article -- I just feel a change in overall emphasis is in order. However, you make a very constructive suggestion; it would be good to have more information in order to give a more rounded view of this event and the circumstances that surrounded it (rather than just demonising the Earl of Elgin). True, what he did was pretty bad from today's standards (although maybe not, given Iraq, etc.). Only from the point of view of a 19th century colonialist could the burning down of the Summer Palace be justified as 'punishing the emperor'. I would be very interested in seeing the text of the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. I presume I should supply an email address.

Bathrobe 08:24, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Bruce Trail (or peninsula), Ontario, I believe was named in his honour correct? Canking 19:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Of course the Bruce Peninsula was named for James Bruce, and the peninsula is in Bruce County, Ontario, too. See these two articles.47.215.183.159 (talk) 06:26, 23 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Childhood and Family

I miss some informations about his childhood and his family - father, mother, silblings, wife, children of his own and so on. Why are this informations not in the article ? --AndreaMimi (talk) 13:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Schools named after him in Ontario

Does anyone know why there is a school in nearly every town or city in Ontario named after Lord Elgin, and why it seems to always be the techical school of the community ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.29.12 (talk) 15:00, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

KCSI

I'm deleting the KCSI postnominal and removing Elgin from Category:Knights Commander of the Order of the Star of India. As he died before the expansion of the Order in 1866 he couldn't have been a Knight Commander anyway, and though he was ex officio Grand Master as Viceroy I don't think that would automatically make him a Knight Companion - compare the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, who was ex officio GM of the Order of St Patrick but frequently not himself a Knight Companion. Opera hat (talk) 11:11, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lieutenant Governor

James Bruce was never the Lieutenant Governor anywhere, Quebec or Ontario. A different Mr. Bruce WAS the Lt. Governor of Quebec, in a different century, the 20th.47.215.183.159 (talk) 06:33, 23 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Governer General?

I think he was only a Viceroy of India, Canning being the last Governor General and then Viceroy himself. alaymehta (talk) 19:36, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The position of Governor General was continued by the Government of India Act 1858. Technically, there were two positions, held by one person. The GovGen was appointed under statute and governed those parts of India under direct British control ("British India"). The Viceroy was appointed under the royal prerogative, and exercised the Crown's suzerainty over the Indian princes and their territories. See: Governor-General of India; Government of India Act 1858. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 21:52, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]